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Blue Ribbon "conditioned" Flying Eagle - an automatic NGC details grade?

Started by VMN-migration,

26 posts in this topic

VMN-migration

VMN-migration

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Here is the story: I've been negotiating to purchase an uncirculated 1857 FE cent (56 obv. die - Snow 2) from a gentleman with a large and valuable IHC collection. After finally coming to terms and scheduling another meeting, the guy tells me that the coin is "oiled up and ready to go" with Blue Ribbon "Coin Conditioner" being the so-called "oil" used. I am not yet sure how it was applied or if he damaged the coin while doing so. Assuming that the coin is undamaged, I need to know if this will cause NGC to automatically assign a details designation?

 

I am very familiar with and have used Blue Ribbon countless times, yet only on copper/copper-nickel coins that were most likely not ever going to be submitted by their respective buyers. If anyone has had an experience and/or knowledge of coins in this situation, any and all input will be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

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L1ncolnF4n

L1ncolnF4n

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Make sure to use 100% pure acetone with no additives though. Dab just a bit on a q-tip and very lightly make a cirlce pattern on both sides and dab dry. Don't use any pressure on it. I've used BR on many of my cents and never had a problem.

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jom

jom

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I'm curious...I've heard of BR and I do not collect copper (in general) so I'm wondering what is the exact purpose of putting this stuff on coins? Isn't this kind of dangerous? I mean, copper is pretty reactive.... hm

 

jom

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BillJones

BillJones

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I'm curious...I've heard of BR and I do not collect copper (in general) so I'm wondering what is the exact purpose of putting this stuff on coins? Isn't this kind of dangerous? I mean, copper is pretty reactive.... hm

 

jom

 

Blue Ribbon provides a protective coating for copper that inhibits corrosion. An earlier product called CARE is even more worshiped by some copper collectors. Both provide a gloss that makes the coins look better in photographs.

 

If left bare, copper coins will develop a coating from the atmosphere than can lead to damage. According to those who like Blue Ribbon and the like, the stuff inhibits that development.

 

Given the fact that copper-nickel coins are actually 88% copper, I don’t know that a coat of Blue Ribbon would hurt, but it might look odd and cause trouble in the grading room.

 

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VMN-migration

VMN-migration

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Blue Ribbon supposedly prevents corrosion on copper. It also can help to remove dirt/grime "without damage" and gives that "wet look" many collectors seem to desire. Generally speaking, unless one is a true purist, it's great stuff for lower-value and/or circulated coins. However, it also contains CFCs and is no longer made.

 

As for using acetone, I have heard of this method before. Thanks to everyone for their confirmation that this indeed does work. Any idea where pure acetone is available?

 

First things first. As I have no idea how the Blue Ribbon was applied to the coin, a thorough re-examination of the coin is in order. I actually sold him to bottle and did not give detailed instructions on how to properly use it (regrettably), so this one very well could come back to bite me.

 

So is it safe to assume that if the Blue Ribbon were simply left on the coin, it would be an automatic details?

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Hard Times

Hard Times

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I have coppers sent in to NGC with BR on them, they graded in the correct grades. Do not use a Q-Tip to apply the acetone if your FE is MS. You WILL get hairlines. You WILL ruin the coin forever. This is something the Jerry Bobbe, he of Conder fame, is trying to tell all copper folks misled by EACers about the use of Q-Tips to apply stuff to coppers. He notes that hairlines are unavoidable in such cases. Dip the FE in a beaker of acetone instead....

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Hard Times

Hard Times

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I forgot to add, it is probably already ruined anyway if the owner used a Q-Tip to apply the BR...... Check the surfaces for hairlines with a magnifying lens.

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L1ncolnF4n

L1ncolnF4n

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I forgot to add, it is probably already ruined anyway if the owner used a Q-Tip to apply the BR...... Check the surfaces for hairlines with a magnifying lens.

 

You don't actually need to touch the q-tip to the coin if you use one, just let the acetone form a drop between them (soak the q-tip and hold it just above the coin, not in contact but the acetone will make a drop on the coin you can move by the cohesive [read: clumping] properties of the liquid). If the coin's high enough grade for hairlines to be relevant to grading, then use plastic foreceps on the rim and dip in a bath then clean with distilled water like the others said.

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Hard Times

Hard Times

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I forgot to add, it is probably already ruined anyway if the owner used a Q-Tip to apply the BR...... Check the surfaces for hairlines with a magnifying lens.

 

You don't actually need to touch the q-tip to the coin if you use one, just let the acetone form a drop between them (soak the q-tip and hold it just above the coin, not in contact but the acetone will make a drop on the coin you can move by the cohesive [read: clumping] properties of the liquid). If the coin's high enough grade for hairlines to be relevant to grading, then use plastic foreceps on the rim and dip in a bath then clean with distilled water like the others said.

 

Very good recommendation!

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James_OldeTowne

James_OldeTowne

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So is it safe to assume that if the Blue Ribbon were simply left on the coin, it would be an automatic details?

There surely has to be thousands up on thousands of copper coins with Blue Ribbon certified with straight grades. I have heard that from time to time, the TPGs will suddenly reject such coins, but .... maybe that's probably to get resubmissions to help boost revenues hm ?

 

lol

 

I have some cents that have had BR on them since I owned them - going on twenty years, and the coins look exactly as they did way back then.

 

As to whether or not it "improves" the look of copper, that's debatable. I am not at all a fan of the glossy "wet" look, but if applied VERY sparingly, your copper coin will not look ridiculous, just slightly more lustrous than it did.

 

The stuff is extremely tough to get these days, and I paid DEARLY for my last bottle, but I used it very rarely anyhow. In my experience, it does a superb job of removing contaminants from copper, zapping PVC, and as mentioned, it protects the coin, essentially immunizing it from potential environmental effects.

 

I cannot recommend its PROPER usage enough. It will even conserve and protect silver, though I really dislike the look of glossy silver, even more than I dislike glossy copper.

 

Great thread, by the way!

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Conder101

Conder101

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If it has a "wet" look then too much remains on the coin.

 

As for the acetone for removal, skip the q-tip, skip the forceps, just hold the coin by the edge like you are supposed to and swish it around in a bowl of acetone (make sure to reposition your fingers at least once and swish again. Then finish with a flowing rinse of acetone by pouring fresh acetone over it while you hold it. Reposition and rinse again. The flowing rinse is important. When the coin is removed from the dip/bath there will still be traces of the BR disolved in the acetone on the coin and will be left behind when the acetone evaporates. The flowing rinses washes these last traces away. Yes acetone is a chemical and it can be absorbed through the skin, but it is not that hazardous and unless you are going to bathe in it or drink it it is not going to harm you unless you are already suffering from kidney failure and you are rinsing a LOT of coins.

 

Where to get pure acetone? Most any paint department in a hardware store or Wal-Mart.

 

A coin that has been treated with BR can get graded (sometimes even those with too much on them) but don't expect to get it past the PCGS Secure Plus sniffer. It will be able to detect it.

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Swede-migration

Swede-migration

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How about the use of lens paper rather than a q-tip? Obviously, one must never scrub or even use pressure, but as a blot, I'd think lens paper with a bit of acetone would work well at removing tape, glue, oils (from fingerprints especially) and other contaminants.

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physics-fan3.14

physics-fan3.14

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As I have shown in previous articles, you can bear down all you want with a Q-tip and not leave traces. I tried this on a proof copper-nickel coin, and not a scratch. Prove it to yourself on some pocket change; obviously, I wouldn't recommend much pressure on a valuable coin. However, proper application of a Q-tip should not damage a coin.

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VMN-migration

VMN-migration

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First, please allow me to apologize for the "wet look" comment used when describing Blue Ribbon. This was a poor choice of words and an over-generalization on my part. What I should have said is that in my experience, "wet look" coins are relatively popular with many basic, non-serious copper collectors, but of course not everyone feels the same way. Sorry for any confusion.

 

As for the coin in-question, I've not examined her since the Blue Ribbon was used. I can only testify to the state of the coin the last time I saw her. I have no idea how the B.R. was applied or if any damage was done during the application. Tomorrow (Friday 7/29) is D-Day, and even though I will thoroughly re-examine the coin before making a decision buy or walk away, I needed to gather as much information as possible before our final meeting. My interest in this example rests mostly in the die variety, as opposed to the type/date. This is why my concern over the BR is much greater than it otherwise would be. Thanks to everyone for sharing your thoughts and/or opinions.

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L1ncolnF4n

L1ncolnF4n

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As I have shown in previous articles, you can bear down all you want with a Q-tip and not leave traces. I tried this on a proof copper-nickel coin, and not a scratch. Prove it to yourself on some pocket change; obviously, I wouldn't recommend much pressure on a valuable coin. However, proper application of a Q-tip should not damage a coin.

 

It makes sense to me that any contact could potentially marr a proof, but think about the hardness of metal versus Q-tip...there shouldn't be a way to leave a mark.

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PerryHall

PerryHall

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As I have shown in previous articles, you can bear down all you want with a Q-tip and not leave traces. I tried this on a proof copper-nickel coin, and not a scratch. Prove it to yourself on some pocket change; obviously, I wouldn't recommend much pressure on a valuable coin. However, proper application of a Q-tip should not damage a coin.

 

It makes sense to me that any contact could potentially marr a proof, but think about the hardness of metal versus Q-tip...there shouldn't be a way to leave a mark.

 

What if the Q-tip picked up a piece of abrasive grit such as a fine sand particle from the coin and then you rubbed it accross the surface of the coin? Wouldn't a hairline scratch result?

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relicsncoins

relicsncoins

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Q tips are not nescessary. Put about a quarter inch of acetone in GLASS bowl. place the coin in the bowl, and gently swish the acetone around for a minute or so. Flip the coin over and repeat. Rinse in running water for a minute or so, and pat dry.

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L1ncolnF4n

L1ncolnF4n

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As I have shown in previous articles, you can bear down all you want with a Q-tip and not leave traces. I tried this on a proof copper-nickel coin, and not a scratch. Prove it to yourself on some pocket change; obviously, I wouldn't recommend much pressure on a valuable coin. However, proper application of a Q-tip should not damage a coin.

 

It makes sense to me that any contact could potentially marr a proof, but think about the hardness of metal versus Q-tip...there shouldn't be a way to leave a mark.

 

What if the Q-tip picked up a piece of abrasive grit such as a fine sand particle from the coin and then you rubbed it accross the surface of the coin? Wouldn't a hairline scratch result?

 

Like I said, the proof finish could be abraded, but a BS coin souldn't be damaged, metal is much harder than sand. Thus another reason to use medical grade equipment. I won't argue that it's the best way to treat a coin, just a very efficient and cheap way.

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relicsncoins

relicsncoins

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As I have shown in previous articles, you can bear down all you want with a Q-tip and not leave traces. I tried this on a proof copper-nickel coin, and not a scratch. Prove it to yourself on some pocket change; obviously, I wouldn't recommend much pressure on a valuable coin. However, proper application of a Q-tip should not damage a coin.

 

It makes sense to me that any contact could potentially marr a proof, but think about the hardness of metal versus Q-tip...there shouldn't be a way to leave a mark.

 

What if the Q-tip picked up a piece of abrasive grit such as a fine sand particle from the coin and then you rubbed it accross the surface of the coin? Wouldn't a hairline scratch result?

 

Like I said, the proof finish could be abraded, but a BS coin souldn't be damaged, metal is much harder than sand. Thus another reason to use medical grade equipment. I won't argue that it's the best way to treat a coin, just a very efficient and cheap way.

 

Not nescessarily. Sand is a generic term used to describe material that has eroded down to small pieces. It has a range of minerals in it, but a large majority of it is silica aka quartz, which falls at 7 on the hardness scale. Metals especially gold, copper and silver are far softer ranging in the 2 to 4 range.

 

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L1ncolnF4n

L1ncolnF4n

Posted
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As I have shown in previous articles, you can bear down all you want with a Q-tip and not leave traces. I tried this on a proof copper-nickel coin, and not a scratch. Prove it to yourself on some pocket change; obviously, I wouldn't recommend much pressure on a valuable coin. However, proper application of a Q-tip should not damage a coin.

 

It makes sense to me that any contact could potentially marr a proof, but think about the hardness of metal versus Q-tip...there shouldn't be a way to leave a mark.

 

What if the Q-tip picked up a piece of abrasive grit such as a fine sand particle from the coin and then you rubbed it accross the surface of the coin? Wouldn't a hairline scratch result?

 

Like I said, the proof finish could be abraded, but a BS coin souldn't be damaged, metal is much harder than sand. Thus another reason to use medical grade equipment. I won't argue that it's the best way to treat a coin, just a very efficient and cheap way.

 

Not nescessarily. Sand is a generic term used to describe material that has eroded down to small pieces. It has a range of minerals in it, but a large majority of it is silica aka quartz, which falls at 7 on the hardness scale. Metals especially gold, copper and silver are far softer ranging in the 2 to 4 range.

 

Perhaps. However if you take a q-tip right out of the package when you're not out on the beach, you should be good.

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Hard Times

Hard Times

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As I have shown in previous articles, you can bear down all you want with a Q-tip and not leave traces. I tried this on a proof copper-nickel coin, and not a scratch. Prove it to yourself on some pocket change; obviously, I wouldn't recommend much pressure on a valuable coin. However, proper application of a Q-tip should not damage a coin.

 

It makes sense to me that any contact could potentially marr a proof, but think about the hardness of metal versus Q-tip...there shouldn't be a way to leave a mark.

 

What if the Q-tip picked up a piece of abrasive grit such as a fine sand particle from the coin and then you rubbed it accross the surface of the coin? Wouldn't a hairline scratch result?

 

Like I said, the proof finish could be abraded, but a BS coin souldn't be damaged, metal is much harder than sand. Thus another reason to use medical grade equipment. I won't argue that it's the best way to treat a coin, just a very efficient and cheap way.

 

Not nescessarily. Sand is a generic term used to describe material that has eroded down to small pieces. It has a range of minerals in it, but a large majority of it is silica aka quartz, which falls at 7 on the hardness scale. Metals especially gold, copper and silver are far softer ranging in the 2 to 4 range.

 

Perhaps. However if you take a q-tip right out of the package when you're not out on the beach, you should be good.

 

I was following the EAC advice for applying Blue Ribbon to BU copper by rotating a Q-TIP (wooden stemmed) lightly over the surfaces. Then I read the article from Jerry Bobbe in the CTCC journal about how this leaves hairlines. Sho'nuf, looking at them under a mag lens, there were hairlines but you had to get the light reflecting at just the right angle. So if anyone wants to do this, and believes they are not damaging the surfaces, be my guest. And, I was not on the beach and there were no particles of anything involved, just the fiber of the Q-TIP.

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