grade this coin; first silver american coin struck large planchet pine tree shil

[michael]

these coins were struck on a rocker press which made the coin naturally wavy

 

this is why these mass. pine tree shillinfs where called witches coin as even recently it was thought that the waviness was caused by people bending the coins to ward off witches and this was not true the flat pine tree large planchet shillings are the ones that have been purposely flattened to make them more desirable to collectors as all coins are flat right?? wrong now the original unflattened large planchet originally WAVY pine tree shillings are more desirable and original

 

coin is wavy in hand but the photo does not do justice to the waviness of the planchet but it is there nonetheless

 

this coin happens to be uncleaned and has great patina and lustre andalso on a full weight planchet and with almost full details on both sides in other words as close to perfectly centered as you are going to get

 

also this coin has not been clipped of any of its silver the somewhat round planchet is original as struck

 

what do you grade this pine tree shilling obverse only??

 

also these coins were struck on .925 sterling silver planchets in boston mass.

1663-1671

 

the first american silver coin struck in the american colonies

 

way cool and historical

 

[RareSov]

Wow thats cool. NO idea.. some corrosion ? maybe AU details

[michael]

thanks!

 

absolutely NO corrosion on this coin

 

but it is a hard coin to grade as usually these are not seen in higher grades and also it is a specialist area and the services ngc/pcgs cant barely get these right most of the time

 

i will give it a few more days before i let my and other opinion's of the grade be revealed to give others a chance to chime in and remember there are no wrong answers

 

and also this coin is graded by pcgs

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

Any chance we could see the other side michael?

 

These are, like you say, extremely difficult to grade. This is obviously a choice specimen, but I can't tell if the weakness in the center of the tree is due to strike or wear. Without examining it in hand, I would call it AU-55, but I would not be surprised at all if this were graded MS-63 or 64. What is going on at the top, underneath the HU? Is that adjustment marks? These and the light pitting at the rim around k1 to k3 are really the only detractions to a gorgeous coin.

[dean1345]

I was thinking XF-45.

[coinman1794]

It looks strong XF or AU, from the side shown.

[WoodenJefferson]

AU-50

[michael]

These are, like you say, extremely difficult to grade. This is obviously a choice specimen,-----TRUE!!!!

 

but I can't tell if the weakness in the center of the tree is due to strike or wear.----- THE WEAKNESS IS DUE TO STRIKE THESE COINS WERE ON REALLT THIN PLANCHETS AND THE TREE IS THE HIGHEST POINT OF THE DESIGN SO IT GETS THE WORST STRIKE ALL NOE-10 ARE LIKE THIS NOE IS THE MAN WHO CATALOGUED THEM BY VARIETY A LONG TIME AGO AND THESE VARIETY NUMBERS ARE STILL USED BY THE COINCOMMUNITY

 

--- Without examining it in hand, I would call it AU-55, but I would not be surprised at all if this were graded MS-63 or 64.

 

What is going on at the top, underneath the HU?---THIS IS CAUSED BY THE STRIKE FROM THE END OFTHE ROLLAR PRESS STRETCHING AND NOT STRIKING THE COIN IN FACT ALL THE NOE-10 VARITIES OF THIS COIN SHOW THIS---- IT IS PART OF THE MINTING PROCESS GREAT QUESTION BY THE WAY YOU ARE HIGHLY OBSERVANT

 

Is that adjustment marks? NO THESE ARE NOT ADJUSTMENT MARKS

 

These and the light pitting at the rim around k1 to k3 are really the only detractions to a gorgeous coin. THIS IS NOT PITTING AT ALL THIS IS IN THE PLANCHET AND MINTING PROCESS EXAGGERATES THIS ANOMOLY

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hi there kiddo great questions by the way and i will answer them in capital letters as per the above

 

 

[michael]

ALSO THIS IS A REALLY COOL VERIATY AS ON THE REVERSE IT SAYS NEW AND IT IS A BACKWARDS N IN ENDLAND AS THE ENGRAVEROF THE DIE FORGOT AND ENGRAVED A D FRONTWARFDS N IN ENGLAND SO WHEN THE COIN IS STRUCK YOU GET A BACKWARDS N

 

COOL VARIETY!!!!!!

 

sorry i cant find the reverse of the coin as i think ilost it when my harddrive died and they could not reconstitute it when i had the hard drive replaced sorry

[michael]

what you see as adjustment marks are actually the dential if you look closely and with the crude rocker press being pulled betwen the dies this end came out last and it was literally pullede from the dies giving it sgtretch marks

 

this is a great coin to learn from and these are highly specialized coins

 

tojmorrow i will report on the grade pcgs gave it also what two top experts in the field gave it and also some other observations from the crappy photo

 

 

[michael]

coin is graded xf-45 by pcgs and to me but you got to see it in hand it is at least au-50+

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i showed the coin to John Dannreuther

Founder, Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS)

 

Expertise: All U.S. coins.

Specialties: U.S. gold and type coins, counterfeit detection, and special strikings.

 

John Dannreuther grew up in the rare coin business. His father ran trade paper ads in the 1950s as V.J. Dannreuther and Sons. After graduating from the University of Mississippi with a degree in chemistry, John went back into the coin business, becoming a full-time dealer in 1973. Today he is considered one of the top rare coin experts of all time.

 

In 1986, John was one of the co-founders of Professional Coin Grading Service. In 1997, he was the principal text author of "The Official Guide To Coin Grading And Counterfeit Detection," the Numismatic Literary Guild's "Book Of The Year" award winner for 1998.

 

HE GRADED THIS COIN AU-50

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

AT THE SAME SHOW LAST YEAR I SHOWED THE COIN TO

http://www.jkamericana.com/about.html

 

john kraljevich

 

HE ALSO GRADED THE COIN AU-50

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

WELL BETTER UINDERGRADED THAN OVERGRADED

 

ALSO YOU CANT SEE THE WAVE IN THE COIN or the lustre DUE TO THE PHOTO

 

 

THANKS TO ALL WHO PARTICIPATED IN THIS THREAD

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I hate the way grading services grade these, giving impossibly precise numeric grades. With so many variables that went into production of Mass. silver, what is the laundry list of standards that determines the difference between VF-25 and VF-30? They just get silly with the grade numerals.

 

I would grade this coin "extremely-fine".

[michael]

james if you saw this coin in hand you would think differently in my opinion

 

but this photo is all we got and you have not seen the reverse which i do not have a photo of

 

let me know if you will be in balty and i will bring it there to show you

 

but grading is a subjective opinion and yes numerical grades from the slabbing companies are their forte such is the current market

 

 

[michael]

with regard to the stretch marks on the top of the coin

 

since the coin was not struck in a coin press but squeezed through a rocker press hence the stretch marks

 

think of a rocker press as the old fashioned washing machine that had rollers to send the wash through to squeeze out the water

 

take a look at this website for photos of rocker dies and a rocker press similar to the one that made the LARGE planchet pine tree shillings in the late 17th century 1670's--1680 in boston mass.

 

http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/OakTree.intro.html

[MikeInFL]

Neat coin.

[prudden]

with regard to the stretch marks on the top of the coin

 

since the coin was not struck in a coin press but squeezed through a rocker press hence the stretch marks

 

think of a rocker press as the old fashioned washing machine that had rollers to send the wash through to squeeze out the water

 

take a look at this website for photos of rocker dies and a rocker press similar to the one that made the LARGE planchet pine tree shillings in the late 17th century 1670's--1680 in boston mass.

 

http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/OakTree.intro.html

 

What an odd way to make coins. Pretty amazing.

[HiHoAudio]

Fantastic coin, I actually was going to say AU-50.

 

Really. No, stop laughing...