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Something that's been buging me for awhile now!

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CHRISTOS

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Ok you guys here is a question for you, and I know you may have dealt with this before!

"They say" the people that deal with coins that an NGC greated coin say MS70 is equal to a PCGS MS70. Keep in mind that we are talking about modern coins now 1990 or newer!

So if that is the case how come when you send PCGS coins MS or PR 70 to NGC for cross over you may get only 1 out 10 to come back 70 from NGC and vice a versa!

Is this an "ego thing" from the grading services or are they trying to say that the other company doesn't know what they are doing!

It just doesn't make any sense to me, unless when they are grading coins they just allocate  certain 70 and the rest 69 or lower!

I don't know! I just don't understand!

Thanks for your  patients!

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To be MS70 I think they have to be "perfect" under 5x magnification.

Many of these coins are made of cery soft metal that's easily damaged.

This leaves a few possibilities:

1) It is as you say

2) There was a small nick or flaw on the coin that the first company missed

3) Somehow a small flaw was introduced between one company grading and another company grading - maybe even during the first encapsulation process itself. If you crack it out yourself and send it in for regrading then there's even more chances for a coin to get nicked.

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2 hours ago, Revenant said:

To be MS70 I think they have to be "perfect" under 5x magnification.

Many of these coins are made of cery soft metal that's easily damaged.

This leaves a few possibilities:

1) It is as you say

2) There was a small nick or flaw on the coin that the first company missed

3) Somehow a small flaw was introduced between one company grading and another company grading - maybe even during the first encapsulation process itself. If you crack it out yourself and send it in for regrading then there's even more chances for a coin to get nicked.

I agree with the all above possibilities.....plus I have read that each company has different standards which can influence the grade of a coin in either MS or PF.... I have coins in my collection,,,, both world and U.S.  that is truly over graded and under graded  ..As the old saying goes buy the coin and not the holder. And as to one of your questions above submitting slabbed coins to the other grading TPG services will pretty much look for a reason to stick it to the other TPG .....IMHO.....Its just good business.

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If it was me dealing with modern coins, you would probably be money ahead to take the time to find the coin you want in the NGC holder and sell the PCGS coin outright. 

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You may not like the answer but I believe that if you sent in PCGS to NGC or NGC to PCGS as a crossover then it really is about ego with the graders. I have about 50% same or upgrade with ANACS small slabs ( quite a few actually go up) but the big 2 almost universally downgrade 75% of the time.

 

As an aside, I forget who did it but a collector/member tried an experiment a few years ago and posted the process on the chat boards/forums here. He sent in 20 ASE's and received MS69 and 70's on all 20 coins-- he documented each coin and photographed the process as he cracked out each coin and re-submitted them ( line by line and numbered on the submission form for accuracy).. the result? 13 of the 20 coins changed grades!-- with 6 former 69's becoming 70's and 7 70's dropping to 69's... I believe personally that as well as coins are minted and packaged today that 69 or 70 are indistinguishable 90% of the time.

Another story to finish-- I had a 1917-D reverse Walking Liberty Half graded as MS62 and felt it was nicer ( plus the price jumped, at the time, from $1500 in MS62 to over $2000 in 63).. I sent that sucker in TWICE for grade review and the coin was just sent back to me at the same grade with an invoice. I was so frustrated I ended up selling it to a dealer friend of mine for cash and a St Gaudens generic. Long story short, he sent it in again to NGC but this time cracked out of the PCGS holder -- he got an MS64 grade which was over $3500 back then. Never was sure whether it was because of his dealer status or the fact it was not in a PCGS holder but he got a significant 2 grade jump where I just got a charge on my debit card.

I have a discerning eye for Walkers and have 3 coins that I KNOW are undergraded or at least would be an easy + if sent by a dealer, but I will never waste the money again on regrades or crossovers.-- Crackouts are another story however, I have had some hit/miss luck with those ( but then the risk of a coin in a current NGC slab coming back as ungradeable is a big risk too as I have had about a half dozen NGC crackouts come back in a bodybag as "artificially toned" or "cleaned" when the coin was untouched from slab to flip to grader)

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11 hours ago, jackson64 said:

Crackouts are another story however, I have had some hit/miss luck with those ( but then the risk of a coin in a current NGC slab coming back as ungradeable is a big risk too as I have had about a half dozen NGC crackouts come back in a bodybag as "artificially toned" or "cleaned" when the coin was untouched from slab to flip to grader)

Yeah. This is probably one of the main reasons why that 1875 10G I have is still in a PCGS holder - the risk of cracking it out and losing the certification / grade it has is higher than I want to take.

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4 hours ago, Revenant said:

Yeah. This is probably one of the main reasons why that 1875 10G I have is still in a PCGS holder - the risk of cracking it out and losing the certification / grade it has is higher than I want to take.

I don't crack anything out anymore. NGC/PCGS it doesn't matter. If I like the coin, it stays in the holder. If I have an incomplete NGC registry set because the holder is not the right one, then so be it. Because after all, is it not more important that I have a complete set of coins than a complete registry set? Yeah, I wish things were the way they were but they are not. So I have adapted and moved on. I do try to buy NGC holdered coins but if I like a PCGS holdered coin and I buy it, it stays in the PCGS holder. That said, I'm glad for PCGS coins still being allowed in custom sets.

There is another problem with crossing PCGS coins over and its financial. I cannot lie to myself about the market perception of PCGS holdered coins. The market favors PCGS when it comes to classic US coins. That's just my perception. Another thing that I find interesting is that the grading companies guarantee grade and authenticity. With that you are less likely to get a bump because the guarantee will fall to the new company. Prime example and I hated to see these crossed to PCGS was the Newman Confederate half-dollar and the 1854-S half-eagle. They both crossed at the same grade to PCGS. When big money is on the line grading is much more critical and both NGC and PCGS are a lot more careful handing out high grades. 

Edited by gherrmann44

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I was watching Rick Tomaska. I don't buy I watch for numbers. The truth is. In black and white .PCGS  is very liberal with there grading. I could not believe those graded 70 compared to NGC.you want a true grade for your coin NGC. The percentages are unbelievable were not talking thirty more were talking hundreds more. That's why collectors send there coins to P.C.G. S. I was shocked.. The fact that Rick does not point that out is obvious. Just look. I'm sure you will see what a see. They grade higher. I have seen it with so many coins. When I send a coin to N.G.C I don't want the grade questioned later. First it doesn't make sense to argue them. You have the option of sending it in as many times as you like. Sometimes it will change. Most of the the time no. This is only what I have seen. Watch one night and when he holds up a sheet look at P.C.G S. And N.G.C.

 

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On 10/10/2019 at 8:56 AM, gherrmann44 said:

I don't crack anything out anymore. NGC/PCGS it doesn't matter. If I like the coin, it stays in the holder. If I have an incomplete NGC registry set because the holder is not the right one, then so be it. Because after all, is it not more important that I have a complete set of coins than a complete registry set? Yeah, I wish things were the way they were but they are not. So I have adapted and moved on. I do try to buy NGC holdered coins but if I like a PCGS holdered coin and I buy it, it stays in the PCGS holder. That said, I'm glad for PCGS coins still being allowed in custom sets.

There is another problem with crossing PCGS coins over and its financial. I cannot lie to myself about the market perception of PCGS holdered coins. The market favors PCGS when it comes to classic US coins. That's just my perception. Another thing that I find interesting is that the grading companies guarantee grade and authenticity. With that you are less likely to get a bump because the guarantee will fall to the new company. Prime example and I hated to see these crossed to PCGS was the Newman Confederate half-dollar and the 1854-S half-eagle. They both crossed at the same grade to PCGS. When big money is on the line grading is much more critical and both NGC and PCGS are a lot more careful handing out high grades. 

I break stuff out of ANACS and PCGS to send into NGC sometimes.  And, I break out old NGC holders where you can't see any rim, to send back into NGC.  The only reason I break the coins out instead of sending in the slab is because I want to video / photo the coin out of the plastic.  I have nothing anywhere close to MS70, so if something drops from MS62 to MS60, as has happened once from PCGS to NGC, I can handle it.  They tell me they will not honor any kind of guarantee because I broke them out.  Haven't had them drop their own grade down yet. 

 I have had quite a few ANACS hammered world coins grade up at NGC, like AU58 to MS62. 

My USA coins that are in PCGS holders though, I do not plan to break out, because my understanding is that 

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