Question about Full bell lines, full steps, full torch, etc. posted by 9sec93lx

[CSJournals-migration]

Why don't proof coins get these designations.

 

As a collector of primarily proof coins, mostly raw but a few of them graded. I've noticed that proof coins don't seem to be recognized by the major grading companies NGC,PCGS and the others as having full bell lines, FT,FB,FS,etc. Why is this? Or do they grade them as such and I've just not seen any for sale?

It would seem to me to be just as relevant a grading criteria for proof coins as well as mint state ones. Any thoughts or comments on this matter would be appreciated. Thanks

 

PS Buy some silver or gold ASAP for your future as well as your families. Here's a shot of a few pieces I've accumulated over the past few years 700 oz.s and counting.

 

See more journals by 9sec93lx

[coinsbygary]

I'm not positive about this, but I think the reason proof coins do not get these designations is that these things are not typically an issue with them. Proof coins are produced with specially polished blanks and dies. Furthermore, I think each coin is double struck, resulting in FS, FT, FBL, etc. on every coin. On the other hand business strike coins are cranked out, often resulting in strikes that are less than optimum. Thus, coins that are well struck are noticeably scarcer, demanding a higher market premium.

Gary

[2centsalMD-migration]

Hey, That's a very good question. I personally agree with the theory that those aren't issues with proof coins also. My question is do they grade a proof coin that has an error and print it on the label. I realize it's an extra fee for business coins, but I'm not sure about Proofs. I guess it would be your choice on errors but like I said before, a given for things like FBL and Full Steps on proofs.

If regular coins are struck once, then how do they sometimes get doubled? I know Proofs are struck 2-3 times , hence the high grade and also struck on a different machine which makes them so detailed and flawless.

 

[Sarah coins-migration]

From my own personal experience I have found that Anacs at least in the past will add Full Steps to proof coins and Full torch, but PCGS will not. When they PCGS answered the question to me they stated that all proofs should have full steps and full bell lines etc. If any thing a few coins may not be so.

When I explained to them that this was not true, the person I was talking with on the phone was not a collector and was just reading off of a note or something to that effect. As far as NGC, I have no knowledge at all of there policy on this.

Some collectors may not know that some Special Mint coins like the ones from 65 to 67 are not full steps. And if you find a SMS 65 nickel with full steps, you indeed have a rare coin.

I have sent in a handful of coins in hoping to have them indicate the full steps, but they will not. So I sit at home with my slabbed full step coins and have no recognition for them.

One other very important fact that I think needs to be known is that the grading standard for full steps is different for NGC and PCGS. If you remember that NGC does give a 6 full step or a 5 full step designation on the holders. Where PCGS only gives recognition for coins if they meet a minimum of 5 steps or above. So if you want a rarer coin, look for and buy a 6 full step NGC coin over a PCGS full step coin!

[Merlin8*]

Hello Friends, Gary & 2cents are right on, the FH(Full Head), FSB(Full Split Band) & FBL (Full Bell Line) designations are given to those coins in their series that display a full or nearly full strike and since proof coins are typically struck two or three times as Gary mentioned and under higher pressures and slower speeds strike issues such as those mentioned above are not an issue with proof coins. Since all originally intended strike characteristics are present in proof coins that is the reason you don't see those designations on proof coins as they should not exist.

 

I can't think of a strike error attributed to a proof coin series can you? All the coins that come to mind are business strikes, the bugs bunny in the franklin series, the 2008 reverse silver eagle, 1955 lincoln, and the morgan tail feather varieties.

 

If your interested in info about the half dollar series I would highly recommend "The Guidebook of Franklin & Kennedy Half Dollars" by Rick Tomaska. Everything you ever wanted or thought you wanted to know about the series in in that book strikes, valuations, mintages and history. I just got mine this weekend from Amazon for $13.57 check it out.

 

Larry

 

[coinman1794]

For the most part, Proof coinage does not need to be classified as "Full (anything)." Proof coins are specially prepared; struck multiple times under higher pressure, to ensure a complete strike. Very rarely does a Proof coin not demonstrate FBL, FS, FT, etc., and it would be redundant to label the designations.

 

[Merlin8*]

The SMS coins do fall in the grey area the Kennedy SMS MS Cameos come to mind they are not proof coins they are mint state. I like the contradiction MS cameo so I collect them.

[2centsalMD-migration]

I agree with what your saying. It should be a given however that a proof should have Full Steps, FBL or full anything. What I don't like about PCGS is they don't show Pictures of the coin, not mine anyways. Every Proof should grade a MS-60 to MS-70.Therefore it should have full steps, full bell lines etc.

The only way a proof would grade lower is if it is a very old coin that was circulated.

[9sec93lx-migration]

As a long time collector of proof coins, I understand what everyone is saying about them (supposedly) being completely struck. This certainly does apply to coins struck within the last 20 years or so. But check out a lot of proofs from the 40's and 50's even a lot of 60's era coins and full steps are indeed the exception, not the rule. The same goes for franklin halves, there are a lot of weak bell line coins out there believe me. This is why you don't see very many early proofs graded pf 69 or 70. Because of the weak strikes is my guess. I know they are struck twice and all that. But I think the mint tended to use the dies a little too long sometimes. Deep cameo coins are everywhere now-a-days, not so much 30 or 40 years ago. Just my .02 worth to be sure. Something I've noticed in my years of collecting.

[coinsbygary]

Re-thinking this issue, these things may be determined by demand in the hobby and marketplace. For instance if enough people are willing to pay more for FBL, then they will demand that the third-party-graders recognize this and put it on their labels. This has the effect of protecting both the sellers and buyers, thus preserving the integrity of the hobby. Another example is the VAM's associated with Morgan Dollars. Due to the popularity and the following in this series along with dozens of ever so slight varieties, the hobby has demanded the grading services recognize VAM's. For certain VAM's the marketplace also recognizes this by the premium prices these coins can get. When it comes to classic proofs, there is both a smaller following and supply. This coupled with higher values, and the issue of FBL, etc. on proof coins, is simply not relevant to most collectors. However, people do care about the proof, cameo, and ultra-cameo designations and the marketplace adjusts for the cost premiums accordingly. This is only a theory of mine and my 2-cents after reading the entries in this thread.

Gary

[9sec93lx-migration]

Thanks to all for your input on this matter. I definitely subscribe to the Q. David Bowers "Buy the coin not the holder" school of coin purchasing. I guess what I'm asking for would just unnecessarily complicate things, kinda like the CAC & SITYS (See I told You So) stickers do now. Meanwhile I'll keep my eyes peeled for that elusive "perfect" older proof coin out there.

Tommy

[GSA_Gem_Quest]

Sweet stash of silver!!

[9sec93lx-migration]

Sweet stash of silver!!

Thanks!

Everyone should have one started by now, if you don't already have one.