1803 Draped Bust Large Cent opinions please

[jesbroken]

I would appreciate your opinions on this 1803 Draped Bust Large Cent I purchased recently. It has a few dings in it but I don't think it takes away too much, but you let me know what you think. This is the only photo I have until I receive the coin, but I would like your take on its grade and look.

Thanks

Jim

 

[dean1345]

Nice coin color and hair detail I would grade it F-15 to VF-25 range. Nice coin

 

Dean

[coinman1794]

It may just be the lighting angle, but the surfaces look kind of slick like they were cleaned. Looks VF25-30, otherwise.

[RI AL]

Personally, I really like the look of the coin. The color might be a bit light, but as someone else mentioned, it could be lighting. Grading, I would give it a VF 25 to 30. Not that you asked...but as best as I can determine (I like doing this) I think it is a Sheldon 260. This is a "very common" variety but who cares. It's a handsome coin. It will make a really nice addition to your set.

 

RI AL

[James_OldeTowne]

It might be a market-grade VF-20 coin, but just barely. I would feel better at F-15.

 

The profusion of handling marks and the rim issues probably put it at the EAC 10 to 12 level.

 

I'm assuming the color is more natural appearing in person....

[BillJones]

It appears to be nice coin, and the kind of peice that hard to find in today's market. Most of the pieces like this are now in collections and not on the bourse floor.

 

I'd grade it VF-20 with detail worthy of a VF-30. If the EAC grade is as low as VG-10 or Fine-12, those dealers would want VF ++ money for it any way because of the decent brown surfaces.

[jesbroken]

Bill,

I received the coin today and here is the actual color(sorry my photo is poor due mainly to the coin holder and my ineptitude at photography may contribute, also)

Thanks to all who replied.

Jim

 

[RI AL]

Now I like it even more. I still feel comfy with VF-25 or so. I need to research EAC grading standards (almost joined once...I just don't specialize in early coppers) but I know they are tougher than "standard" grades. Regardless, I think you have a really nice coin there!!!

[James_OldeTowne]

I like the color somewhat better and the surfaces slightly better in the new images, so I now lean toward my upper commercial estimate of VF-20. I still think the EAC grade is around 12, though. It's definitely better than most of the garbage on the market these days!

[BillJones]

Now I like it even more. I still feel comfy with VF-25 or so. I need to research EAC grading standards (almost joined once...I just don't specialize in early coppers) but I know they are tougher than "standard" grades. Regardless, I think you have a really nice coin there!!!

 

EAC grading is part tougher and at times more realistic standards AND part politics. Almost all early copper coins have one problem or another. Also some early copper has had some conservation things done to it, which disqualifies many coins from grading. For those reasons some really nice copper coins can’t be graded in an NGC or PCGS slab, and yet some stuff, that is barely above the level of junk in my opinion has been graded.

 

The political part of EAC grading comes in when a new challenger to the labels “finest known” or “among the finest known” come into play. One way the owner of previously finest known example can preserve his territory, at least for a while, is to hide behind EAC grading. The coin in plain sight is downgraded using "EAC standards" while the piece not in hand is a "great coin" that meets them.

 

Some of the guys who maintain EAC condition census data are well aware of this phenomenon. The polite way to put it is, “Some piece that were previously highly regarded have sometimes not lived up their reputations.”

 

[RI AL]

BillJones...Good morning!

 

Thanks for the info on EAC grading. I knew that their standards were tougher, but the addition of the "politics" into the mix makes it that much more interesting. I have a EAC application in my Penny Whimsey book, and have often thought of signing up...the problem is that I only have 1 of each major type of large cent (except 1793 wreath), and am lacking the 1793 half cents in the half cent series. With such a small collection of early coppers, I probably wouldn't be the most avid member.

 

Does EAC have a means of certifying their graded coins? How does one know if a coin has an EAC grade? Maybe I'll hit their site and see what I can come up with.

 

Thanks for your reply and information!

 

Alan Ri Al

[BillJones]

EAC has no certification service. They are dead set against slabs for a very good reason. Slabs are potential moisture traps and therefore are not good for copper, especially early copper, which is supposed to be pure copper. You have to be careful that a slabbed copper coin is stored at a constant temperature in low humidity. I’ve never had problems, but I’ve been careful too.

 

About the closest you will ever get to an EAC grading guide is the series of books that William C. Noyes published in 2006 and 2007. Noyes has an extensive collection of photos of the finest known early large cents by variety. He has published the books for 1793 – 1794 and 1795 – 1797. They are (were) not cheap at over $200 a piece. BUT they are truly wonderful. The photos are in color and it’s closest thing you will have to owning the most wonderful early large cent collection in the world. All of the coins are graded by EAC standards, and you learn their system which includes net grading which is essential when you are trying to form a condition census.

 

As for becoming an EAC member, it may or may not be worth it for you. A lot of the articles are very technical and as a type collector some of them don’t mean a lot of me. I did collect half cents by die variety years ago, so I’m not exactly a novice on that type of collecting. But I sold the collection years ago, and I don’t do that any more.

 

The EAC conventions are really great. It’s one of the few places where you can go and see a lot of copper coins offered at one bourse. You can also find other 19th century coins there too. I’ve bought a number of really great gold and silver coins at EAC conventions over the years. Here are a couple of them to give you an idea.

 

 

 

The great thing about the EAC convention is that it about as pure collector as you can get. Nobody there talks about “investments” and “investment hype” there. It’s all for learning and seeing some really great material.

[James_OldeTowne]

Does EAC have a means of certifying their graded coins? How does one know if a coin has an EAC grade? Maybe I'll hit their site and see what I can come up with.

 

A criticial aspect of the EAC that is usually missed is the fact that we believe in maintaining the intact pedigree of coins. Thus, you will often see a copper in a paper flip with much writing on, and frequently, it is pedigree information - past owners, when and where it was bought, etc. Don't think that this is just for famous coins, either! Many, many coppers below the $50 threshold are just as lovingly tracked from owner to owner of the years.

 

The point of this is that although such coins are not "certified", their history is maintained, and if you feel confident about the legitimacy of the pedigree, then you have something that is much more useful than a slab - you have the coin's history! And therefore, you are much better informed as to its value on the market.

 

I'd say that EAC grading standards are not "tougher" than commercial grading standards, but they are more explicit and rigid. I unquestionably wish that certification would have been predicated on technical grading, rather than market grading, as that would have helped to curtail gradeflation and coin doctoring to some extent.

[BillJones]

I'd say that EAC grading standards are not "tougher" than commercial grading standards, but they are more explicit and rigid. I unquestionably wish that certification would have been predicated on technical grading, rather than market grading, as that would have helped to curtail gradeflation and coin doctoring to some extent.

 

The trouble with technical grading is that coin can be ugly as sin (PC translation: esthetically challenged) and get a grade that many collectors is too high. So far as I’m concerned, if I find a coin unattractive regardless of the grade, I don’t want it.

 

And yes, EAC grading is a lot tougher than commercial grading. I can go through the EAC annual auction catalog and find coins that I think are massively under graded. The trouble is the prices bid are usually so strong, that you can’t buy much of anything.

 

Interestingly many years ago when Roger Cohen died, who wrote the “Little Half Sisters” books, his collection was sold by the old Superior auction house. (NOT the same ownership as today). One EAC member commented that the grades assigned to Roger’s coins were much too low and would not give his collection the reputation it deserved in the future. I agreed with that assessment wholeheartedly.

 

[CarolinaCollector]

VF-20.