1964-D Peace Dollar

[dcarr]

I think this issue is quite convoluted, legally and numismatically, on many levels. I think this is actually part of the allure (for some) of these coins.

 

Obviously, I think the writers of the various statutes involved, never considered the possibility of this kind of scenario:

 

>>>

A genuine US legal-tender coin, of a type not currently in general use, is modified by a non-government entity to show a later (but already passed) date - a date that did appear on some coins of the same design type, but those later-dated coins were never released, and were all subsequently destroyed and declared by the government to be illegal to own.

 

The altered-date coins are then sold, with full disclosure of the alterations, to collectors at a price above face value.

<<<

 

Ultimately, it comes down to this: Who, if anyone, was harmed by this activity, and if any harm was done, who would be responsible ?

 

US Government:

The US Government is harmed in cases of currency counterfeiting. The act of passing a false legal-tender instrument has the effect of diluting the value of the general currency. In the case of these coins, no harm is done because no additional legal-tender is created - existing Peace Silver Dollars are converted one-for-one. Income taxes are paid on gains from this activity.

 

Non-Collectors (those without particular knowledge of coins):

These people would be unlikely to exchange any significant amount of money for such a coin. To them, it is just an older dollar. If they accept it for face value, then there is no harm because they could easily exchange it with someone else. Maybe they recently saw older silver dollars for sale at $20 in the antique mall. If they bought the coin for $20 there would still be no harm done since the value of the coin would likely be at least that.

 

Coin Collectors:

People in this group will either know nothing of the original 1964 Silver Dollars (in which case they would be very unlikely to pay a lot for one), or they will be familiar with the story and will have to assume that either: the coin is a modern recreation of some sort; or the coin is genuine government-issue but illegal to own. In either case, they would be knowingly taking a risk if they buy it. As a case in point, recently I was playing poker at a casino and I was using one of my "1964-D" over-struck coins as a "card protector". I noticed that someone else at the table also used an older silver dollar as a card protector. I asked to see it and he showed me his 1921 (Morgan) silver dollar. He mentioned that he knew the current value was about $20 and that he had collected some others. Then I showed him my "1964"-dated coin without saying anything. He looked at it, but was not impressed. He seemed quite proud of his 1921 coin and a "1964" wasn't very interesting to him.

 

Direct (Initial) Buyers of My Coin:

They are fully aware of the true nature of it when buying. These coins are not a necessity of life, and a person is totally free to decline to buy one. So no harm is done.

 

Indirect (Future) Buyers of My Coin:

These buyers would fall into the "non-collector" or "collector" category listed above. If (in the very unlikely event that) one was sold to an unsuspecting buyer for an amount far in excess of the actual market value, then the seller of the coin would be at fault if they knowingly provided false information or did not provide full disclosure. If neither party in such a transaction were aware of the true nature of the coin, then the fault would lie with the buyer for failing to do their own due dilligence.

 

The General Numismatic Community:

The existence of this coin will likely bring more scrutiny to the related statutes. And possibly, something substantial might actually be done about Chinese counterfeits. This would be positive development.

[bigred33-migration]

 

 

Whoops, corrected, one of the finishes pieces sold out, not the whole run.

[edix]

As a case in point, recently I was playing poker at a casino and I was using one of my "1964-D" over-struck coins as a "card protector". I noticed that someone else at the table also used an older silver dollar as a card protector. I asked to see it and he showed me his 1921 (Morgan) silver dollar. He mentioned that he knew the current value was about $20 and that he had collected some others. Then I showed him my "1964"-dated coin without saying anything. He looked at it, but was not impressed. He seemed quite proud of his 1921 coin and a "1964" wasn't very interesting to him.

 

Translation: nerd value only.

[MarkFeld]

As a case in point, recently I was playing poker at a casino and I was using one of my "1964-D" over-struck coins as a "card protector". I noticed that someone else at the table also used an older silver dollar as a card protector. I asked to see it and he showed me his 1921 (Morgan) silver dollar. He mentioned that he knew the current value was about $20 and that he had collected some others. Then I showed him my "1964"-dated coin without saying anything. He looked at it, but was not impressed. He seemed quite proud of his 1921 coin and a "1964" wasn't very interesting to him.

 

Translation: nerd value only.

More likely translation: Not everyone knows about the 1964-D Peace Dollars.

[edix]

As a case in point, recently I was playing poker at a casino and I was using one of my "1964-D" over-struck coins as a "card protector". I noticed that someone else at the table also used an older silver dollar as a card protector. I asked to see it and he showed me his 1921 (Morgan) silver dollar. He mentioned that he knew the current value was about $20 and that he had collected some others. Then I showed him my "1964"-dated coin without saying anything. He looked at it, but was not impressed. He seemed quite proud of his 1921 coin and a "1964" wasn't very interesting to him.

 

Translation: nerd value only.

More likely translation: Not everyone knows about the 1964-D Peace Dollars.

 

Back about 15 years ago I was at a public housing project talking to some children about money. One girl said that all she had on her was a Clinton half dollar. Bill Clinton was the president at the time, and she was born sometime in the 1980s, so to her the image of Kennedy looked more like the then-sitting president than anyone else she could readily imagine, after all, his name isn't stamped on it.

[19Lyds]

As a case in point, recently I was playing poker at a casino and I was using one of my "1964-D" over-struck coins as a "card protector". I noticed that someone else at the table also used an older silver dollar as a card protector. I asked to see it and he showed me his 1921 (Morgan) silver dollar. He mentioned that he knew the current value was about $20 and that he had collected some others. Then I showed him my "1964"-dated coin without saying anything. He looked at it, but was not impressed. He seemed quite proud of his 1921 coin and a "1964" wasn't very interesting to him.

 

Translation: nerd value only.

More likely translation: Not everyone knows about the 1964-D Peace Dollars.

 

Back about 15 years ago I was at a public housing project talking to some children about money. One girl said that all she had on her was a Clinton half dollar. Bill Clinton was the president at the time, and she was born sometime in the 1980s, so to her the image of Kennedy looked more like the then-sitting president than anyone else she could readily imagine, after all, his name isn't stamped on it.

It ain;t stamped on the Eisenhower Dime either! !

 

Sorry, too many eBay searches on Eisenhower which came up with dimes....

[jtryka]

What are the differences between the 2 finishes?

[edix]

It ain;t stamped on the Eisenhower Dime either! !

Sorry, too many eBay searches on Eisenhower which came up with dimes....

 

Growing up as a kid it took me a long time to connect President Roosevelt with the image on the dime. The dime has a round looking face and Roosevelt's media images portray a longer or more angular face.

I began collecting when the Ike's first came out, so I knew that one right off, and then wound up attending Eisenhower College, where some proceeds from the silver Ike's went.

[PerryHall]

What are the differences between the 2 finishes?

 

The early coins were struck 5 times and look like a matte/satin proof while the later coins were only struck once at a higher pressure and look like a normal business strike. The ones that were struck once have flow lines resulting in the cartwheel luster associated with silver dollars while the early coins don't have flow lines since the multiple strikes eliminate any flow lines resulting in a matte/satin finish.

[DC Dawg]

Interesting... Just a thought: now that Daniel Carr is here to defend himself, the posts have stopped.

[Zoins]

What are the differences between the 2 finishes?

The early coins were struck 5 times and look like a matte/satin proof while the later coins were only struck once at a higher pressure and look like a normal business strike. The ones that were struck once have flow lines resulting in the cartwheel luster associated with silver dollars while the early coins don't have flow lines since the multiple strikes eliminate any flow lines resulting in a matte/satin finish.

The lustre discussion is one of the most interesting discussions I've read in while on coin boards.

[PerryHall]

Interesting... Just a thought: now that Daniel Carr is here to defend himself, the posts have stopped.

 

I think things are slowing down because everything that can be said has already been said several times.

[66tbird]

One thing that has always bothered me is why there are no pictures of a real 64D$.

 

I've never seen one, or heard of one, yet there just has to be one somewhere.

 

I like the 'stick it to the man' theory. I'd never thought of that. For me the 64-D FC is another coin in my collection of Mr. Carr's work, and I've got at least 60 different items he's made.

 

I started collecting them when my taste for a coins quality surpassed what I could afford to upgrade my US type set. I could buy nice and rare pieces at a faction of what a filler type set piece in my needed grade would cost.

 

That and after I purchased a good mini cnc machine for my other hobby I tried to mill a design on a nickel. I found it was a real challenge to say the least. So I found the inspiration in what I collect helps me in the methods of what I make. Now, if I could swing his software I'd have better luck because Sketchup don't cut it..

[PerryHall]

There was a lengthy thread on this topic on the PCGS forum that they deleted yesterday. I'm not sure why they keep deleting these threads when there are so many other threads over there that have nothing to do with U.S. coins. I have to admire and respect our hosts here for being far more tolerant than ATS.

[Coin]

Nobody mentions the 'Coolness' factor ? If there are those that do not collect cool stuff (stuff I consider to be cool ,anyway ), even stuff related to 'coin hobby' , well, that is their choice .

To me , it boils down to another choice . I chose to purchase one , for myself, to be enjoyed by myself regardless of anyone else's opinion , simply based upon my main criteria ....I think it is freakin way out there cool and I LIKE IT ! Can't wait for the delivery .

 

Okay , I collect just about everything under the sun related to my 'hobby' . It is the WAY that I enjoy MY hobby . Everyone is free to collect any which way they want to do so and I will not mind what-so-ever .

Am I spending 'too' much for it? Uh, well...it is my money...I earned it through my hard labors and can spend it anyway I choose . Am I being taken advantage of ...or am I being 'stupid' with MY money ? I think not (some may think-yes..well good for them..I spent 20 years of my life with the military so they can continue to express their beliefs and am glad we can all still do so) .

Will someone eventually own one of these( say, through inheritance or gift without explanation) , then sell without knowing what it is to someone else that knows very little also ? Maybe ...'caveat emptor' (buyer beware) or however it is spelled ...gambling and greed and investing does not guarantee positive results in any field .

 

Will my purchase diminish the value of other's collections that have chosen to collect differently ? I seriously doubt it .

 

Not trying to be a stinker-poo ( my one natural talent) , but lighten up.... eventually we will all die someday...at least some of us will take a chance and attempt to enjoy the one life we have the way we want to....regardless of those that love to impose their views and control over how we are supposed to think or enjoy ourselves in our own free time .

 

Great arguments for and against ...I read each post reply and consider this thread to be most informative ...especially the break-down of the HPA sections posted by Mark Feld and others . I would have probably missed the opportunity to own one of these Daniel Carr pieces if I had not logged in and read this thread , as I have dropped my coin magazine subscriptions .

[DC Dawg]

Not trying to be a stinker-poo ( my one natural talent) , but lighten up.... eventually we will all die someday...at least some of us will take a chance and attempt to enjoy the one life we have the way we want to....regardless of those that love to impose their views and control over how we are supposed to think or enjoy ourselves in our own free time .

AMEN!

[edix]

Nobody mentions the 'Coolness' factor ?

 

Totally cool!

I enjoy fantasy coins and run with a crowd that has them high on their list:

Unrecognised States Numismatic Society

Fantasy coins and historical replicas are a great way to have fun with numismatics. They can relate to technique, history, personality and lots of times pure humor, especially when it comes to parodies. It takes a certain someone to create them and someone else to appreciate them.

[19Lyds]

On the other hand, here's another argument that would cast Carr's 1964-D in unfavorable light.

 

Suppose I bleach a bunch of one-dollar bills. Then, I create dies that look exactly like $100 bill dies, except I put a weird date on them -- a date that for which $100 bills were never issued (1964, for example ). I stamp the bleached one-dollar bill paper with the new dies.

 

Would those be deemed illegal ? I suspect so !

 

I don't think this applies here, Carr made no attempt to alter the stated monetary value.

One Peace Dollar In -> One Peace Dollar Overstrike Out.

But, one might argue that I didn't change the denomination of the paper money either, since no 1964 $100-bill has ever existed. In other words, how can I be accused of turning a piece of paper money into another piece of paper money if the latter has never existed? There's nothing wrong with that, right? if I create something new that didn't previously exist?

 

Yet I feel certain the Secret Service would be on it in a hurry.

Bleached, the paper has no value. Plain, the coin still has its US Government assayed value and could always be identified as a US Coin of a one dollar denomination given its size and weight.

 

Additionally, the paper does not represent ANYTHING of value other than being a different paper. It also represents a promisory NOTE issued by the Federal Reserve Bank "against" the US Government. Changing it's promised value would be the same as changing the terms of a signed contract which is why the SS would be on you. Date or no Date its still just a piece of paper whereas the silver will always be a one dollar coin.

[TheMightyDuke]

19Lyds said it best in another thread ATS.......

 

Someday, folks WILL seek this stuff out as Daniel is not just another fellow with a coining press.

 

After all, he has a history as a designer with the US Mint and does create some nice coins, tokens, and what nots. He's already written into Numismatic History and regardless of what occurs in the future, that history will always be there.

[CaptHenway]

Nobody mentions the 'Coolness' factor ?

 

Totally cool!

I enjoy fantasy coins and run with a crowd that has them high on their list:

Unrecognised States Numismatic Society

Fantasy coins and historical replicas are a great way to have fun with numismatics. They can relate to technique, history, personality and lots of times pure humor, especially when it comes to parodies. It takes a certain someone to create them and someone else to appreciate them.

 

 

Alan Berman of Bermania stops by the store once or twice a year.

Now, that man understands fantasy coins!!!!

 

!

 

TD

[Connecticoin]

Peace dollars exist as original numismatic items.

The Carr copies are replicas of them.

I see nothing in the Hobby Protection Act that is date-specific.

TD

 

I also see nothing that is NOT date specific. To say that a 1964-D Peace Dollar is NOT an "original numismatic item" appears to be a valid position, but subject to interpretation, hence the "gray area".

[Coindude]

I wouldn't exactly call them "replicas" as Captain Henway suggests. They are more of a.... "I used some old Peace Dollars to create my rendition of a 64 D." That's if we are trying to be correct. A replica would mean to me that Mr. Carr made his own blanks or planchets from whatever and then made the 64. On another note.... if he would have made a High Relief version... I'd probably own one!

[robec1347]

Sorry this didn't come out better. If you think the NGC and PCGS slabs have glare, you should try an 8"x10" slab. Actually it's more like a Capital holder. There are 7 acrylic layers, with the coin in layer number 4.

 

[rrantique]

That's a great looking set display Bob. (thumbs u

Here is the only 1964 D Peace I have. Counterstamped USCC. Key Chain