Franklin's Press Token

1 1
MIKE BYRNE

446 views

 . 

Hi my fellow collectors . A while ago I won an auction of a token I thought I would never own. It's called Franklin's Press. The press is in the Smithsonian Institute.. When he was eighteen years old he went to Great Britain in search of work. Well he found it printing. Now there is discrepancy about this token. It's in the Red Book book and"The Provincial Tokens -Coinage of The 18th Century. By R Dalton and D.S.Hamer" those are the D& H number you see on every token but this one doesn't have it. It was made in Middlesex England and is on page 130. It should say 307a. 

Now this token made it to the Americas. That's why it's in the Red Book. As post colonial America. Not only that is called unique. Why well because they had some.with edge writing and some without.. However no matter what grade the price on both is the same. The one I will be putting up is an A/U 58. Now you would think there would be alot more in a better grade. Only sixty one in a higher grade. So if I'm right and my research says I am that's were this token was made but you will not see it with the proper label. Now it was a while ago so I don't remember how much I paid at the auction. I have seen them for a couple of hundred or a couple of thousand. Either way just to see one it's one of those I have to win this. I knew about it and even to this day I do not understand the label  in the slab I have have a book that pre-dates the red book by a couple hundred years. If they use the book or Adkins they will see it's not an  American token. I have been down this road before  I  will go down this road agan. 

I don't know what book they got there information from but I intend to find out and see if we can settle this like colectors. The reason it's not up now is because it gives three discriptions. Therefore with the conflicting evidence I promise I will have it posted. Face it this token is being held onto by sentimental collectors who own it. I would love to see the other labels. So there you have it. I wish I could post it but NGC is working on that. Thanks for the quick read but a very important one. Every coin and token come from a certain country. Let's get this tokens home right. I have an update I checked the N G C verification code. There are only 61 higher than this grade. The label reads as follows 1794 Plain Edge Token A/U 58. Nothing to do on were it was made. If I didn't know better they used the Red Book. Only. If they check my book and others it would say Franklin Press Middlesex Great Britain D&H 307a. That's the proper label. Not something that tells.absolutely nothing. That's just not right Mike.

Well I have an update in was able for you you to see it but not change where it was made. I did get Middlesex in with the D&H number 307a. So at least you know we're it was made. It never circulated in the U.S. And according to NGC verification app there are only 61 in a higher grade. So I have work a head. Thanks for your patience at least it's up. Mike

Hi this is an update. I just put up another token. For two reasons one it's beautiful. Two it was graded by P.C.G.S now over at the ANA I have stated  not  send your tokens there. This is a perfect example. At NGC they start the edge writing on the label. If you don't have a book before you send it write it down. At PCGS they don't even mention if there is edge writing. Edge writing tells you were to redeem it. It can also determine rarity. It's very important so please if you collect Conders send them to N.G.C. You deserve the best. Mike

 

Update.I received my corrections back. That is one. They did not correct the Franklin Press. This mistake was made by the first person to grade one and has continued to this day. It is not a colonial. A post or pre colonial it's ENGLISH!!  I have sent NGC all the proof they need to correct an historical mistake of great proportions. Franklin moved to England at 18. He went in search of printing materials. He got a job and the owner a Mr. Watts saw a chance to make money on his name. So it's believed he had he tokens made. I have them the reference book which has all the information. We're it was made. The important D&H number the year. They made two one with edge writing one without. It should read G. Britain Middlesex D&H 307b Franklin Press.AU/ 58. The label the have had nothing just Franklin Press.why someone didn't do there homework beyond me. It's Franklin it has to be made here. Q. David Bowers said it it never circulated here. But it's in the red book . Another mistake it doesn't belong there it's a world token. Not from America. History has to be right. Nothing about this is right. It's sad.. Give the token it's respect. A name of were it was made a number you can refrance. I was supposed to get a call back. Didn't happen. I know why. They now know the truth and do not know what to do. I do correct them and  contact every owner and correct history. Take it out of the Red Book. It was not a circulating token those that made it here were collected. So NGC what else do you need. I will gladly supply it. But you have a chance to correct a great injustice. As we say here just do it. You have the proof. I even wanted to send a email of the page and book. Please contact me. Before you do check the red book page 137 and 138 it also states it's a Conder token. It has Bowers comment it did not circulate in the U.S. It tells you were it was made.in ENGLAND IN 1794. Why else do you need. That's the deluxe red book I buy it because it has more information.. Then after you check both books call me please. That's all I ask. Mike.

 

 

Just want to let Every one that I am giving up. This was never personal just simple bussiness. I contacted Mr Q. David Bowers and told him to drop it. Friendship is not worth the change of a labe. Just two people trying to fix something that was broken. I asked a friend if he went to a show and there was a conder salesman there to ask for the the Franklin Press the salesman said.307a  from Middlesex. He said the Franklin press. I was happy. It's over as far as I'm concerned. Everyone made good points. I even made a suggestion that would generate more funds for NGC. We know no one trust anyone  for grading them. So I said to get the collectors in put the info on the label like you do now do not grade it put  genuine. Charge 15.00 for slabing the token since there by passing the grade it can clear up the wait time and get thousands to use there service who never would before. Strictly for protection. I hope they use it I think it would work. Take care everyone Mike.

1 1


17 Comments


Recommended Comments

My RedBook does not call these American tokens. It says they are "English tradesman's tokens of the kind collected by English numismatists..." Quote: " The Franklin Press tokens did not circulate as money in America, but, being associated with a London shop where Benjamin Franklin once worked, they have long been included in American coin collections." Bowers also states that they were struck in England, and Breen attributed them to Lutwych's mint in Birmingham, England. (Breen did not always get things right, rhough.)

I am looking forward to seeing pictures of your token.

Edited by Just Bob

Share this comment


Link to comment

High Just Bob. I respect what Mr. Bowers said and thank you for the reserch. But Benjamin Franklin not only worked there he lived there. The Token was made in Britain the book I quoted from is just that tokens and coinage of the 18th century Britain. Now they have all the information so there is no doubt. Now they did make tokens of some famous Americans. But they have the town Middlesex. It's not the only reference book. This is what's given me the problem of putting it up. They list three options but it starts with the U.S. And will not allow me to put through the location of the D&H number which it has. I listed the page number and it's assigned number. So to me as a Conder collector this token came from one place it was ordered by Follower. So to any Conder collector it is and always be a British token. Like i said last time it took me three months to get a token of Queen Victoria done  Look how long that! took This should take twenty minutes. When I first saw it for sale by a major company it was listed as British Token. So they got it right. It's because it's in the Red book I'm having this problem. I bet if I went the Woods Hibernia in the same problem. Made in England for Ireland they refused them and went them to the U.S. It's in the Red Book but has nothing to do with us. What you said and what's in the book is right. Try and get it posted as a British token. It just will not work. I thank you for your response but like I said they have done it before. I don't know why.But it's in there hands now. It will be curious as to what they say. That's why I have the the name of the book and page. Thanks for your response I appreciate it very muxh. The label has no reference to Britain figure that out. Thanks Mike. I have an update I did get the picture up and now.you will see there error. I did get Middlesex in there and the D&H number 307a  so I have made some headway. It's in all the the Conder books. I can't figure how they made that mistake. Patients were half way there. Mike

How come you won't talk to Me Q David Bowers and the other authors of the book. With cooperation we get things done. Believe they can explain why in five minutes that's all I'm asking. I m going in for surgery today. Look there has been a mistake. These men know these tokens and are willing to help send me an email next week I will give you his. Thanks for your help Mike

Edited by MIKE BYRNE

Share this comment


Link to comment

Great job Mike. NGC has a bit to learn about these Conder Tokens. Thanks for the hint about the edge writing. Good luck on your quest.

Share this comment


Link to comment

Well these are two reasons Conder Token collectors don't trust third party grading. I have had famous Handel reverses out with the reverse as the obverse. Then you have the Franklin Press that label makes no sense and P.C.G.S.no edge writing it can mean a couple of hundred or thousand dollars why bothere. Now I hope you understand I just took these two out because there famous not even meaning to bring up a discussion like this. But there they are for everyone to see. Mike 

Share this comment


Link to comment

Thanks for putting up the pictures.The Franklin Press is a nice one, in really great shape,  and the Kempson piece is a real beauty. (thumbsu

Share this comment


Link to comment

Thank you very much. There is so much history about this token it's unbelivable. Benjamin Franklin came to G .Britain to purchase products for a press. The owner said I can make money using his name . So the token was born. It looks identical to the one in the Smithsonian institution. If you read about how he got there and became stranded there for a year and a half it worth reading about. Thanks for the compliment on P.Kempson. I was told by the auction house that the particular token went up £ 600 pounds in one night because it was in his collection. But unless I can see it with my eyes I can't really say yes it was. Have a great day and thanks. Mike

Share this comment


Link to comment

Hey Mike, fancy meeting you here.  Love to hear about your tokens, you are truly a font of knowledge.  Later Mokie

Share this comment


Link to comment

Learned it the old  fashion way books. And reserch. Once I got into them I enjoyed them. I was just looking at one I might put up. Started in 1050 A.D. Now.it's still standing better and sronger. How can you not catch your interest. It gets mine. Take care Mike. And Thanks.

Edited by MIKE BYRNE

Share this comment


Link to comment

As I write this my token should be back this week. I'm very excited to see it. I supplied the correct information and book and page it was on. This will be a rare one with the right information. Not even P.S.C.G.has the correct version.  So I should have it by the 13th of May I will post it with The other one. Thanks NGC for understanding. And your great cooperation. P.C.G.S.  sometimes circles the edge lettering. That could me hundreds if not thousands. That's why I stopped sending my tokens there and coins. Thanks everyone. Mike.

 

 

 

 

Share this comment


Link to comment
On 2/24/2019 at 7:53 PM, Just Bob said:

My RedBook does not call these American tokens. It says they are "English tradesman's tokens of the kind collected by English numismatists..." Quote: " The Franklin Press tokens did not circulate as money in America, but, being associated with a London shop where Benjamin Franklin once worked, they have long been included in American coin collections." Bowers also states that they were struck in England, and Breen attributed them to Lutwych's mint in Birmingham, England. (Breen did not always get things right, rhough.)

I am looking forward to seeing pictures of your token.

That's were the mistake started. They used The red book not The book Conder collectors use and NGC. It doesn't belong in the red book. It was collected here never used for money never circulated that's from Q.David Bowers. So why is it there. I have no idea I think they needed to fill space. It has none of the information we need to reference it. Read my updates maybe you will get a better idea how important Chris information is. The red book doesn't even say we're in England jigsaw made of who commissioned it. Why it was made. Th e difference in rarity. The one with edge writing is worth thousands.. But The red book does not tell you that. So I went to the net. One dealer has it made in Philadelphia. This is why it has to be removed. By the way Matthew Boulton ran the Birmingham mint not Lutywchs he worked there as a die sinker. Thanks Mike

 

 

Edited by MIKE BYRNE

Share this comment


Link to comment
On 2/27/2019 at 11:58 AM, Just Bob said:

Thanks for putting up the pictures.The Franklin Press is a nice one, in really great shape,  and the Kempson piece is a real beauty. (thumbsu

If you go to Washington the original press he used is in the Smithsonian Institute. Thanks. Mike

Share this comment


Link to comment

Thanks for all the updates Mike. I looked it up in my copy of the English book. It's right where you said and the D&H number you stated. Get it right NGC. Facts are facts. just because it's been mis-labeled for years, doesn't mean it can't be corrected now. Good luck on your quest..

Share this comment


Link to comment

I don't want to change grading standards.face it every company in the United States makes a mistake. All I want is were it was made and the reference number. Because it's in the red book doesn't make this label right. It doesn't belong in the red book. This is a collectors item. Not coinage never used as such. So through out all the right books and include every token that made it to the U.S. Put one in our all of them all in. It's a collectors item nothing else like every other Conder token. We will end this so everyone comes out with resoect.  Thanks Mike

Share this comment


Link to comment

The reason allot of people do not collect these are very easy. First they have no idea of the value. Forty dollars for circulated ones hundreds and into the tens of thousands for some some two thousand and one thousand . Second Americans want value they don't see it they don't buy it. Three the workmanship is superb for there and some.look like the came off the die. Third we don't believe in slabing. The ones I have slabed are for one reason so they will keep there color and I want these slabed for protection. If NGC didn't put a grade on it they would make a fortune. The ones I collect came from professional collectors. Yes they had them back there. Some.have not seen the light of day in a hundred years when they pass the families sold them to auction houses into the vault they went. That's why I like them. Mike

 

Share this comment


Link to comment

I say drop it . Friendship is more important than a label. I contacted Mr. Bowers and told him to drop the issue.. It's a shame when a label can interfere with friends. That showing happen it should never happen it's business not personal.  I noticed a mistake and bright it to there attention.. They don't want to carry on any discussion that's fine with me. I thought I was doing the right thing. Just trying to right a wrong. That's all. So I can hold my head up for trying. Sometimes you just can't discuss with city hall. Thanks everyone for there support. But this issue is closed. I hope the other door opens again. Mike.

 

 

 

Edited by MIKE BYRNE

Share this comment


Link to comment

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now