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WYNTK---NGC Rejected for Wheel Mark
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30 posts in this topic

Hello Folks---- As most of you know, I have been using my own coins to show how NGC will either accept or reject coins for certain potential problems.

 

This week's example was the one coin that NGC BB'd out of 56 MS Walkers that I had sent this year. Most of them are now in my Registry Set.

 

This 1945 is a beautiful coin. It was among the grouping in the old Wayte Raymond pages that I had acquired. This coin has original NT and IMHO grades higher that the other 1945 that is in my Registry Set. It also has nicer toning IMHO.

 

What makes this coin interesting and very educational is that, after I got it back in an NGC BB, I decided to send it as part of my submission to PCGS. It was part of my "method of madness" as I term it.

 

1945NGCLabel_1.jpg

 

To my surprise, PCGS also BB'd the coin. Where NGC called it "Reverse Wheel Mark"---PCGS called it "Damage or Tooling---Counting Machine".

 

1945Label_1.jpg

 

I hear cheers coming from the PCGS fans out there!! But, I am not finished yet.

 

Because I am a glutton for punishment, I finally sent the coin to ANACS. You guessed it. It now sits in a holder marked MS-60 details "Counting Wheel Damage".

 

ANACSHolder.jpg

 

I now think that there is a common computer linkage set up between the three TPGS. When you look at the picture of the wheel mark(s), maybe you will think like I have in this matter. What were the odds that all three services would BB this coin? Yet all three saw the coin the the same light as it were.

 

1945WheelMark_Obv.jpg

 

1945WheelMark_Rev.jpg

 

Unless my eyes deceive me, these are the three small wheel marks on this coin---one of the three is virtually not there at all.

 

1945WheelMarks.jpg

 

I have seen terrible coins in slabs, and I certainly wouldn't own many of them that I have seen. Yet, I would buy this 1945 every time that it would be offered to me. It just goes to show what the services deem unacceptable. As I have heard from others, some "nice" coins get BB'd. This 1945 is certainly one of them.

 

So, what have I learned from this 1945 Walker?

 

1 - You can waste a few bucks trying to prove your point.

 

2 - The services are really tough if they see what they believe are wheel marks.

 

3 - The services can indeed be "fickle" about certain things that I personally do not agree with.

 

4 - I certainly will watch for wheel marks a little better in the future.

 

5 - I still like this Walker and, at least, I finally got it into a slab so it is now protected.

 

6 - If I had known what was to occur, I would have sent it to NCS at the beginning and had them put it into a "genuine" slab.

 

7 - ANACS only marks their problem coins that are of MS quality as MS-60 details. Wonder why? This MS- 65--66 Walker sure got a bum rap for a couple of wheel marks.

 

8 - I'd like to tell all three services that at least in this coin's situation, their policy on wheel marks leaves me puzzled.

 

My question to all of you---Would you BB this coin if it was up to you to decide? Opinions, please.

 

These continuing posts are designed to show the viewer what can happen at NGC or any other TPG. These posts are for educational purposes and NOT intended to do anything other than to present what has personally happened to me and my coins. You all have a nice day. Bob [supertooth]

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Bob, this situation can be open to a multitude of circumstances which can be interpreted in any number of ways, and very confusing to say the least.

 

Consider this hypothetical situation. A pile of Morgan dollars are dumped into a counting machine, and the reeding of one coin just happens to partially imprint itself on the face of Liberty of another coin. With no other negligible marks or heavy wear, this coin is still an MS63+. Why wouldn't this be considered counting machine damage?

 

Where your Walker is concerned, how can they determine without the least bit of doubt that it was caused by a counting machine in the first place? Isn't it plausible that this coin, while in circulation for a very brief period of time, was casually thrown into a cash register that had metal dividers for the coin compartments and it hit the edge of the divider? There are so many objects that could have been the culprit for the damage to your coin. Why shouldn't a TPGS just note the damage and grade it accordingly?

 

By the way, I like it too!

 

Chris

Edited by cpm9ball

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Bob, the three reverse marks in your image are not what I think of as "counting machine" or "wheel marks". And, while I haven't seen the coin in hand, I don't think that is the damage the grading companies body-bagged the coin for. Wheel marks typically manifest themselves in the form of a smooth, shiny area on a coin that looks similar to cleaning.

 

"counting machine mark

A dense patch of lines caused by the rubber wheel of a counting machine where the wheel was set with insufficient spacing for the selected coin. Many coins have been subjected to counting machines – among these are Mercury dimes, Buffalo nickels, Walking Liberty half dollars, Morgan and Peace dollars, and Saint-Gaudens double eagles."

 

"wheel mark

Synonymous with “counting machine mark.”"

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Agree with Feld -- there appears to be a "shiny" or "smoothed" area in the middle of the eagle which caused the BB.

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Bob, the three reverse marks in your image are not what I think of as "counting machine" or "wheel marks". And, while I haven't seen the coin in hand, I don't think that is the damage the grading companies body-bagged the coin for. Wheel marks typically manifest themselves in the form of a smooth, shiny area on a coin that looks similar to cleaning.

 

"counting machine mark

A dense patch of lines caused by the rubber wheel of a counting machine where the wheel was set with insufficient spacing for the selected coin. Many coins have been subjected to counting machines – among these are Mercury dimes, Buffalo nickels, Walking Liberty half dollars, Morgan and Peace dollars, and Saint-Gaudens double eagles."

 

"wheel mark

Synonymous with “counting machine mark.”"

 

Mark, could they be referring to the area to the left of "HALF DOLLAR" between 7 & 8 o'clock on the reverse?

 

Chris

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Bob, the three reverse marks in your image are not what I think of as "counting machine" or "wheel marks". And, while I haven't seen the coin in hand, I don't think that is the damage the grading companies body-bagged the coin for. Wheel marks typically manifest themselves in the form of a smooth, shiny area on a coin that looks similar to cleaning.

 

"counting machine mark

A dense patch of lines caused by the rubber wheel of a counting machine where the wheel was set with insufficient spacing for the selected coin. Many coins have been subjected to counting machines – among these are Mercury dimes, Buffalo nickels, Walking Liberty half dollars, Morgan and Peace dollars, and Saint-Gaudens double eagles."

 

"wheel mark

Synonymous with “counting machine mark.”"

 

Mark, could they be referring to the area to the left of "HALF DOLLAR" between 7 & 8 o'clock on the reverse?

 

Chris

Chris, without seeing the coin in hand, I can't tell where the damage is. One area that caught my eye as a possibility however, is the lighter colored left obverse field from about 8:00 to 9:00. Perhaps that is where the wheel mark is, but it might just be the result/effect of less toning there than on the rest of that side.

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I agree with Mark, and it's the first thing I thought of when I saw your closeup images. Those three marks are not counting wheel marks, but are normal bagmarks. Unfortunately, from the images, I can't see the counting wheel marks. Look carefully at the rims, as sometimes, the damage shows up there, and can guide you to where on the surfaces the damage appears as well.

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If this is the coin I think it is, then I have seen it in-hand at Bob's house and I think the damage that the TPGs have bagged it for is something other than the set of three marks shown. Again, I'm not certain I have seen this coin, but I strongly think I have, and my gut reaction was that there was something else about the coin that flagged it.

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Guess I should try to explain myself a bit more about this 1945. And, yes Tom, it is the one that you saw at the house.

 

My first impression, when I got the coin back in the BB from NGC, was to find out what I had missed. I have learned to NOT blame the guys at NGC---I look for what BOB missed. Was especially glad that Tom was coming to the house---as I knew that I would get another opinion on the coin.

 

As Connecticoin has stated, I was looking for something like a 'rub' of some kind----a 'shiny' place. I did not see anything that bothered me. Like James had said---I looked again at the rims---figuring that I must have missed something there. Still didn't see anything that bothered me.

 

However, what I did find were those three small but definite cuts that I have shown. Was convinced that they were done by a machine---as they had that stamped look to them. Like they had been sharply struck into the coin. A definite post mintage problem in my opinion.

 

Also have been thinking that maybe over 60 years in that Wayte page----has camouflaged some area that is NOT apparent to me---but seems to be apparent to all three grading services? The toning seems totally NT to me---as were all the other coins in the collection. There does not appear to be any disruption to the feathers of the Eagle's breast. Therefore I had discounted a 'rub' problem.

 

This is why I would like the grading services to 'explain' the problem areas a little better. Wouldn't take but a few additional words of explanation. And would save the owner of the coin a lot of headaches trying to figure it out sometimes. All I knew was that NGC had said it was a "reverse" problem.

 

Anyway, after Tom looked at the coin, neither of us had a definite answer. Like Tom, I did not feel that I would have put it into a BB for the three small digs. We just sort of threw our hands into the air---and that was that.

 

My only experience with a counting machine was in a coin shop about 1978 or there abouts. I was selling thousands of wheat cents all the way up to silver dollars to help pay for an 1871CC 20 dollar gold piece that I had just purchased. As I listened to the thump--thump--thump of the machine, I could see the Morgans revolving around to enter the counting process. I remember thinking how little anyone cared about the coins. Surely was NO cotton glove treatment. Am sure that Chris would have loved to have been able to check all those Unc. 1921 Morgans for possible Vam numbers. Often wonder what I might have sold??

 

Mark--- Not trying to leave you out of this. Wish that I had you here with me. Maybe you could see what I have failed to see? Maybe it is that my knowledge is just not good enough in this area?? Never let it be said that I am still not willing to learn. But, whatever it is, was enough to condemn what I considered to be a really decent coin. My comment to Tom was that NGC just had to BB something. That was an unfair remark---but one of frustration on my part for not being able to see the WHY of it. I was soooo very happy with the overall results from my submissions that I didn't let it bother me at the time. After PCGS and ANACS too gave me the BB---then it was a great coin for a WYNTK thread.

 

Will try to get Barb to take a picture or two---with more light. Maybe that might show some glare or something? If I find out anything more, I will post additional pictures. Am very happy for the replies so far. Thanks a lot. Bob [supertooth]

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Bob, I have taken a great deal of flak over the last year for complaining about the TPG's not explaining fully their reasoning for BB'ing a coin. This is certainly a great example of why they should be more detailed in their explanation. I have heard all the arguments that it's not their job, they would be putting theirselves out of business by giving away their secrets!, they warned us we would be charged anyway, blah, blah, blah. My point is, as this coin shows, how could it cost them anything just to have said,"Reverse wheel mark at 8:00-rub". This would have settled the issue in your eyes and any looking at the coin. You may not agree with it but you now truly got your money's worth-you paid for something and you should get it. JMO!

 

By the way, beautiful coin-I love it.

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I asked Bob if he cared to send the coin to me for my inspection and comments, he took me up on my offer and the coin arrived today.

 

I found the "wheel mark" and will post at greater length on the particulars later. In the mean time, below are two images I took of the coin and one of them shows the problem area. Here are a couple of hints to help you locate it: 1) In the original thread I wrote "Wheel marks typically manifest themselves in the form of a smooth, shiny area on a coin that looks similar to cleaning." and 2) The "wheel mark" is on the coin's reverse ;)

 

1945Walker1.jpg1945Walker2.jpg

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Follow-up from yesterday.....

 

 

When I received the package from Bob I first glanced at the coin in natural sunlight inside my car, outside the post office. I didn't see the wheel-mark, though, under the circumstances, that didn't surprise me.

 

After I got home I examined it far more thoroughly, with and without a loupe under an incandescent lamp. Much to my surprise and dismay, I saw a couple of areas that looked suspicious, but nothing conclusive. The longer I looked for the wheel-mark, the better I knew Bob would feel when I told him that I was having trouble detecting the flaw he couldn't find. I was almost at the point of contacting him to request his permission to take the coin to my next coin show in order to show it to a few dealers for their assessments.

 

Finally, I decided to try my halogen lamp, which I once kept on my desk and used almost all the time. But it drowns out the color on coins, so I haven't been using it much lately. As soon as I viewed the coin under the halogen lamp the wheel-mark became obvious. I was reminded again that halogen lamps often reveal flaws (such as hairlines, cleaning, etc.) which cannot otherwise be detected, or at least not to the same degree, under other types of light.

 

I then examined the coin under incandescent light again, and even knowing where the flaw was, could barely detect it. Tilting the coin just right and imaging it, however, allowed for a decent view of the affected area - see the second image in my previous post and the five wing feathers to the left of the eagle. Please note that the lighter area at the lower left wing of the eagle (to viewer's right) is merely a lighter area on the coin and not a wheel-mark.

Edited by MarkFeld

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I have seen many Walkers in slabs with small marks like that seen on the eagle. Those marks would certainly lower the grade to no better than MS-64, but I can't see body bagging the coin for them.

 

The other point about smoothing on the eagle might be valid. I can't say without seeing the coin in person. A great many Walkers are weakly struck in that area of the eagle because it is opposite Ms. Liberty's body. Her body also ends up poorly struck, but you see that most often on S-mint coins.

 

Still you are right. When the TPGs take your money and give you nothing but a body bag, the consuter deserves more.

 

Edited to say: Now that I've seen the hologen light photos the problem is now obvious.

Edited by BillJones

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Edited to say: Now that I've seen the hologen light photos the problem is now obvious
Bill, for the record, the image wasn't shot with a halogen light. I could see the affected area clearly with 1) my halogen lamp and 2) through the camera shot taken with incandescent lighting. But I could barely detect the problem without the camera when using my incandescent lamp. Sorry for the confusion.

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Hello Folks---- Would like to publicly thank Mark Feld for his help with this 1945 coin. Would also say that I do hope that at least a few of you have learned as much as I have because of this thread.

 

You know, I have had many reasons for continuing these WYNTK threads. The main one was to share whatever I know---and hope that others would also do the same in areas of their expertise.

 

One of the other reasons for these current grouping of posts was to try and show what the NGC graders do and don't allow into a holder. But, indirectly, I wanted to give a LEFT HANDED compliment to the graders themselves. I have seen soooooo many folks complain about what they didn't get---or what they did get. Mostly, they were just frustrated----and needed to vent. But, I wanted to openly sort of vindicate the NGC guys by using my coins to show the "WHY" of what they do or don't do down there in Florida.

 

This 1945 Walker again shows that in the few BB that Bob has gotten----NGC was "right on" again---- Bob didn't see it----and now, thanks to Mark----we all have had a wonderful learning experience.

 

There is sooooo much to be reinforced here. Watch out for the pictures---different lighting sources---tilt and rotate the coins when viewing---GO BUY A HALOGEN light---- Swallow your pride and be HUMBLE as coins are a learning experience----more than one would expect, there are folks who ARE better than you out there----instead of complaining about the BB, go out there and find out why you were wrong. Because, my dear friends, I am living proof that we collectors DO make mistakes too. Never be ashamed to ask questions. No matter how good you are, you can always learn more that you didn't know. I figure that I have about a hundred bucks into this coin----which is now only worth about 30 bucks. But the knowledge that I have gained is "invaluable". I am tickled to have gained more ground in my quest for knowledge.

 

And yes, I was delighted because this coin made Mark work. That made me feel better. In the end, his ability to use the halogen lamp was the key. My wife is at this moment buying me that lamp---which I should have owned years ago---and knew it. Somehow you tend not to buy the materials or the books that are VITAL for the knowledge that you need. We all have to keep climbing up the ladder of coin knowledge. You all have a nice Sunday. Bob [supertooth]

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Alas, I too have learned from this thread. I found that a Franklin I purchased raw as a 1956 MS-65 FBL DDO-002 appears to have wheel marks on Franklin's jaw. They are not as severe as the ones on this Walker, but I'm afraid it will do him in.

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Bob, thank you for your many efforts on behalf of others.

 

I think everyone here should know that Bob has an unusual ability which serves him extremely well in his quest for knowledge and education about coins. That ability is to be open-minded and inquisitive, rather than defensive and pig-headed when he doesn't get the grading results he hopes for/expects. For example, if he gets a coin body-bagged for cleaning, he doesn't assume that the grading company has erred. Instead, he asks "what did I miss that they saw" and proceeds on that basis. Sure , there are plenty of times when the grading companies get it wrong. However, I believe that there are far more times when the submitter has it wrong, but for any one of many possible reasons, won't or can't look at the coin objectively.

 

I remember when I was a grader at NGC and we would sometimes get complaints from submitters about their grading results BEFORE they had their coins coins back in hand. That obviously meant that they had not yet re-examined the coins to see if perhaps they, and not we had missed something.

 

Any collector or dealer would benefit greatly by following Bob's example when it comes to open-mindedness. (thumbs u

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Excennent post and tremendously educational. Thanks Bob, Mark and others.

 

Rey

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jesbroken

 

I agree with you on your experience with TPGS and taking flack by complaining about it. I think to respond to the indifference of the "no grade" is to simply quit. Don't argue or protest but vote with your wallet. If you want to put a collection together perhaps bargans can be had because there is a problem. So instead of buying the holder buy the coin instead. However, the grading companies want their cake and eat it too. For example, this marketing gimmick of REGISTRY coins. This can only serve to greese the wheels of the TPGS's bottom line. For this reason I reject this idea outright. Its an 'ego' thing. Like my dog is bigger than your dog mind set. My collection is my business and to advertise this I think is asking for trouble. Ok show your collection to your wife or a good trustworthy friend but to blantly advertise it indicates to me you are part of the grading problem and not the solution. Now for some I may receive a thumbs down and that's ok because it is your opinion but for others there is truth in what I say.

 

As my complaining about "Altered Surfaces" designation is similar to the above post on "counting wheel damage" I believe we are in the minorty for the moment. However, silence is not an option when it comes to truth. Being silent is in effect being part of the problem and not part of the solution. So for what's its worth jesbroken I am for you and for the others who will agree to my post. Thank you.

 

 

Edited by Smilie Puss

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Can someone fix the pictures on this ? I really wanna see this coin :)

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PS great posts supertooth, it is important the result of grading is the TRUTH not anything else :)

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I wonder if any of the grading services (including NGC) ever considered something like an an OPINION fee. Add a check box on the submission form that states for $10 you can get a detailed explanation of why the coin got a details grade or could not be graded at all. Just think of all the extra money they could rake in along with all the other fees they get these days. It would take a grader less than 10 mins to input an opinion into the computer and then it gets printed along with your receipt and mailed back to you.

 

MAN that would save so much speculation on OUR part as to why these things happen.

 

As always the above is just MY OPINION....

 

Have a great day

Jim

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I wonder if any of the grading services (including NGC) ever considered something like an an OPINION fee. Add a check box on the submission form that states for $10 you can get a detailed explanation of why the coin got a details grade or could not be graded at all. Just think of all the extra money they could rake in along with all the other fees they get these days. It would take a grader less than 10 mins to input an opinion into the computer and then it gets printed along with your receipt and mailed back to you.

 

MAN that would save so much speculation on OUR part as to why these things happen.

 

As always the above is just MY OPINION....

 

Have a great day

Jim

 

What financial incentive is there for NGC to do this, when many people fail to see the problem. As a result, they submit the coin multiple times, allowing NGC to acquire the same fee multiple times. This sounds wonderful for NGC to me.

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I think its a good idea I just had a Trajan Sestertius I paid $35 to get graded and they came back with tooled.I have no idea where the tooled areas are as its a nice coin and was suprised to see that happen.I looked at it again todat trying to figure out where the problem is and I did not see it.I would pay $10 for an explanation or the fact that they looked at it and did nothing and still charged me $35 is a bit of a rip off as the time it would have taken them to put into a holder etc they could have given a detailed explanation as to why and where the problem is.

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It would take a grader less than 10 mins to input an opinion into the computer and then it gets printed along with your receipt and mailed back to you

And during those 10 minutes that is 20 coins (or more) he didn't grade. 20 coins at $17 a coin is $340 income loss for your $10 explanation. Now if you would like to pay them say $400 for an explanation I'm sure they would probably be willing to give you that ten minutes.

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It would take a grader less than 10 mins to input an opinion into the computer and then it gets printed along with your receipt and mailed back to you

And during those 10 minutes that is 20 coins (or more) he didn't grade. 20 coins at $17 a coin is $340 income loss for your $10 explanation. Now if you would like to pay them say $400 for an explanation I'm sure they would probably be willing to give you that ten minutes.

 

You really don't want to know how little time it takes them to grade your coins. Pretend it's 1 minute. So if you want something like this, charge a flat $15 per coin, only if it doesn't come back graded. You'll get a very sparse response of one or more problems or problem areas, and will have bought about another 10 seconds of viewing time, and 10 seconds to enter into their computer. Not worthwhile to them. Now if this fee is paid in advanced and non-refundable it sounds great to them, as on some % of their submissions they're just making an extra $15/coin.

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I had same thing happen to a 1919 Buffalo nickel that I thought would grade no problem in the MS grades; you guess it, the mysterious "wheel mark" notation. Same thing at PCGS.

 

Some day we will be able to buy an optical scanning tool that you will be able to aim at a coin and it will link up with an exhaustive database on the internet and then show on the image window approximate grade and any problems like this. It would save us all a lot of problems.

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I wonder if any of the grading services (including NGC) ever considered something like an an OPINION fee. Add a check box on the submission form that states for $10 you can get a detailed explanation of why the coin got a details grade or could not be graded at all. Just think of all the extra money they could rake in along with all the other fees they get these days. It would take a grader less than 10 mins to input an opinion into the computer and then it gets printed along with your receipt and mailed back to you.

 

MAN that would save so much speculation on OUR part as to why these things happen.

 

As always the above is just MY OPINION....

 

Have a great day

Jim

 

What financial incentive is there for NGC to do this, when many people fail to see the problem. As a result, they submit the coin multiple times, allowing NGC to acquire the same fee multiple times. This sounds wonderful for NGC to me.

it is what it is ( this time for ngc )

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While I find this post informative the photos are no longer available for the coin which is spoken of. Probably old post but, still of value. Hence, I feel I am missing a lot without not being able to view the coin of topic. Therefore, I would recomment that the post be removed.

 

slingshot

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