SEGS 1795 dollar ...the Continuing Saga
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Ex Navy squids excluded since they're all warped anyway so they don't count. :insane::insane: Just the ones from the 70's and 80's like EZ-E!!

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Hi, guys.

 

I would be thrilled to death if I had the distinct honor of blowing the whistle of the counterfeiter. Not likely after all this time...but man...would I like to get my hands on him. (basically I am a pacifist but that little sh-- caused a lot of grief...I would like to see him get his!!)

 

Here is something interesting from the "The Art and Craft of Coin Making a History of Minting Technology" by Denis R. Cooper: p.21

 

" .....Early in the tenth century King Aethelstan decreed that every borough should be entitled to a mint with consequent increase in the number of moneyers which could operate at each. Should a moneyer prove to be be dishonest he was punished by having his hand cut off, the severed hand subsequently hung up to discourage others-a bizarre and grim display!"

 

This perhaps should also be the just reward for a counterfeiter as well! As it stands even if caught the punishment is survivable and the two faced rat can continue this practice in the future. (tsk)

 

And again on pp. 42-43

 

"In 1695 the British Government passed laws to prohibit the use of all clipped and counterfeit coins and decreed the issue of a new coinage........Sir Isaac Newton became Warden of the London Mint in the Tower of London in 1696.......He also took extensive steps to track down the illegal practices and to ensure the conviction and improsonment of the criminals. In 1697 ninteen of these were even executed at Tyburn." :o

Edited by Smilie Puss

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Al,

glad to hear all has worked out, although i am not surprised at the fact finding results. I hope you don't change your course on collecting over one or two coins. The time, effort, professionalism and tenacity ie the never give up aspect of your personality showed through with the the way in which you handled this situation. All that work and to only give up, use these attributes toward your collecting habits, you will even have a better more profound collection in the end. Don't be driven off, that is the complete opposite of what you showed during this episode, don't let the hobby down, you just have become more of an expert, graduated from SEGS University so to say and there is nothing wrong with that imho!!!

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Well,that's done.But,I'm wondering if SEGS is saying only the coin was fake or both the slab AND the coin are counterfeits? Don't want to draw it out any longer but I'm still curious.

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I am glad this saga had a happy ending with you receiving compensation for your coin.

 

Please don't let this sour you on collecting nice US Type Coins just be wiser you you let authenticate you coins in the future.

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If genuine, it is a 5K++ coin.

If a counterfeit it is a $50. item at best.

 

Isn't our hobby strange, in some ways?

(Rhetorical)

I hereby offer $100 sight-unseen.

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Ex Navy squids excluded since they're all warped anyway so they don't count. :insane::insane: Just the ones from the 70's and 80's like EZ-E!!
Hey.... I resemble that remark! Not the 70's part, but .....

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Well,that's done.But,I'm wondering if SEGS is saying only the coin was fake or both the slab AND the coin are counterfeits? Don't want to draw it out any longer but I'm still curious.

 

The slab is genuine since he personally submitted the coins to SEGS for grading.

 

I'd personally be a much better grader than a coin verifier. I'm sure that counterfeits would get by me all of the time. It's gotta be a tough job.

 

And, I kind of agree with Al's possible decision to sell his coins if he is going through with the move. If he is going to mortgage the new home then I'd use the proceeds not as part of a down payment but to put it all on the principle of the loan. Those familiar with the amortization tables will know that literally tens of thousands of dollars can be saved in interest with a relatively low payment towards the principle of the loan.

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Al, if you become satisfied after this event, then I am tickled to death. Sorry, you do not have the coin you thought you had for so long. Hopefully, you will think things through and remain in the U.S. coin collecting "industry" as we need collectors with integrity as you have surely proven to have.

Best of luck with your health, your relocation plans, and your collecting agenda.

Jim

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Glad to see that everything has worked out to your satisfaction and that the original company that did the certifying bowed down as to what PCGS identified it as. Wow, what a saga this has been and to think if you had not got the notion to cross this coin over, you’d still be unknowingly in possession of a contemporary counterfeit. This just boggles the mind.

 

This has put the good faith of SEGS back into their court, just as you suspected it would. I’m happy for you RI AL but don’t let this put a damper on collecting old US coinage, this scenario could have happened to anyone.

 

~Woody~

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I will go on record as saying that this incident of a fake coin in a SEGS holder does nothing to lower my estimation of their counterfeit detection. Without question, I continue to believe that Larry Briggs is quite possibly THE premier authority on detecting counterfeits, and I would buy any coin in a SEGS holder as authentic without hesitation. We all know that every service has certified multiple counterfeit coins at one time or another, and the silver lining is always that the mistake when caught leads to further knowledge and understanding of the counterfeiter's nefarious schemes and techniques.

 

RI AL, congratulations on successfully resolving the issue. I know it took a long time, but I also understand the mitigating circumstances that were in effect during this time.

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James, the problem I see here is that Mr. Briggs doesn't see every coin that goes into a holder. Your company is only as good as it's worst grader. Or possibly as your worst two graders if a confirmation grade has to be given. I would hope that if two professionals took a look at a coin that at least one of them could figure it out.

 

On another note, for those of you that think there are no counterfeit coins in PCGS or NGC holders, think again. Anyone and I say anyone can be duped.

 

Lastly, congrats to Al on a peaceful resolution. You can and should be proud of the way you handled the situation. You sir I would do business with on any day of the week.

 

And, really lastly, thanks to Mr. Briggs for taking care of his business albeit not in the timeliest of fashions but I think we all here understand that there were extenuating circumstances.

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James, the problem I see here is that Mr. Briggs doesn't see every coin that goes into a holder. Your company is only as good as it's worst grader. Or possibly as your worst two graders if a confirmation grade has to be given. I would hope that if two professionals took a look at a coin that at least one of them could figure it out.

 

On another note, for those of you that think there are no counterfeit coins in PCGS or NGC holders, think again. Anyone and I say anyone can be duped.

 

Lastly, congrats to Al on a peaceful resolution. You can and should be proud of the way you handled the situation. You sir I would do business with on any day of the week.

 

And, really lastly, thanks to Mr. Briggs for taking care of his business albeit not in the timeliest of fashions but I think we all here understand that there were extenuating circumstances.

 

Good point, but on a coin of this caliber, you can bet Larry Briggs did view the coin. SEGS is not that big of an operation. I think you would be surprised.

 

(My opinion is only based on using them twice for fairly large submissions a few years ago when they ran a $7. per coin special, every tenth coin free promotion and had telephone contact with them over a few of the coins. The above is the impression I was left with.)

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I will go on record as saying that this incident of a fake coin in a SEGS holder does nothing to lower my estimation of their counterfeit detection. Without question, I continue to believe that Larry Briggs is quite possibly THE premier authority on detecting counterfeits, and I would buy any coin in a SEGS holder as authentic without hesitation. We all know that every service has certified multiple counterfeit coins at one time or another, and the silver lining is always that the mistake when caught leads to further knowledge and understanding of the counterfeiter's nefarious schemes and techniques.

 

RI AL, congratulations on successfully resolving the issue. I know it took a long time, but I also understand the mitigating circumstances that were in effect during this time.

I am inclined to agree with James...

But only because I trust James implicitly. (thumbs u

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Well, guys, what can I possibly say in gratitude for all of you support during this, your suggests and most of all, the very kind words in the last 2 or 3 pages of posts.I did my best to handle the issue professionally and though I got a bit raw around the edges, something told me that it would work out. I am now going to get a bit emotional so hit delete at any time.

 

I'm in neutral mode now as far as collecting. Maybe after 50 years in the hobby, I need a breather and reassess my goals, interests and motivation. This is not because of the recent unpleasantness, but because of the really difficult time I am having accepting all the stuff that is going on to my hobby. It isn't fun any more. Trustworthy people are few and far between (I Have had the great privilege to have met many here on this BB)...and I have a REAL problem with that because I am VERY trusting...AND try to be trustworthy as well. I'm slabbed, out and though there is some degree of assurance that certification by the big guys is true and honest, the number of examples to the contrary I find VERY discouraging...especially since I am no expert and rely on that damn piece of plastic far too much to guide me to a wise decision. No more...at least for a while.

 

There was a comment up a few posts about selling the collection to pay down the mortgage. Well, our RI home is mortgage free and we have no debt except for a 3 year (2 1/2 years left) Toyota loan at 0% interest. Silly to pay THAT one off. The house in West Palm, our hoped retirement home right next to my brother and sister in law (she was my kidney donor...we were joking the other night that if we moved next door, all her organs would be back together.) It's purchase for cash, our hoped plan, would require a small line of credit on my RI home...a thought that grits me. I don't do debt very well...but the collection might just fill that gap nicely and this plan is under consideration. I am the world's expert on amortization charts and accelerated payments but I would rather be free of debt all together. I am thinking that at age 58, taking on debt is not such a smart move.

 

Collecting has been my life, since I was about 8. Got me through some real tough family stuff growing up and those "difficult years". Never stole anything, never vandalized anything, never got crocked, (well...almost never...and it was my mother-in-law's fault for introducing me to that fruity cheap wine that tasted like fruit juice...the room was sure spinning THAT night) never rebelled, never even did a single joint...even in college...a major accomplishment by Florida State University standards (the original home of streaking, by the way). And as boring a character as I must sound, I don't even have a traffic ticket on my record. They don't get much straighter that that! Most of this I attribute to the devotion to "my hobby". Man...I was hooked BAD! Every spare cent went to coins...and an occasional date in college.

 

Now at 58, it's time to re-examine my goals. My collection isn't worth untold thousands, but it would keep us in home, food and utilities for quite a while. I'm thinking that perhaps that time has come and we buy the West Palm Beach home outright and don't mortgage the RI home, which we would sell in 5 years when my wife wants to retire and then we would occupy the West Palm home. (they call West Palm heaven's Gate...and I'm not quite ready to knock). Me...I'm already retired because of the darned kidney thing. It's a lot to think about and when I seriously think about selling my "beloved" U.S. type set...well, it's tough. I have a lot of thinking to do and fortunately there is no rush to make a decision. (The West Palm house is a "short sale"...and they are notoriously NOT short in waiting time...which is good because I'm in no hurry to take possession and have to do repairs, hire a property manager to find tenants, pay gobs of insurance for a home in S. Florida...the hurricane capital of the planet, taxes, home owners association fees and the like).

 

Bottom line, it's been one Hell of a ride, and who knows, I may still have a few more

rides ahead...but I HAVE become cynical about the direction that the hobby has taken and that is a major loss for me. But who knows...maybe I'll bounce back...but I sure a heck will be a lot more cautious from whom I buy! Painful lessons are not soon forgotten.

 

OK...enough of this (that will probably get spooned). Again, guys, it's been a trip. I will be around here still, hoping to get a chance to identify a foreign coin or a old U.S type coin variety or just keeping up with the coin gossip.

 

Finding this board about 18 months ago was great. And you guys, likewise.

Have a good evening. I am going to go calculate taxes and home owners association fees now and determine how close we are to "heaven's gate"..

 

RI AL

 

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Well, guys, what can I possibly say in gratitude for all of you support during this, your suggests and most of all, the very kind words in the last 2 or 3 pages of posts.I did my best to handle the issue professionally and though I got a bit raw around the edges, something told me that it would work out. I am now going to get a bit emotional so hit delete at any time.

 

I'm in neutral mode now as far as collecting. Maybe after 50 years in the hobby, I need a breather and reassess my goals, interests and motivation. This is not because of the recent unpleasantness, but because of the really difficult time I am having accepting all the stuff that is going on to my hobby. It isn't fun any more. Trustworthy people are few and far between (I Have had the great privilege to have met many here on this BB)...and I have a REAL problem with that because I am VERY trusting...AND try to be trustworthy as well. I'm slabbed, out and though there is some degree of assurance that certification by the big guys is true and honest, the number of examples to the contrary I find VERY discouraging...especially since I am no expert and rely on that damn piece of plastic far too much to guide me to a wise decision. No more...at least for a while.

 

There was a comment up a few posts about selling the collection to pay down the mortgage. Well, our RI home is mortgage free and we have no debt except for a 3 year (2 1/2 years left) Toyota loan at 0% interest. Silly to pay THAT one off. The house in West Palm, our hoped retirement home right next to my brother and sister in law (she was my kidney donor...we were joking the other night that if we moved next door, all her organs would be back together.) It's purchase for cash, our hoped plan, would require a small line of credit on my RI home...a thought that grits me. I don't do debt very well...but the collection might just fill that gap nicely and this plan is under consideration. I am the world's expert on amortization charts and accelerated payments but I would rather be free of debt all together. I am thinking that at age 58, taking on debt is not such a smart move.

 

Collecting has been my life, since I was about 8. Got me through some real tough family stuff growing up and those "difficult years". Never stole anything, never vandalized anything, never got crocked, (well...almost never...and it was my mother-in-law's fault for introducing me to that fruity cheap wine that tasted like fruit juice...the room was sure spinning THAT night) never rebelled, never even did a single joint...even in college...a major accomplishment by Florida State University standards (the original home of streaking, by the way). And as boring a character as I must sound, I don't even have a traffic ticket on my record. They don't get much straighter that that! Most of this I attribute to the devotion to "my hobby". Man...I was hooked BAD! Every spare cent went to coins...and an occasional date in college.

 

Now at 58, it's time to re-examine my goals. My collection isn't worth untold thousands, but it would keep us in home, food and utilities for quite a while. I'm thinking that perhaps that time has come and we buy the West Palm Beach home outright and don't mortgage the RI home, which we would sell in 5 years when my wife wants to retire and then we would occupy the West Palm home. (they call West Palm heaven's Gate...and I'm not quite ready to knock). Me...I'm already retired because of the darned kidney thing. It's a lot to think about and when I seriously think about selling my "beloved" U.S. type set...well, it's tough. I have a lot of thinking to do and fortunately there is no rush to make a decision. (The West Palm house is a "short sale"...and they are notoriously NOT short in waiting time...which is good because I'm in no hurry to take possession and have to do repairs, hire a property manager to find tenants, pay gobs of insurance for a home in S. Florida...the hurricane capital of the planet, taxes, home owners association fees and the like).

 

Bottom line, it's been one Hell of a ride, and who knows, I may still have a few more

rides ahead...but I HAVE become cynical about the direction that the hobby has taken and that is a major loss for me. But who knows...maybe I'll bounce back...but I sure a heck will be a lot more cautious from whom I buy! Painful lessons are not soon forgotten.

 

OK...enough of this (that will probably get spooned). Again, guys, it's been a trip. I will be around here still, hoping to get a chance to identify a foreign coin or a old U.S type coin variety or just keeping up with the coin gossip.

 

Finding this board about 18 months ago was great. And you guys, likewise.

Have a good evening. I am going to go calculate taxes and home owners association fees now and determine how close we are to "heaven's gate"..

 

RI AL

 

I hope you wont let this experience taint your perception of the hobby. "The recent unpleasantness" is how they often refer to the Civil War, in the South, and I hate to see people get burned because of plastic games to such an extremity. You said that you know you rely too much on the plastic, and that prompts me to ask you, why not learn a series from the ground up, and then trust your own judgement? This hobby is NOT a mine field if you know how to grade and detect problems on your own. You will be able to collect coins again, instead of plastic opinions. And, you will be much better off not having to trust ANY grading service; but I think you know that already ;)

 

 

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I believe this says a great deal about PCGS!

I believe this doesn't say much about the other guys, but at least they were man enough to admit it and make good on that fact, but what does it say about the journey, if Al didn't go this route how long would it have taken and would he have gotten there?:(

 

 

Edited by realone

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Al, regardless of your decision, I certainly hope that you stick around the boards. You'd be missed otherwise.

 

And, perhaps it's not PC for asking, but I'm certainly curious as to the amount of compensation you received. I'm sure that most others are curious about the same thing. So if you're comfortable doing so then spill the beans already! (thumbs u

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Hi, E-ZE.

 

Regarding compensation, would it suffice to say that SEGS and I reached a mutually satisfactory decision? After all, the coin was a fake, but because of the efforts of another member here as well as my discussions with Mr. Briggs, an agreement was reached. I know I'm being evasive but on the advice of another member of this BB who is well qualified to speak on these matters, a "rough value" for the coin because it was cleaned was suggested, and that is the figure, more or less that I will be receiving in compensation.

 

Sorry to not be my ususal up front answer type guy, but out of "politiical correctness", I hope you won't be too disappointed if I leave the answer this way.

 

Let's just say that if all goes as promised, and I fully expect it will, I will be receiving close to fair value for the coin...even though it isn't genuine.

 

I have amended this post, please see below.

 

RI AL

 

 

Edited by RI AL

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Al, I think you are continuing to handle yourself as a complete gentlemen. Personally, I was hoping you wouldn't answer the question, no offense Victor! ;)

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You know, guys, in my last reply to E--ZE, I had decided to answer the question as vaguely as I could. It was pointed out to me, however, that the post gives a one sided impression of the results of the resolution. My intention of this post is to amend that here.

 

I am to receive full value of what I paid for the coin at the time of purchase. I thought this was fair on the part of SEGS, since the coin was not genuine. However, there is another element that I failed to mention and absolutely SHOULD have.

 

With the assistance of a gentleman here on the BB, I was put in touch with an organization called the "Numismatic Consumer Alliance" while all of this stuff was stewing. I contacted them during the long silent period of no information regarding the status of the coin in question.

 

They (the NCA) became involved on my behalf, for which I am most grateful. John Albanese, affiliated with NCA, most generously arranged to supplement the payment I was to receive from SEGS and between SEGS and the NCA, the full compensation was the value of the coin, had it been genuine. Keep in mind that it had been cleaned, and not attractively so which considerably lessened the desirability of the coin. So between the contributions of SEGS and the NCA combined, the accurate value of the coin is what is being reimbursed.

 

It was a significant oversight on my part, not to mention the participation of the NCA, and Mr. Albanese in particular. An oversight I regret and profoundly apologize for to the organization as well as to Mr. Albanese. They were instrumental in assisting with the resolution of this and I should have acknowledged that from the original post to E_ZE.

 

Again, profound apologies.

 

RI AL

 

 

 

 

 

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I am here thinking if it wasn't for a board member in HIGH REGARD here and ANOTHER third party ( Mr Albanese ) stepping in to "facilitate" this outcome, if an appropriate outcome would have been reached at all.

 

My viewpoint is that Mr Briggs is held in somewhat high regard by the industry and to have this go on for so long was more of an unacceptable BUSINESS practice more than of anyone trashing SEGS as an unacceptable TPG.

I am sure his health issues did become a problem of sorts and the rest of his operation did not "know what to do".

It took a few large names in the industry to help out a fellow Numismatist and HIS company and HIS problem to make things right. For this I applaud those involved in having this come to a pleasing end for my neighbor RI AL. :golfclap:

 

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You know, guys, in my last reply to E--ZE, I had decided to answer the question as vaguely as I could. It was pointed out to me, however, that the post gives a one sided impression of the results of the resolution. My intention of this post is to amend that here.

 

I am to receive full value of what I paid for the coin at the time of purchase. I thought this was fair on the part of SEGS, since the coin was not genuine. However, there is another element that I failed to mention and absolutely SHOULD have.

 

With the assistance of a gentleman here on the BB, I was put in touch with an organization called the "Numismatic Consumer Alliance" while all of this stuff was stewing. I contacted them during the long silent period of no information regarding the status of the coin in question.

 

They (the NCA) became involved on my behalf, for which I am most grateful. John Albanese, affiliated with NCA, most generously arranged to supplement the payment I was to receive from SEGS and between SEGS and the NCA, the full compensation was the value of the coin, had it been genuine. Keep in mind that it had been cleaned, and not attractively so which considerably lessened the desirability of the coin. So between the contributions of SEGS and the NCA combined, the accurate value of the coin is what is being reimbursed.

 

It was a significant oversight on my part, not to mention the participation of the NCA, and Mr. Albanese in particular. An oversight I regret and profoundly apologize for to the organization as well as to Mr. Albanese. They were instrumental in assisting with the resolution of this and I should have acknowledged that from the original post to E_ZE.

 

Again, profound apologies.

 

RI AL

 

 

 

First, the fact that the coin is a fake has nothing to do with how much compensation you are entitled to, it is the very reason for the compensation!

 

Now, I'm glad to see the price you received was fair market value (wholesale or retail is debatable) for a genuine coin in the same condition, not the price you paid 10 years ago, though it did not all come from the party in err, which is unfortunate.

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And now for the REAL story, so John Albanese and the NCA are to be thanked firstly and foremostly in my mind, why? because they had nothing to do with the blunder made by you know who yet they made you whole. I didn't like you know who before but now I am flabergasted, who know who reimburses you for what you originally paid for the coin, I want to say you got to be kidding right, what a freakin nerve and what does that say about you know who, a dam shame. John Albanese is one of the good guys, I knew it before, and it shows through again. And now you know the end of the story.

Edited by realone

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I am not sure how to contact Mr. Albanese directly through E-Mail, but high on my list of things to get done is a note of appreciation to him, perhaps through the NCA, Was this the "ideal" resolution, well, probably not...but it was mutually agreed upon on both our parts (SEGS and myself) and the involvement of Mr. Albanese and the NCA did a great deal to assist in this matter and I am very grateful.

 

At this point, there is another frequent participant of these boards "out there" that I want to thank but I think he would prefer to remain anonymous. I have sent, by PM, my sincere thanks for his above and beyond involvement in this matter on my behalf. True, professional gentlemen are certainly in short supply these days. I consider myself to be very fortunate to have made this acquaintance. To he, and Mr. Albanese, another gentleman well deserving of respect, thank you so very much.

 

Time to move on. I probably won't own a 1795 dollar again, but the lessons learned from this are many and far reaching. Happily, the vast majority of those lessons are positive and very much restorative of my faith that there are still "good guys" out there. If and when I re-enter the coin market, I will me far the wiser, and once more, to all you guys who stood behind me on this with your encouragement and messages of support, a very big, THANK YOU!

 

Time to try out the new John Deere tractor for it's virgin run and try to get all of this behind me.......as well as cut the lawn. :/

 

Next on the list, (after I find out how to contact Mr. Albanese) I have to go after the lawyer who never filed the paperwork with my town when our mortgage was discharged. He was paid his fees, of course, just never did the job. I found out quite by accident just a few weeks ago. I do so love a challenge.

 

Have a terrific weekend, everyone.

 

RI AL

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