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White( or mostly white) and original coin.....what's the oldest date?

Started by toyonakataro,

31 posts in this topic

toyonakataro

toyonakataro

Posted
Posted

What is the oldest whilte/or mostly white coin you have seen?

Date? Denomination?

 

I don't have a skill to tell dipped white coin from original white coin, but I own a half dime from 1860's whitch has light gray tone(mostly white) with very thick luster.

I think it might be original.

 

For foregin coins, I've seen many blast white Japanese coins from early 1870's.

They had been stored in original rolls for many years and opened recently.

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James_OldeTowne

James_OldeTowne

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There an uncirculated bust half that's been lacquered floating around somewhere, and it is white. Of course, we don't know for sure when it was lacquered, but it is possible.

 

Also, I forget the details, but there was some guy who was an engineer or scientist or something (English, I think?), and he encapsulated some coins in airtight copper bubbles around 1750 or so. Some of the coins that were in the bubbles have been since removed, and sure enough, they were as pure and untoned as the day they were encapsulated.

 

I wish I remembered the details of this story. Some of the bubbles hit the market only about eight years ago or so.

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Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

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And it is orginal.

 

I doubt it. It looks dipped - the devices show signs of frost being taken off through 'collector care'.

 

 

Also, I forget the details, but there was some guy who was an engineer or scientist or something (English, I think?), and he encapsulated some coins in airtight copper bubbles around 1750 or so. Some of the coins that were in the bubbles have been since removed, and sure enough, they were as pure and untoned as the day they were encapsulated.

 

Wasn't it James Watt [father of the steam engine or something like that]. They were all copper English coins, tho.

 

I have an 1875 trade dollar that I know for a fact is original because it appeared [out of a time capsule?] looking exactly like it does now in 1975. I have an 1837 half that I suspect is original as Miss Liberty has full mint frost & patina on her cheek.

 

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BillJones

BillJones

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About the only silver coins that are original and white are Morgan Dollars that have spent the first 80 or so years of their existence in a mint bag. The would put the earliest coin at 1878 for me.

 

Virtually any old silver coin (from 1900 or earlier) that is white has been dipped EXCEPT for Morgan dollars.

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rbrown4

rbrown4

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TDN

 

Another member also pointed out to me the extremely likely possibility that the Quarter Dollar had been dipped at some point. This just goes back to my learning about the hobby more and more as time goes on. Although the coin has been graded by NGC as MS 63, I now realize and should have understood that most likely many of these older silver coins had in fact been "dipped".

 

As always I welcome and appreciate the feedback on these forums.

 

Rey

 

 

 

 

 

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MikeInFL

MikeInFL

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That all depends on how you define "white". ;)

 

Personally, I've not seen coins earlier than the Barber coinage that I was sure that they were white and original. My grandparents had some barber coinage they from their childhood that were relatively untoned and stored with loose change in a mason jar. I'm sure others exist, I've just never seen them.

 

While not "white" like silver, there are copper coins from several hoards that include red specimens from before 1820 (Randall Hoard), and I believe there is also another hoard from the late 1790s too (Nichols Find) but am unsure if it included full red coins....Mike

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Conder101

Conder101

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Posted
Also, I forget the details, but there was some guy who was an engineer or scientist or something (English, I think?), and he encapsulated some coins in airtight copper bubbles around 1750 or so. Some of the coins that were in the bubbles have been since removed, and sure enough, they were as pure and untoned as the day they were encapsulated.

 

 

Wasn't it James Watt [father of the steam engine or something like that]. They were all copper English coins, tho.

The man you are looking for was Watt's partner Matthew Boulton.

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rbrown4

rbrown4

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I must say that through this post and some PMs with other members, this has been a true eye opening experience for me as far as what is original, white, etc. Thanks for the post.

 

So let me throw this one out there and any comments, opinions are welcome. This one has always worried me because of the "brightness".

 

1904LibertyNickelObv.jpg

1904LibertyNickelRev.jpg

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IGWT

IGWT

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Rey -- The LibNick has almost certainly been dipped; but, and I write this with respect, it isn't something that should be "worried about." Coins are what they are when we cross their paths in time. Eye appeal today is focused on "orginality," but, of course, that wasn't always the case. Consider the following comments by one of the most experienced and successful numismatists of our time.

 

Jim Halperin has written that eye appeal is one factor in grading a coin, weighted the same as strike and luster, but given just half the value of surface preservation. In explaining eye appeal, he writes:

 

"If lustre sounds subjective to you (it really isn't, it just takes a lot of experience to evaluate it) just wait until you learn about eye-appeal. Eye-appeal is, by far, the most subjective aspect of grading.

 

. . . .

 

"Since eye-appeal can be so important, it is critical that you develop a sense for it an art critic's eye for the aesthetically pleasing. My best friend, Marc Emory probably has the best eye for quality in the coin business today. Marc taught me almost everything I know about eye-appeal. He believes, as I do, that eye appeal can best be divided into three distinct areas: Toning, balance, and that certain inexplicable: aesthetic attractiveness."

 

Do you agree with that statement? Read on for a good example of the importance of eye appeal:

 

"To give you an idea about the importance of eye-appeal, I will now tell you my favorite rare coin war story. In late 1979, Jerry Cohen, then a partner in the Abner Kreisberg Corporation, held a coin auction in Los Angeles. It was an especially beautiful sale with many interesting coins. One of the most interesting (and rare) coins in that sale was a 1795 Small Eagle bust dollar, described simply as Uncirculated. It was a gem coin with superb surfaces, lustre and strike. Unfortunately, the toning was positively hideous. The coin simply lacked eye-appeal.

 

"The Coin Dealer Newsletter listed "bid" that week at $22,500 in MS-65, and most of the top dealers (myself included) were willing to bid somewhere in the $20,000-$25,000 range for the coin. Steve Ivy, my good friend, but also at that time my arch rival (we're now business partners - how the world changes!) bought the coin for $28,000.

 

. . . .

 

"I suppose I had some reservations about dipping the coin. Even for an expert, dipping a coin is a risky undertaking. (And I would never recommend that a novice ever dip a coin). What if the toning hid some unpardonable flaw? Or what if the lustre became dull as a result of the dipping? Still; no guts, no glory!

 

"A quick dip in Jewel Luster produced the most stunning, blazing white semi-prooflike gem early U.S. silver coin I had ever seen! Really, nothing had changed except the eye-appeal factor. The coin was transformed from a "technical MS-65" with no eye-appeal, to a wonder coin, a coin that had it all. The coin that Steve couldn't sell now had suitors waiting in line. There were literally half a dozen knowledgeable buyers begging me to give them first shot at the coin. I sold it to a dealer in the Boston area for $137,500."

 

J. Halperin, How to Grade U.S. Coins (1990).

 

The "eye-appeal" factor -- the quality that most collectors appear to value above all else -- is the reason that explains dipping. It also explains explains artificial toning, and don't think that coins won't be made to look "original" if that is where the money is to be made. The market eventually gives us what we want. We should remember that when we place a high value on "eye appeal," whether it's a tone-free lustrous coin, a monster toner, or a piece that looks like you think it should after 150 years. Eye appeal is not only highly subjective, as Halperin writes, it's also transient.

 

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MikeInFL

MikeInFL

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TDN,

 

That's rather eye-opening, because from the photos I would have guessed it had been dipped and retoned.

 

Why I say this is that I don't see any skin whatsoever yet I see toning, which is usually something that I see on dipped and subsequently toned coins. hm

 

Do you care to comment?

 

Thanks...Mike

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Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

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Nope - never been dipped. Here's the story from Heritage 1990 ANA sale.

 

MINI-HOARD OF 1878-S TRADE DOLLARS

 

The following mini-hoard of 1878-S Trade Dollars is one of the many highlights offered in the 1990 ANA Sale. The story behind their discovery and inclusion in this sale is incredible. The consignor, (who we will call "Jim") one of the nicest and most pleasant people I've ever had the pleasure of meeting, had elderly next door neighbors that he was very close to. He would help and befriend them whenever the opportunity arose. Little did "Jim" know what was in store. Upon the death of the elderly couple, "Jim" was named executor of the estate - what little there seemed to be - and two requests were made; all financial instruments were to be left to a local university and all personal property would go to the executor. "Jim" went to the bank and opened the safe deposit box. Not expecting to see a great deal, he was taken back by the wealth before his eyes. The wealth however appeared to be all financial and thus left to the university. Among the tens of thousands of dollars in stocks and bonds there was also over $1 million in bearer bonds. Upon removal of all the papers, on the bottom of the drawer, just lying loose, were 25 1878-S Trade Dollars! As wonderful as this seemed, there was a dilemma. Were the coins "financial " and thus property of the university, or were they personal and thus the property of "Jim." After long discussions with the attorneys, it was decided that the coins would be divided equally - with 13 coins going to the university and the remaining 12 coins to "Jim."

 

The university immediately sold their coins to a local coin dealer. This dealer in turn sold them to a major west coast firm who submitted them to PCGS who in turn graded them mostly MS-65, with a few MS-64's and (2) MS-66. Point of fact: every known 1878-S Trade Dollar grading MS-65 or higher (at the time of this writing) can be traced back to this hoard of 25 coins. The only exception being the lone MS-67, which, as justice would have it, is also included in this incredible sale!

 

 

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robec1347

robec1347

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The only exception being the lone MS-67, which, as justice would have it, is also included in this incredible sale!

 

 

And of course, guess which one is yours. (thumbs u

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Tradedollarnut

Tradedollarnut

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The only exception being the lone MS-67, which, as justice would have it, is also included in this incredible sale!

 

 

And of course, guess which one is yours. (thumbs u

 

Actually, not. Grade inflation being what it is, mine was one of the MS66's and sold for about $50k in the 1990 sale [amazingly enough, I bought it as an MS67 a decade later for only $40k!]. The original MS67 ended up in the Knoxville Collection and was years later upgraded by NGC to MS68 and eventually crossed to PCGS. It is technically all there, but somewhat mottled and lacking in eye appeal .... I had three or four opportunities to buy it and passed each time. I prefer the WOW! look of my coin ... plus I like the story of how it was found in my home town of Seattle.

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MBA101

MBA101

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This is a great story. And it reminds me of the three Busties that Mike King snagged in the latest Sheridan sale that were found in a safe after 100+ years.

 

A great and wonderful coin TDN! Thanks for sharing!

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IGWT

IGWT

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I agree with you, eye appeal is number 1 and would be the deciding factor between 2 coins of different grades.

 

Which is why coin doctors flourish.

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IGWT

IGWT

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I didn't realize that coin doctors were responsible for all the coins with eye appeal.

 

That's not what I wrote or implied. My comment should be taken in the context of my earlier post.

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