WYNTK-----Scratches
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17 posts in this topic

999 posts

Hello Folks---

 

Want to thank everyone for their responses to last week's WYNTK thread.

 

I'd like to try to further the discussion on scratches. Let me say that I am not surprised at our board members' feelings concerning their wishes for "explanations" as to why a coin or coins are BB by a TPGS. I can only say, as another prominent person here would say, that we are paying NGC for an evaluation and opinion of our coins---not for an education about them. That education, my friends, is left to US and not the TPGS.

 

While I agree that NGC could have saved me one heck of a lot of grief concerning my 21D Walker, the fact remains that I am a much better collector because I was "forced" to learn for myself, and, in that learning, I doubt that I will ever forget that education. The loss of my grading fees were, IMHO, worth the knowledge that I ultimately obtained, even though it took me almost 2 years to figure it out.

 

Now let's look at a nice 1919 Walker. One that NGC did grade. NGC graded it a VF-35.

 

1919VF35.jpg

 

1919VF35Rev.jpg

 

I had some hope of an XF40. Can you see anything wrong with this coin from my picture? But there are two old faint scratches on the obverse. One goes from the top of the D of God to the R of Liberty. The other crosses the first one below the T of Liberty. Can you see them from this image?

 

1919Field.jpg

 

How about now?

 

1919Field2.jpg

 

I bought this coin raw off eBay and naturally there was no mention of the scratches. But since I only paid a VF price for the coin, I figured if it did slab, I was OK.

 

IMO, NGC let the coin stay as a VF35 because of those two faint old scratches. The coin was a 'liner' anyway----so the two scratches kept it at the lower grade. In the case of my 21D, they decided to BB it because there were "several" slight faint horizontal scratches. It was a matter of degree. The 21D just had too many, while the 1919 did not. Therefore, one got slabbed while the other did not. Also, the 21D hairline scratches could have been looked at as 'slide scratches' or an old 'wiping'. While the two scratches on the 1919 coin were definitely not related to anything resembling anything other than 'just scratches'.

 

My friends, I call the coin business "The Giant Game". The key to it is our knowledge. If you want to play, the stakes are whatever you want to make them. You can collect pocket change with NO risk, or you can gamble with multiple thousands. The choice is yours. Just remember what my grandfather once told me, "Don't bet a man at his own game." If you want to risk your hard-earned money, please make sure you have the knowledge required to "play the game".

 

In my own personal case, I never bid unless I know that I can resell at whatever I have in the coin. You must sell every once in a while to make sure that your current approach is still correct. If you can grade properly, you can easily cover a few mistakes along the way, but don't expect NGC or anyone else to educate you. They give a guarantee of authentication and a grading opinion. You must go to school for the education and to gain the experience.

 

So, what have I learned in these two WYNTK posts?

 

1---- You just can NEVER trust these pictures. Notice how that has been first on both my lists.

 

2---- Scratches are different. NGC will slab some coins with scratches. But not ALL coins with scratches. Each coin has to be looked at ---on its own merits. It is afterall a judgement call. The coin must stand or fall by itself. I DO NOT think there can be just one specific RULE on scratches.

 

3--- NGC or any TPGS may downgrade a coin---but still slab it---depending on how they feel about the coin's problems. This opinion is SUBJECTIVE.

 

4----It is up to us to learn how NGC or any other TPGS thinks. Believe me. I wish that they would make it easier on us too. But, if you want to be a Numismatist, you MUST put in the time----and the grief. Nothing good in this life ever comes without a little sweat. If it is worthwhile, you MUST put forth the effort.

 

5---- I have felt the "ANGST" that I saw in the replies from you folks about BB. For I got nothing when I first was rejected at the Baltimore Show about the 21D. No explanation whatsoever. If, when the folks at NGC read these posts, maybe they might think about just saying---- "horizontal hairlines on Obverse". The GOOD WILL of just those four words would have meant an awful lot to me. I think a lot of folks would be a lot less stressed over the BB----if they knew where to look for the problems that NGC or any TPGS has found.

 

6---- I will stand as a friend to NGC. While I will 'always' tell the truth as I know it to be----so far---at least IMHO----NGC stands above the rest. Can they do better? Surely they can. But, this collector has come to realize that those guys do pretty good when you think that they only have a few seconds to look at each coin.

 

That is enough for this post. Next week will probably be a post on high grade MS cleaning. Till then. Bob [supertooth]

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I laud your assessment about a circulated coins historical features as it goes to grade. We can all benefit from a learned person’s perspective, one who has experienced first hand the ins and outs of what to see and look for on a coin‘s surfaces. Every coin paints a picture for us to evaluate prior to a submission and then well after that surprised rejection return. When one does pass the mustard, jubbilation and joy prevail.

 

Thanks Supertooth, (Bob) splendid information.

 

Handsome Walker Bob.

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Another informative and definitely worthwhile posting Bob. What you describe is so true, it came into play for myself yesterday while studying a Morgan. Although my experience level is minimal compared to many, I pondered over a small patch of randomly positioned scratches in the field of this coin for many minutes under various lighting conditions. My conclusion, was that they were not the result of an intentional or light "wipe" but instead they were truly scratches from contact with something at some point. It is not a coin I would try to slab but as you describe above, I think it would slab. It is all a learning experience and that is part of the fun.

 

Thanks Bob,

 

Rey

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Nice post.

 

It definitely takes time to get a feel for what the grading services will BB and what they will informally net grade. The scratches on the 1919 don't really bother me, as I do not expect perfect surfaces on a circulated coin. But if it's a liner coin, a lower surface quality will lead to a downgrade.

 

I don't have a problem at all with that coin in a VF-35 holder.

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Nice post.

 

It definitely takes time to get a feel for what the grading services will BB and what they will informally net grade. The scratches on the 1919 don't really bother me, as I do not expect perfect surfaces on a circulated coin. But if it's a liner coin, a lower surface quality will lead to a downgrade.

 

I don't have a problem at all with that coin in a VF-35 holder.

 

i agree the scratces werent noticabel enought to deduct from the grade in my opinion. i like the look of the walker smile.gif

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Man oh man Bob Supertooth that is great information and you are to be commended for sharing your wealth of knowledge. Behalf of everyone on the Forum, I Thank You.

It's knowledge like this that certainly makes you a great assett to this great Hobby. 893applaud-thumb.gifthumbsup2.gif

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Nice post Bob. Thanks for taking the time thumbsup2.gif

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Absolutely a great post. I thank you for your time and logical presentation. I would have to agree with all you say-especially the following:

 

5---- I have felt the "ANGST" that I saw in the replies from you folks about BB. For I got nothing when I first was rejected at the Baltimore Show about the 21D. No explanation whatsoever. If, when the folks at NGC read these posts, maybe they might think about just saying---- "horizontal hairlines on Obverse". The GOOD WILL of just those four words would have meant an awful lot to me. I think a lot of folks would be a lot less stressed over the BB----if they knew where to look for the problems that NGC or any TPGS has found.

 

 

All of my posts in regards to BBing come down to this-there are no reasonable explanations for the lack "of just those four words". I do not wish for a free education, but I feel that I paid for those 4 words and have never gotten them. Absolutely, my only complaint.

 

Thanks again Bob for your outstanding post! thumbsup2.gif

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Thanks for the updated informative post Bob. I know people don't pay for an eduacation from tpg's, but sometimes just a bit more information for the price paid is still a popular request I'm sure. thumbsup2.gif

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Great thread and a nice Walking Liberty half! Those fine scratches aren't bad at all at this grade level.

 

In general, I think all the services need to stop net grading for some problems and not for others (again, your coin does not apply here). It can be very disappointing to buy a great looking coin on-line only to be disappointed by problems that should have caused a body-bag. In a recent auction, I bought a scarce Bust 25C from a major coin dealer's site graded NGC F-12. The coin looked like an easy VF20 and the description stated "choice original" so it was shaping up to be the perfect addition to my collection. I opened it up and within 1 second, it was clear that the coin was HARSHLY scrubbed, with bright shinny surfaces and tons of heavy, parallel hairlines all over. A rich patina had since begun to mildly tone down the harshness; and, barring any other serious problems, NGC compensated by grading this cleaned VF20 a F-12, problem free. It was immediately returned and it cost me over $20 round trip in shipping. I've had this issue with scratched coins too at all grading services.

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great thread. Perhaps the TPGs simply don't want us to know. Lessens the potential for argument. Another thing is that 'we' (generic), put up with it.

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I've sent stuff back for downgrade many a time! I have aquired coins that I absolutely could not put up for sale at the certified grade...I refused. One time I sent 14 coins in for Appearacen Review at one time! NGC is very good with their guarrantee. I can't speak for PCGS in this regard.

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OK, fine. I read this thread before others after a bit of an absense. Anyway this subject touches on a sore point for me. The following coin is graded 63 by NGC and PCGS refused a cross. To me the coin is 64+ with staple scratches. So maybe it is net graded?

 

1853-arrows-dime-ms63-r.jpg

 

You can see the scratch under the M in DIME. The obverse has a matching scratch.

 

1853-arrows-dime-ms63-o.jpg

 

Sigh. Thanks for GMargulis for re-submitting this coin the NGC for me. NGC said Gem with scratch so it stays in this holder. Anyway nobody has wanted to purchase this coin ever since...

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good thread and it is extremely subjective to who you blindly trust to grade your coins/make them market acceptable and what side of the buying or selling table you are on

 

also the current flavor of new gimmicks in coins and if all the lemmings are following as majority rules and currently with high grade registry ga-ga grade coins this is the current market

 

tomorrow something else

 

maybe coin collecting 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

a novel idea cloud9.gif

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looking back at this after just viewing an au55 bust half with 'scratches' that appear quite similar, in fact, it seems like these kinds of scratches even appear on ms busties (lower 'ms') so I'm kind of thinking like they are really minor (or at least what appears in your photos). Am I wrong?

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Yes, if NGC gave an explanation for every action their services would cost more so I guess that explains it. I too think like you on circulated coins in the VF and F ranges in that a faint scratch is to be expected as they are CICULATED and that is what CICULATED is all about. Just not too blatant scratches and if so don't buy em.

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