Mokie's Den

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Mokiechan

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There is a gentlemen doing business in Colorado that makes amazing reproductions of US coins. Even though his copies are exquisite, he gets away with not affixing the word COPY anywhere on his coins because he creates Fantasy pieces.  I own two of his Peace Dollars, one dated 1918 and one dated 1965.  The 1918 is in high relief (like the 1921) but also includes the infamous broken sword that caused so much controversy before the Dollar was released.  The 1965 Dollar is obviously meant as an homage to the fabled 1964 Peace Dollar, but is given a fantasy date so as not to run afoul of the actually minted 1964 version. 

Mr. Daniel Carr, the creator of these pieces, takes pains to overstrike these fantasy pieces on genuine Peace Dollars.  Mr. Carr does this same thing with Morgan Dollars (he has produced a 1964 Morgan) and with a large variety of other US coin types.   I also own his 1858 Braided Hair Large Cent, overstruck on a genuine Large Cent of the era and a club medal struck for the Colorado Springs Numismatic Society, which was overstruck on a 1976 D CN Eisenhower Dollar.  You can even see the outline of Eisenhower on the Obverse, it kind of reminds me of clashed dies.   So bottom line, Mr. Carr is prodigious and his efforts sell well on his website as well as on Ebay.  

I happen to like his products, I am glad he is able to skirt the Copy law, I am assuming, since he only produces fantasy dates, no one can ever be fooled.  What do YOU think?

 

 

 

 

1918 peace obv.png

1918 peace rev.png

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I don't know about "no one can ever be fooled." It makes me think of the coin scam that Jimmy runs in "Better Call Saul." Saying no one could ever be fooled assumes the buyer knows enough about coins to know that genuine coins of that date weren't made. Most people don't and won't and a con artist or someone with no morals or ethics could easily leverage that ignorance.

Nothing against the man or his creations. They sound wonderful. I wouldn't mind owning some for what they are. But there are lots of uninformed people out there and lots of clever con men.

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Well.......you fail to mention that Mr. Carr did create a 1964-D Peace Dollar, which in my opinion is a counterfeit as it is a copy of a coin which actually existed and that was minted by a sovereign government, though examples of that coin were never actually issued for circulation.  That, in my mind, makes him a counterfeiter in at least that one instance, though I am personally strongly against all of what Mr. Carr terms his "fantasy overstrikes".  In this hobby, there are enough fakes around without someone like Mr. Carr appearing on the scene and creating more fakes, which are some of the best and most deceptive fakes I've ever seen, that he is selling as legitimate pieces of exonumia.  He's making the fight against misinformation and counterfeiting that much harder and, by doing so, he is hurting the hobby.  And, should he really be praised for skirting a law which was put in place to protect numismatists in making his fakes?  In my opinion, no, he shouldn't.  In my opinion, Carr's "fantasy overstrikes" should either carry the word Copy in compliance with the Hobby Protection Act or they should be deemed illegal to make.

However, Mr. Carr does have other works which are his original designs.  These are indeed beautiful and they are indeed legitimate, collectible pieces of exonumia.  I do like his original works and I have no issues with them whatsoever as works of art.  However, I will not ever purchase anything from Mr. Carr or made by Mr. Carr until either he stops making his "fantasy overstrikes" or they come into compliance with the Hobby Protection Act by carrying the word copy on them.  I just don't feel right even supporting the original works of someone who I view as a counterfeiter.

I feel I should close by warning that Mr. Carr and his "fantasy overstrikes" are a touchy subject around here.  Be ready for some heated responses.

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Mr. Carr creates some beautiful re-production pieces. As you call it -- "Fantasy Pieces"  I have never owned any of his work nor would II ever invest in a copy of something that is impossible to acquire. I do collect rare --- perfect --- coins but they are U.S. mint originals. ;)

Edited by Six Mile Rick

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It's kinda like buying a knock-off. ^^  :roflmao:  I'll take the heat for that message!! :)

Edited by Six Mile Rick

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8 minutes ago, Six Mile Rick said:

Mr. Carr dose some beautiful re-production pieces. As you call it -- "Fantasy Pieces"  I have never owned any of his work nor would II ever invest in a copy of something that is impossible to acquire. I do collect rare --- perfect --- coins but they are U.S. mint originals. ;)

Originals are the way to go, Rick, for sure.  I like mine, too, but in my case they are RCM, Ottoman Mint, Berlin Mint and Muldenhutten Mint originals.....with many other mints in my Custom Sets....even some US Mint originals!

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15 minutes ago, Six Mile Rick said:

It's kinda like buying a knock-off. ^^  :roflmao:  I'll take the heat for that message!! :)

I think I'm going to be taking some heat for my first reply here as well, my friend.

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14 minutes ago, Mohawk said:

Originals are the way to go, Rick, for sure.  I like mine, too, but in my case they are RCM, Ottoman Mint, Berlin Mint and Muldenhutten Mint originals.....with many other mints in my Custom Sets....even some US Mint originals!

Quite understandable. I don't collect foreign coins as there is so much to keep up with my U.S. collection that the other countries coinage would just cloud my purchasing judgement and leave me stranded. I like to understand completely what I am getting into so that I can make a fair assessment of my addictions (additions). :)  

Edited by Six Mile Rick

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26 minutes ago, Mohawk said:

I just don't feel right even supporting the original works of someone who I view as a counterfeiter.

I don't think I'd ever buy his stuff but I think if a family member bought one of his wares and gave it to me as a gift I'd accept it with a smile.

I'm with you and Rick though - I'd rather it be real. If I'm spending my money on it, it's probably going to be real (unless I'm fooled, which could happen).

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You can fool any FOOL with anything so Mr. Carr's creations are no more concerning, to the integrity of the hobby, than a thousand other fantasy pieces out there.  Has someone bought one of these Carr fantasy pieces thinking they were rare and valuable, maybe.  Is it a widespread and dangerous thing? I think not.  If I show my 1918 Peace Dollar to any numismatist, they would immediately know it was fake and would never think the coin was any kind of rarity. Plus, if the government was all that concerned, they would have put a stop to Mr. Carr a long time ago. 

I must admit that I thought the coins should have COPY stamped on them until I read applicable US Code.   Maybe the Code should have been written more broadly, no one anticipated Mr. Carr finding himself in perfect loophole land. 

I understand your outrage,  I just don't share it. 

 

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Revenant said:

I don't know about "no one can ever be fooled." It makes me think of the coin scam that Jimmy runs in "Better Call Saul." Saying no one could ever be fooled assumes the buyer knows enough about coins to know that genuine coins of that date weren't made. Most people don't and won't and a con artist or someone with no morals or ethics could easily leverage that ignorance.

Nothing against the man or his creations. They sound wonderful. I wouldn't mind owning some for what they are. But there are lots of uninformed people out there and lots of clever con men.

Revenant, You're right, there are people fooled every day by less.  I guess what I am thinking is the particular danger of these coins is the same, or maybe slightly less, than me taking any ordinary circulated 1923 Peace Dollar and selling it to someone for $200.  it happens, but it is no more likely to happen with these than with any  mint issued coin. As PT Barnum said .................................

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1 hour ago, Mohawk said:

Well.......you fail to mention that Mr. Carr did create a 1964-D Peace Dollar, which in my opinion is a counterfeit as it is a copy of a coin which actually existed and that was minted by a sovereign government, though examples of that coin were never actually issued for circulation.  That, in my mind, makes him a counterfeiter in at least that one instance, though I am personally strongly against all of what Mr. Carr terms his "fantasy overstrikes".  In this hobby, there are enough fakes around without someone like Mr. Carr appearing on the scene and creating more fakes, which are some of the best and most deceptive fakes I've ever seen, that he is selling as legitimate pieces of exonumia.  He's making the fight against misinformation and counterfeiting that much harder and, by doing so, he is hurting the hobby.  And, should he really be praised for skirting a law which was put in place to protect numismatists in making his fakes?  In my opinion, no, he shouldn't.  In my opinion, Carr's "fantasy overstrikes" should either carry the word Copy in compliance with the Hobby Protection Act or they should be deemed illegal to make.

However, Mr. Carr does have other works which are his original designs.  These are indeed beautiful and they are indeed legitimate, collectible pieces of exonumia.  I do like his original works and I have no issues with them whatsoever as works of art.  However, I will not ever purchase anything from Mr. Carr or made by Mr. Carr until either he stops making his "fantasy overstrikes" or they come into compliance with the Hobby Protection Act by carrying the word copy on them.  I just don't feel right even supporting the original works of someone who I view as a counterfeiter.

I feel I should close by warning that Mr. Carr and his "fantasy overstrikes" are a touchy subject around here.  Be ready for some heated responses.

Mohawk, Nothing wrong with heated responses and  polar opposite opinions.  I asked so I deserve whatever comes my way.   Oh, and I did not mention his 1964-D because I was unaware he had been that ballsy, I would NOT have supported that at all.  I know he did that 1964 Morgan so it must have been after the Government, or someone, warned him away from great legal trouble.

Edited by dormonteer@gmail.com

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1 hour ago, Six Mile Rick said:

Mr. Carr creates some beautiful re-production pieces. As you call it -- "Fantasy Pieces"  I have never owned any of his work nor would II ever invest in a copy of something that is impossible to acquire. I do collect rare --- perfect --- coins but they are U.S. mint originals. ;)

Six Mile Rick, I fully support your goal of collecting rare-perfect-coins, that is something we all seek to a greater or lesser degree.

Edited by dormonteer@gmail.com

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28 minutes ago, Mokiechan said:

You can fool any FOOL with anything so Mr. Carr's creations are no more concerning, to the integrity of the hobby, than a thousand other fantasy pieces out there.  Has someone bought one of these Carr fantasy pieces thinking they were rare and valuable, maybe.  Is it a widespread and dangerous thing? I think not.  If I show my 1918 Peace Dollar to any numismatist, they would immediately know it was fake and would never think the coin was any kind of rarity. Plus, if the government was all that concerned, they would have put a stop to Mr. Carr a long time ago. 

You make a lot of assumptions that aren't necessarily valid and draw a lot of conclusions with precious little support.

As far as your statement about fools, I'm reminded of a statement by a reformed con artist where-in, if you think you can't be fooled, you're the guy that he (as the con artist) wants to meet, because chances are he can prove you wrong and that confidence is his friend, not yours.

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3 hours ago, Mokiechan said:

Mohawk, Nothing wrong with heated responses and  polar opposite opinions.  I asked so I deserve whatever comes my way.   Oh, and I did not mention his 1964-D because I was unaware he had been that ballsy, I would NOT have supported that at all.  I know he did that 1964 Morgan so it must have been after the Government, or someone, warned him away from great legal trouble.

Mokiechan......I have to say that I am glad that you see how the 1964-D dollar of Carr's IS a problem.  That coin without a copy stamp is dangerous and is certainly a counterfeit.....that is the one issue which causes me the most concern regarding Mr. Carr.  I think Mr. Carr was inspired to do the 1964 Morgan when models or actual dies for a 1964 dated Morgan were found somewhere........that one dances right on the line for me.....as far as we know, no 1964 Morgans were ever struck, but striking such coins was considered by the US Mint to the point where some preliminary preparations were made to undertake such  coinage.

Quote

I must admit that I thought the coins should have COPY stamped on them until I read applicable US Code.   Maybe the Code should have been written more broadly, no one anticipated Mr. Carr finding himself in perfect loophole land. 

I understand your outrage,  I just don't share it. 

And I respect your opinion on the issue as well, but I do think Mr. Carr has drawn attention to a place in applicable US law which needs revision.

Edited by Mohawk

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To everyone......I hope I don't jinx us here, but I think that this may be the single most positive, respectful thread on Daniel Carr that has ever happened here!  Kudos to all involved!

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9 hours ago, Revenant said:

You make a lot of assumptions that aren't necessarily valid and draw a lot of conclusions with precious little support.

As far as your statement about fools, I'm reminded of a statement by a reformed con artist where-in, if you think you can't be fooled, you're the guy that he (as the con artist) wants to meet, because chances are he can prove you wrong and that confidence is his friend, not yours.

Revenant, I Never said that I can't be fooled.  I will say that I am an honest guy and would never take advantage of anyone in any kind of transaction.  The argument has been made, what about after you're gone and those two Dollars and that one Large Cent are in the wild?  I have given that some thought, but I am not sure.  I will tell you if the government ever shuts Mr. Carr down, I would destroy them.  

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The "you" in that case was a general / generic "you," referencing his statement.

You talk about a lot of this from the perspective of an informed numismatist but I think you fail to appreciate that that's probably significantly less than 1% of the population. Those rounds are potentially very dangerous.

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Far less dangerous than the Smithsonian issues that NGC is slabbing.  Those are advertised in nationally distributed magazines, etc.   But I know, dangerous is dangerous even if to a lesser level.  But danger surrounds us, I guess we have to leave this debate behind and concede our respective positions will not change.

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I saw one of Smithsonian $100,000 gold certificates "graded" go at auction for over $800. I believe the price "new" from the seller is around $250. There are folks out there who have more money than sense. But, then again, haven't we all made bad buys in the past? 

 

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5 hours ago, Mokiechan said:

Far less dangerous than the Smithsonian issues that NGC is slabbing.  Those are advertised in nationally distributed magazines, etc.   But I know, dangerous is dangerous even if to a lesser level.  But danger surrounds us, I guess we have to leave this debate behind and concede our respective positions will not change.

I don't know about that statement....remember that Mr. Carr did make a 1964-D Peace Dollar.  I've actually seen one of them in person and those are very dangerous counterfeits.  They absolutely look like what a real 1964-D dollar may have looked like and they could easily fool people.  I'd say that Carr's 1964-D Peace Dollar is far more dangerous than the Smithsonian issues that you mention.

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2 minutes ago, Mohawk said:

I don't know about that statement....remember that Mr. Carr did make a 1964-D Peace Dollar.  I've actually seen one of them in person and those are very dangerous counterfeits.  They absolutely look like what a real 1964-D dollar may have looked like and they could easily fool people.  I'd say that Carr's 1964-D Peace Dollar is far more dangerous than the Smithsonian issues that you mention.

Maybe he is surreptitiously making them and selling them to a hidden group of collectors so they can feel special?   Not me, I don't have any desire or criminal instincts but you bring up an interesting possibility.

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1 hour ago, Mokiechan said:

Maybe he is surreptitiously making them and selling them to a hidden group of collectors so they can feel special?   Not me, I don't have any desire or criminal instincts but you bring up an interesting possibility.

There was actually nothing surreptitious about Daniel Carr's handling of his 1964-D dollars.  He sold them right on his website, just like his other creations and, indeed, seemed proud both that he made it and that he felt that he had a legal loophole in order to prevent marking them with the word Copy, which is a point that could definitely be debated on this particular creation for sure, if not his other "fantasy restrikes"  There was nothing underground about it.  As I understand it, Mr. Carr has production logs on his website.....if you look through them, you may be able to see the 1964-D dollars he made and how scary they actually are.  I'd encourage you to try to get a look at these "coins"......it may change how you feel about Mr. Carr a bit, it may not.  But I think you should have all of the available information on this particular subject, as any numismatist should.  It was actually seeing the 1964-D dollar that made me feel that Mr. Carr was guilty of counterfeiting in at least this one case.

Edited by Mohawk

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16 hours ago, Mohawk said:

There was actually nothing surreptitious about Daniel Carr's handling of his 1964-D dollars.  He sold them right on his website, just like his other creations and, indeed, seemed proud both that he made it and that he felt that he had a legal loophole in order to prevent marking them with the word Copy, which is a point that could definitely be debated on this particular creation for sure, if not his other "fantasy restrikes"  There was nothing underground about it.  As I understand it, Mr. Carr has production logs on his website.....if you look through them, you may be able to see the 1964-D dollars he made and how scary they actually are.  I'd encourage you to try to get a look at these "coins"......it may change how you feel about Mr. Carr a bit, it may not.  But I think you should have all of the available information on this particular subject, as any numismatist should.  It was actually seeing the 1964-D dollar that made me feel that Mr. Carr was guilty of counterfeiting in at least this one case.

Mohawk, From his website:

Current Status:

All production has ended.
All “1964” and “1965” dies have been totally defaced and scrapped.

Total production of “1964” over-strikes (all types & issues combined, prior to die cancellation): 1,964.
50 additional pieces were broad-struck using the cancelled dies on various items.
Items that were destroyed after striking are not included in the mintage totals.

Total production of “1965” over-strikes (all types & issues combined): 523.

___________________________________________________________________

He certainly keeps detailed records as this is just the intro to an exhaustive listing of all his 1964-D production.  As you're well aware, 1964-Ds are an issue that many believe were able to escape the government melting pot. I agree that this issue goes over the line and should have been confiscated and sanctioned.  Mr. Carr must have ice in his veins, if he was able to put these up for open sale. I am really surprised the Secret Service did not descend on him.  Maybe not enough complaints to pique their interest.  Thanks for the info, when you first mentioned they had been made, I assumed he had made them, thought better of it, and did not distribute.  In fact he had a fairly high production compared to his other overstrikes.  Not good!   Mokie

 

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Personally, I like some of these. I understand everyone's concerns. This is a nice place for different views. I wish more people were concerned about the countless counterfeits that are passed as genuine. Mr. Carr has some pretty high prices for his work. Not something someone without some numismatic knowledge would buy. With exceptions. At some point people must take care of themselves. Do your homework. Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

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 Reproduction or Art or whatever you want to call it. Responsible buying let's consider. 

1.  Art has no price boundaries, enjoy friend.

2. Purity/Troy/Currency has calculations.

I love coins enough to get exciting about pretty much all of it but see a financial limitation to everything also. I do not collect Dan Carr Moonlight Mint Art. Specialty area, and remember, the Specialists here know exactly what they are worth. Is there a ceiling to his art creations? I'd imagine. He is more talented at creating medals than I. He lives in a beautiful part of the country. I have never met him. He chimed in on the PCGS Forum one time about heating of metals and stuff...pretty knowledgeable guy. 

Personally, I'd be in Federal or Foreign Issued. That's just me. Some can make a living enjoying what they create, I'm sure he does. 

Remember, more Drama one can hype about a 1964 peace replica whatever it is...the more they can sell....Posts like this fuel the curious mind....I would hold on to your Cash,Check, however you pay...tightly.....JMO...

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