the difference between 69 and perfect 70 grades????

[John Maben]

Hello everyone. It may be obvious but just in case it isn't, I am the author of the original post by Michael and it was copied over from another forum.

 

Mr Feld, just to be clear, are you saying you have a problem with the standard or use of the grade in general? (or maybe both)

 

Also, do you believe a "perfect" coin exists?

 

John

 

 

[michael]

good to see you here john

 

this is why i posted your name and website under what you said on another coin board

 

also come here once in a while and post

 

 

[RareSov]

Wish Moderncoinmart would ship to me in Australia

 

Perfect exists to a certain degree, it has to be somewhere. For the graders it is 5x magnification, if they can't see it then.. well it's not there.

[John Maben]

I think the people behind this forum all do an outstanding job, I just personally don't like the mechanics, look, or feel of the vehicle.

 

That is the only reason I don't post here more often Michael.

 

I think the right (complete) forum make over would cause participation to skyrocket.

 

John

[John Maben]

RareSov-

 

Tell me the best way to do this in a PM and we'll consider it.

 

Thanks,

John

[James_OldeTowne]

For me, a "perfect" coin cannot exist. And, it is shameful how many PCGS and NGC "70s" ("perfect" coins( have easily detectable imperfections.

[Treeman]

"And, it is shameful how many PCGS and NGC "70s" ("perfect" coins( have easily detectable imperfections. "

 

Exactly what I was getting at... there are "69's" that are nicer than "70's"

[RareSov]

I can't agree with this. A 69 must have a flaw that is greater than any flaws on a 70.. unless it has been incorrectly graded 70 which is a moot point (its not really a 70)

 

Most modern 69's have the nicks that look like a bagmark that I spoke of earlier. They are tiny but look like a bagmark under a 5x

[Treeman]

"I can't agree with this. A 69 must have a flaw that is greater than any flaws on a 70.. unless it has been incorrectly graded 70 which is a moot point (its not really a 70)"

 

My point exactly. The 69/70 thing is a "luck of the draw" type grading by the TPGs. That's why SOME 69's are nicer than SOME 70's. Seriously, take 5 RANDOM 69's, and 5 RANDOM 70's, cover the grades, then pick the 70's, and see how many you pick correctly (maybe not truly "correctly", but correctly as to what is on the slab)

 

[Coin]

Well , I do believe that if a grade is a numbering system to separate levels of condition .....which to the utmost top of my mind is what I thought the P01-MS/PF70 system was.......then it can be used.

 

We are talking about coins , not God or any other supreme deity, or golden panda bear kings .

I have several and have owned several MS/PF 70 coins ( most from my own submissions and MANY of which were Commems bought from MCM/ JMRC...Thanks John -say hello to Tom for me ).

If anyone feels that it is just not Fair to use a grade number , then WHY in the world do you think we have it? Is it just there for looks or something ?

Please explain why someone can be soo cynical that they can not believe that a coin can be produced and go through an entire packaging and delivery system to land in your hands in perfect ( as far as MINTED , not MYTHICAL) condition?

I personally applaud folks for having an opinion ....I mean , it is great that we can still think in this free country of ours in this day and age , but lets not box OURSELVES in by creating and un-penetrable barrier in our belief that a coin can not be made AT ALL in perfect -as PRODUCED ( man-made , not God made) condition.

 

I think that some of us are getting a little too high above our own heads with this beat to death issue , through our own self-created limitations here. Stop making another box.

 

End Rant .

 

Ok , now to get back to the FUN show and look for some more 70's .....I mean 70 graded or gradeable QUALITY material.

 

I'm sure that there are those that might feel it is sacrilege to think that anything can be perfect , but the supreme omnicient one alone , but sit back and look what we are talking about here....little coins. C'mon. We have a grade number ...either use it or get rid of it and go up to 69 ....then say we have a perfect grade # 100 which we , in the hobby refuse to use . I think we would look rather silly to any other hobby , by chopping our own legs and looking goofy like that.

 

The grade 70 is a real grade . How it is determined and used by grading companies is a WHOLE entire different argument itself , but the GRADE is real and does exist and is being used . Period . Get used to it or change it .

 

NOW what one person, as an individual feels, the parameters are for the use of that grade is also , another argument unto itself also.

Don't cry dismay at a grade , and it actually being used ....lets hear what the actual deficiency is.....is it personal taste , maybe ?

 

Tennets:

 

** Do I really think that a coin can be perfect ? I do not think a coin is all-knowing and can create order out of chaos .

 

**I do not think that , short of every free person in this country being able to afford and use an electron microscope and all the testing equipment to be able to determine the exact weight and metallic content and consistency of a little or large coin is going to be possible , so we will always say that weight between versus exact weight of and proper mix of ( alloys)....that right there is good stuff for those that really wanna get to the nitty-gritty....70=perfect weight and precise metal mix to the last ION .

 

** this argument gets brought up all the time and ends up being a whine-fest about the 70s costing soo much . Get over the price ...want a free one ? PM me ....Really , but be prepared to give your name and address ....you could end up with a really inexpensive modern state quarter with a 70 grade but the weight being within a tolerable range versus and exact weight ....would you be able to live with yourself KNOWING your perfect coin is weighed within a RANGE and NOT a perfect exact perfect number? No really , lets NIT-Pick perfect down to the very extreme details....really nit-pick it to death .

 

** If if is going to be under just one consistent format .....YEUP IT is time to pick a color . How can we have any toning on something perfect? Discoloration ....eeeek , but then what color is the only allowable and perfect one , and what sheen and amount of EXACT luster are we going to pick?

 

*** Lets keep digging this hole. I'm game .

 

 

Oh yeah , do not read this like it is written with any anger or malice ...I'm writing in JEST of the SUBJECT itself . IF you feel attacked or provoked .....you really do need to get out more often ...really .

 

Time to get back to the FUN show. THe hobby . Remember when you used to have fun with this stuff ? This HOBBY? They are only coins , why are some of you making WORK out of this? Is that why it is not fun anymore for those particular folks? Fussing about a grade number? fussing about money over money itself.... I get a kick outta that one.

It is really simple , so simple a three year old gets it every time...if you think you'll be getting yourself upset over spending money to buy money...don't do it. etc.

Ya'll have a good one , I'm gonna find some poor dealer to hassle about his 'terrible' grading 'lack-o-skills' WITHOUT even looking at any of his coins , because it is the grade that is important , not the coin anymore... , yeah right.

 

I can't believe anyone is still reading this dribble this far down...congrats ! you have earned something ....I dunno yet , but PM me and I'll see what I can find that is coin and send it to ya for the extra effort ....I'm still enjoying this as a hobby as a 42 year old with over 30 years in it and you should be too .

 

If ya wanna nit-pick anything , pick apart my endless bad spelling and grammar , but by golly , don't beat up my favorite grading companies and their neat an tidy little slabs with the market making version of the little numbering system. If there weren't people that wanted to pay for this stuff , why is it here? ...and further why hang out on one such company's website and blast them over and over.....cause it's fun , of course ....just think we could find another hobby like STAMP collecting.....crud , I already do that too...there's got to be something else to do that is just perfect.

[coinman1794]

"I can't agree with this. A 69 must have a flaw that is greater than any flaws on a 70.. unless it has been incorrectly graded 70 which is a moot point (its not really a 70)"

 

My point exactly. The 69/70 thing is a "luck of the draw" type grading by the TPGs. That's why SOME 69's are nicer than SOME 70's. Seriously, take 5 RANDOM 69's, and 5 RANDOM 70's, cover the grades, then pick the 70's, and see how many you pick correctly (maybe not truly "correctly", but correctly as to what is on the slab)

 

Actually, in terms of NGC's published standards, the MS70's that you see that seem to have flaws actualy have mint-made, as-struck annomilies. Tiny strike-thru marks are the most common flaws on moderns, but I've also seen some strange die defects that resembled ticks, but actually are not.

 

I have experimented with resubmitting NGC MS69s that I felt should have graded MS70, and I've never gotten an upgrade. Also, when I buy silver eagles and examine them, I have a 90% accuracy rate of picking the MS70s out. If you can distinguish between actual contact marks and mint-made imperfections, then you have mastered the standard used at NGC. It's that simple.

 

There are alwasy exceptions, of course. Keep in mind that ALL grades are inconsistently applied, so ALL grades are going to have examples that are overgraded.

[RareSov]

Yeah I agree. NGC policy is "as struck". If there is a tiny flaw that is mint made, it is fine, the coin could still grade 70

 

Considering that grading has since the dawn of collecting been about "the state of preservation of a coin" I agree with this policy.

 

I stand by my words and challenge anyone to cover up 5x69's and 5x70's and send them to me. If I'm wrong on any of the 10 coin's I'll pay for the postage both ways. If I'm right on all 10 you pay for postage both ways