GoldFinger1969

DPLs by NGC are apparently rarer than PL's by PCGS. The PL results in a 25-35% boost in price; not sure what the DPL does. The near-$7K price you cited seems high, a relic from years ago when the prices were much higher. I'm seeing recent sales the last few months on HA for ~ $3,200 (including bp).

How much of a premium do folks pay for these ? Is there a reason -- it's not even a coin or commemorative, just an irregular-shaped block of metal AFAIK ?

Wow, that's a long time pre-internet to be without a local coin club. And on the heels of a decade of phenemonal gains for bullion and coins.

Nobody has any thoughts on the lush premium being charged for the 2009 UHRs ?

I'm a bit lost, so I'll see what others post. But if it is about a bag for coins, sometimes they are worth nice $$$. I thought it was about the article Roger wrote for a 1928 Double Eagle bag which he tied in to the story of the stolen 1928 Double Eagles (an entire bag of 500 Saints), though he never said it was THE bag that the stolen coins once resided in.

Is this about that article/write-up you did for a 1928 Double Eagle bag sold on HA ?

I've done presentations before -- investing and astronomy -- so the speaking and slide presentation part I think I know how to integrate them. I think I could do a decent presentation for beginners and intermediate collectors; not sure I'd have much to add for experts/advanced collectors but you can't please 'em all. Like I said, just fleshing it out now. Whether I submit it for a presentation down the line -- and when -- remains to be seen. I'd be OK doing it at a regional conference or even a larger one like FUN.

Just wanted to know who has done it....if they enjoyed it...reception...who they asked/approached to do it. Was re-staring a primer on Saints I thought I had started during Covid but apparently either lost or can't find where I saved it (thumb drive or what ?). So starting from scratch. Hence the inquiry.

No photography expert by a longshot...I just use my Galaxy S9 smarptphone on default settings...angling the coins at a 30-degree angle. Medium LED lights behind me and the shots look OK for the forums if not for HA or GC.

Fascinating to see the prices for older coins before the numismatic run-up for small denomination coins as well as the gold/silver coins before 1973.

Was wondering if anybody ever did a presentation at one of the Big National Shows -- or even the smaller regional ones, assuming they have them there, too. Anybody here ever do one ?

But depends on how you DEFINE it. If they asked some basic questions which fleshed out ACTIVITY and FREQUENCY of buying/selling and/or reading....that's one thing. You ask "Are you a coin collector ?" and anybody with the Special Quarter collection or a few stray coins is gonna say YES and the total will be 35 million Americans.

Sometimes on these things....you have to make a leap of faith. You know, like Indiana Jones in The Last Crusade !!

Those Chapman coins were kept in the ORIGINAL envelopes -- and didn't mar the surfaces ? Also...the famly that owned them was wealthy enough NOT to have to sell them -- and yet they thought they were worth "only" $50,000 ? Even in the age of the internet, they were off by a factor of 100 on the FMV ? JA said you see thise once in a Blue Moon....I think this shows that while there might be more out there (there certainly are)...there aren't DOZENS or HUNDREDS of sets like this or even approximating this set. A few raw coins here or there at best, IMO.

I think people like your boss were told the story of rising gold and silver prices....ditto some numismatics....thought that if they bought some of the Proof or Mint sets and just put them away for 20-30 years they'd go up in price. Not so.

Very interesting, thanks for the heads-up, WC. But I think this is the proverbial outlier, no ? I mean...we're talking here someone who worked with famous numismatists who lived over a century ago....who saved GOLD coins....coins in PRISTINE condition....and worth Big $$$. I don't think there are many entire collections like this just sitting in a vault, a home, or an attic.

Well, there's certainly value to lower-rated raw coins....but these won't really change the top pop census or the economics of a particular coin type or year/mintmark. That was my point. For this particular foreign coin, yeah, I see what you are saying. But for the coins an American kid or adult is likely to collect -- Saints, Morgans, Franklins, SLQ, Walkers, Lincoln Cents, etc. -- have we REALLY just scratched the surface of what is out there in the aggregate ? And what about in the top condition ? Even this Fairmont Hoard...if it's an amalgamation of various finds and put together as one big one for marketing purposes -- that would kind of prove my point. If what you guys are saying is true -- and I admit, you COULD be right and you have more experience here than me -- but if right, you are saying lots of Americans have coins worth lots of $$$ and in volumes that can greatly expand the existing population census in the next decade or two. So what's taking them so long to bring it to market or their heirs or their estates ? I guess that's what we are all waiting on, right ? I guess if it IS out there...we should see it in the next 10-20 years. People like my relatives who are passing on are now in their 80's and 90's...if we don't see it when these people die, then I would think it does NOT exist in any size. JMHO.

Worth gettiing graded, or coins that are going to be left raw since they are not in a high-enough condition to merit certification ?

2009 MMIX Ultra High Relief: RCTV was running a promo on the 2009 UHR Saint-Gaudens replica and emphasizing the dual planchet thickness. They also used the phrase "renaissance of American coinage." Not sure if it is a new or dated infomercial but they could probably just "remove" the old price logos if it ran a long time ago. With gold just under $2,400 old prices would be way too stale. Nonetheless....the asking price of $4,700 for an MS-70 was WAY too high. Recent sales prices are in the $2,800 range; even the MS-70PL designation would run you UNDER $3,500. So you are paying a rich premium for their telling of a good story, most of which is in any good book about the MCMVII UHR. I'm glad these infomercials have nice information; if they get people into the hobby or an appreciation for our coin heritage, overpaying once or twice isn't the worst thing in the world. I just wish the prices being advertised were a bit closer to the market.

I don't doubt that there is still (lots of) stuff out there that is grade-worthy and worth nice $$$....VKurt has intimated as much with all his auctions finds....Sandon and Zadok, too....but could top-pop, census-altering volumes STILL be out there...preserved pristinely....in high-grade and/or mint condition....by average folks...who know NOTHING about coins and/or PRESERVING coins... .the SAME people who think wiping a coin with a towel keeps it CLEAN and in GOOD condition ???!!! I could see top-half or top-quarter condition hoards coming out....but top-pop stuff ? That I definitely agree with as people may have specific MCMVII HR's inherited from parents who had no other interest in coins (remember the response of an SSCA buyer to QDB's invitation to get more coins), more general Saints (held as a form of gold if not for numismatic purposes), and ditto Morgans and other gold/silver coins serving a dual bullion-numismatic purpose (mostly bullion if the holders are older). But even for the stuff that I track (see above)....hasn't the RATE OF INCREASE slowed ? Yes, there are new submittances...new hoards....new SDB finds...new oveseas finds (i.e., Fairmont)....but it can't approximate what came out when the TPGs first came out during the heavy period of 1986-2006, the first 20 years, can it ? In 2 years, it'll be another 20 years (40 years total since the TPGs came out) and I can't see the split for most coins being greater than 70% the first 20 years....30% the last 20 years...if not closer to 80/20 or even 90/10.

We'd see more of them posting online, too.

Ben Bernanke wrote one, it's online. I highlighted some thoughts in the RWB Saints Thread.

Gold Standard, pre- and post-WW I: Roger's book talks about gold flows, the gold (exchange) standard, and central bank happenings. Ben Bernanke -- before he became Fed Chairman -- was a prolific researcher and author and wrote a review of Barry Eichengreen's Golden Fetters book about the gold policies of the 1920's and 1930's. Here he talks about what Eichengreen discusses as a key overlooked difference in global monetary policies before and after World War I: "With respect to the differences between the classical and interwar gold standards, Eichengreen emphasizes the twin themes of credibility and cooperation. He argues that, in the classical period, the commitment of major central banks to maintain the gold value of their currencies was highly credible. This credibility reflected less the status or behavior of central banks themselves than it did the particular political equilibrium (as well as the state of economic understanding) that prevailed at the time. Because of weak labor movements and a generally poor appreciation by the public of the links between monetary policy and the real economy, in the latter part of the nineteenth century there was little political pressure on central banks to manipulate the exchange rate in order to maintain high levels of output and employment. Further, in the prewar period it was widely expected that, in the event of an exchange rate crisis, the major central banks would cooperate to protect the established parities. When the Baring crisis of 1890 threatened the pound, for example, the Bank of England received loans (and promises of as much support as was needed) from the Bank of France and the Bank of Russia. This cooperation arose from the close relations that existed among central banks and the maintained view of central bankers that they all had a stake in the preservation of the international system. Eichengreen argues that the intrinsic credibility of central banks’ commitment to the gold standard, supplemented by the presumption of cooperation among central banks, implied that the bulk of speculation during the classical period would be stabilizing rather than destabilizing. For example, if a currency slipped beneath its official value, a speculative capital inflow would ensue in anticipation of a supporting action by the central bank. The possibility that the currency might instead be devalued (which, if widely accepted, would lead to destabilizing capital outflows) was usually given little weight. In contrast, according to Eichengreen, levels of credibility and cooperation were much lower under the interwar gold standard. First, domestic political equilibria were sharply changed by the war and the progressive social movements of the early twentieth century. In order to buy labor peace during the war, many governments greatly expanded the rights of workers to participate in the political process and to unionize. Extension of the franchise both to nonproperty-owners and to women sharply changed the compositions of legislatures and legislators’ constituencies. This democratization, coupled with a better understanding of the links between central bank actions and domestic economic activity, eliminated the presumption that external stability would always take precedence over internal stability as a goal for monetary policy. The political changes also led to distributional struggles among the classes, which increased uncertainty about fiscal policy and in particular raised the spectre of persistent deficits that might have to be monetized. In short, whatever the general desirability of post-World War I political changes, they increased the probability that the central bank would be forced to sacrifice defense of the exchange rate in order to achieve domestic output and employment objectives, or in order to finance the government’s deficit. Domestic political changes during the interwar period were matched by equally large changes in the international sphere. In the classical period, as we have said, a central bank facing an exchange rate crisis could have counted on substantial assistance from other central banks, either through loans or through coordination of discount rates. But this cooperation and mutual assistance withered in the postwar era of bad feeling, in which a variety of disputes, notably over the payment of reparations and the repayment of war debts, soured international relations at all levels. The potential for international cooperation was also reduced by the inexperience and inward-looking propensities of the Federal Reserve, which - reflecting America’s postwar economic and political dominance - would have been the obvious institution to take over the Bank of England’s mantle as the ‘conductor of the international orchestra’. Because of reduced credibility and cooperation in the interwar period, the presumption that central banks would always be able to defend the parity was greatly weakened in the interwar period. Speculation therefore became destabilizing, in that a weakening of a currency or a loss of reserves now prompted capital outflows rather than inflows. The consequences of this change in speculative behavior became clearest in the financial crises of 1931, in which central banks were forced either to abandon gold or to adopt extremely deflationary policies in order to defend the parity."

I don't see articles in the papers of the day talking about the citizens of the UK, Switzerland, Germany, etc.....engaging in the hoarding of gold and gold coins to the extent that the French did. Clearly, a cultural thing. Europe overall much more into gold coins than here in the States. French farmers, middle class, and professional class (doctors, lawyers, small businessmen) leading the charge. Not sure why...could go back to Napoleon. No history of devestating wars that I am aware of or hyperinflations in the 1800's. WWI did have an impact on the accumulation tendencies of the 1920's and 1930's but not sure about the herd instinct before then.

People....I clarified above. The French Central Bank also had big increases in reserves but eventually they stopped releasing gold as they realized it wasn't being used, just hoarded.