New Registry Scores
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If you have specific examples, it was suggested that you put them on the "Look At This" thread of Arch's, and then show the current scores, and how they can be improved.

 

When I was looking at the Type stuff, I found current E-Bay auctions of coins, NGC where available, or PCGS if NGC wasn't available, and linked to final prices that demonstrated that the coins in question had value above or below the current scores.

 

As to whether the scores inside the Kennedy series make sense, I couldn't tell you. I haven't looked at the scores in that light. Your initial post seemed to indicate concern with scoring at a global level, not at an individual coin level

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I was reacting to the sets in a global sense. The Type Set scores reflect the global relationship of these particular coins. I was mistaken in my thinking that there was some global relationship between the various sets. Now it is apparent that there is not. I am at this point, not as concerned about value within sets.

 

We were told that the sets scores were losely based on value. This would indicate a global relationship between sets. I was working on the premise that there is a relationship between sets. David is indicating that there is not. tongue.gif

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We were told that the sets scores were losely based on value.

 

Who said that? I heard that they were specifically NOT based on value. If they are even remotely supposed to be related to value, then the Franklin Proofs are even further out of whack than I thought.

 

Phil

 

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That was my point but apparently they are not based on value and are not even related in scoring to other sets. This fact surprises me. That was my soapbox last night. I had assumed (which is always a mistake) that all sets had some basic monetary correlation to one-another, low though it may be. This apparently is not the case. tongue.gif

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It took me a year to finish my Kennedy Proof set. The set is primarily PR69DCAM coins that have essentially no population above these coin's grades.

 

If someone who does not collect these coins, has told you that collecting these coins is a "fish shoot in a barrel", they obviously have not tried to find these coins (in PR69DCAM) in competition with all the others who collect these sets.

 

1) This is not a hard set to put together. 98% of the coins are easy. The only hard coin is the 71-S. The 64 is somewhat tough, but they are out there.

2) The fact that few have been graded higher is due to political reasons, not numismatic reasons.

3) Sorry, but they are easy to find. With the exception of the 71-S and 64 I could probably put together several sets a week.

 

 

Forty-nine points for a MS65FBL Franklin is a joke!

 

I don't know what an average, common, $25 coin gets in terms of points, but that is what this coin is.

 

 

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I don't know what an average, common, $25 coin gets in terms of points, but that is what this coin is.

 

No it isn't. You may find one occasionally but a MS65 FBL Franklin half slabbed by NGC or PCGS will generally run you well over 25 bucks.

 

Phil

 

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Don't feel bad, my BTW only got three points. . . ooo.gif

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So.... maybe I am really missing the point here, but I still do not understand all the turmoil over this?? tongue.gif

 

What did folks worry about when we were all collecting coins BR (before registry)? grin.gif

 

Bill

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A quick search of eBay or TeleTrash will show you that common PCGS/NGC MS65FBL Franklins can be had in the $25-$30 range.

 

Dozens are available for under $50.

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Prices from Ebay and Teletrade are simply not a good source of pricing information. The coins on those sights that sell real cheap are being overlooked. When properly marketed, Franklin halves sell for alot more than $25 in 65FBL and $75 in 66FBL. Check out the inventory at Heritage for more information. An MS66FBL is at least $125+, and Heritage has very competative pricing! I have been buying coins from them for a long time. David Lawrence sells a 66FBL for $175+.

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OldTrader did not mention which year or mint mark he was referring to. My point was that most years and mintmarks run well over 25 bucks. look at This and you will see that they can run into hundreds of dollars. You claimed that the coin he was referring to was a 25 dollar coin, there is no way you could know that from his post. In fact the odds are it is NOT a 25 dollar coin.

 

Phil

 

 

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Greg:

You have come out and said some things that are not valid and you certainly can not prove. Are you the one who has been spreading this Bull around? I also would like to know what your credentials are to make these inflamatory remarks that simply are not true.

 

1. Have you ever built a Kennedy Proof set with PR69UCAM coins from 1964 to 1971 & PR69DCAM coins for the rest? If not, you are blowing in the wind. Or with CAM-SMS coins? I doubt it because the total population of CAM-SMS Kennedy's is very small. When I started this set, the Registries were in their infancy. Plus, there were many fewer PR69UCAM's than there are now. However, that is not an excuse. It still is a long undertaking.

2. Have you built a Kennedy Proof set? If not, I would suggest that you go out and build a set before you step on someone else's efforts. Then maybe you will know what you are talking about.

3. Regarding Franklin's, I can not find one for sale in MS65FBL for less than $98.00 at several dealers I checked. Have you ever built a Franklin set? If you wish to try and find some PCGS/NGC MS65FBL Franklin's at $25.00, I will buy them from you all day long!

 

I await your reply with substative data to back up your comments, not more innuendo! Let me know when you have data that I can substantiate! tongue.gif

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Prices from Ebay and Teletrade are simply not a good source of pricing information.

 

Why? It's a legitimate transaction between a buyer and a seller.

 

. Check out the inventory at Heritage for more information. An MS66FBL is at least $125+, and Heritage has very competative pricing! I have been buying coins from them for a long time. David Lawrence sells a 66FBL for $175+.

 

I recently bought a 66FBL from Heritage for $85. I bought a rainbow-toned PQ piece of the same date and same grade from Rick Tomaska for $185. So, a PQ example might run ya more, but the generic pricing stands.

 

Should a Registry point system cater scores to the PQ coins, where subtle nuances can reflect large changes in price, or to the generic coins, which are slabbed by the services and readily available.

 

Now, try selling those Franklins back to Heritage. You'll be lucky to be offered 50% in an outright sale.

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CDR,

 

Greg has actually made many Kennedy's in 69DC across the street in the time frame you reference. A search of his posts there can reveal the statistics.

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Keith: I do not doubt that he has, however, has he made a complete set in a week. That was his challenge. tongue.gif

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CDR,

 

I know of at least 2 dealers who could FedEx me at least 90% of the entire set in 69DCAM with a phone call. The other pieces could be picked up with a few key phone calls by the end of the week.

 

That's why I don't collect modern proofs. There is little challenge to them if you don't make them yourself, and with enough money, almost anyone can have a competitive set.

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Maybe we are comparing rocks to apples. I built this set BR (before Registry) when there were not many PR69UCAM coins on EBay. In fact, all that I could find and buy then were mostly PR66/67DCAM. Which I bought some of and recently sold them.

 

Secondly, because of limited resources (I was building my Peace Dollar set at the same time) , I bought the coins serially instead of all at once. These factors are why it took me so long to finish the set. tongue.gif Also, I do not pay much attention to Teletrash. I buy most of my coins from dealers.

Edited by Oldtrader3

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I think we're talking apples and apple sauce here.

ANY old 69DCAM may be had quickly, but find them all spotless and without haze with true, deep, black and white surfaces are a bit tougher. A well matched set, including all the early dates, would be a challenge.

With that said though I think the weights- being equal for all who participate, seems fair.

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Greg:

You have come out and said some things that are not valid and you certainly can not prove. Are you the one who has been spreading this Bull around? I also would like to know what your credentials are to make these inflamatory remarks that simply are not true.

 

Not true? My facts are listed below. My credentials? Well, a person needs only the ability to search eBay & TeleTrash to get an idea of what these coins are selling for and how rare they are. You could also look in the pop reports to see their "rarity". However, I've made, bought, and sold many top Kennedys over the years. My last batch of Kennedys I submitted (1968-S & 1969-S) graded as (4) PR68DCAM & (12) PR69DCAM at PCGS. I made a 1971-D in PCGS MS68 (pop 2 thanks to mine). I've made several of the mint state silvers (not SMS) in MS66 & MS67. Kennedys were the first coin I became actively interested in (buying and selling). That would have been right around the time PCGS started in business.

 

 

1. Have you ever built a Kennedy Proof set with PR69UCAM coins from 1964 to 1971 & PR69DCAM coins for the rest? If not, you are blowing in the wind.

 

I find this statement to be highly ignorant. Just because I didn't put together a set doesn't mean I know nothing about them. I've probably made, bought, and sold more PR69 Kennedys than you have. If I wanted a set I would put one together.

 

 

2. Have you built a Kennedy Proof set? If not, I would suggest that you go out and build a set before you step on someone else's efforts. Then maybe you will know what you are talking about.

 

I know exactly what I am talking about. I know that I could probably find every coin except the 64 & 71-S in PR69DCAM on eBay/TeleTrash in any given week. I know that I could quite probably put together a full set in a day if I did enough searching and I didn't care about price.

 

 

3. Regarding Franklin's, I can not find one for sale in MS65FBL for less than $98.00 at several dealers I checked. Have you ever built a Franklin set? If you wish to try and find some PCGS/NGC MS65FBL Franklin's at $25.00, I will buy them from you all day long!

 

Better yet, let me sell you some Franklins for $75 (a 25% discount to your usual price!!!!!). Deal?

 

$28.05

$30.55

$36.08

$30.

$33.

$33.

$36.

$36.

$36.

$33.

$30.

$33.

$30.

$30.

$27.

$21.

$27.

$27.

 

I await your reply with substative data to back up your comments, not more innuendo! Let me know when you have data that I can substantiate! tongue.gif

 

There are some data for you to look over. tongue.gif

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The challenge for Franklins was $25 Greg. Are you up to it? If you have some deep seated problem with me, I would suggest that we go private. You are still angry and I think that this is a waste of my time and energy. I really do not have any bones to pick with you. Is there some payback for you to badger and insult me? If not BACK OFF!! tongue.gif

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The reason I do not believe Ebay and Teletrade to be good sources of pricing info is because they just aren't. With Ebay in particular, if you were to add up all the MS65FBL's that sell, you would probable end up with a very low average. The reason for this is because not every coin gets the same attention. Sometimes I list a coin 5 times for (lets say $40) and get no bids. Then on the sixth time, it sells for $80 or something like that. A listing like this is being overlooked for 5 weeks in a row. Furthermore, this is especially true for those coins that do not have pictures. I don't click on auctions that don't have pictures! But such coins often sell (but usually very low).

 

The mentioning of pictures brings us to Teletrade, which always has very few pictures. The coins are being purchased sight unseen and bids are generally much lower for sight unseen coins. I have heard people refer to Teletrade as "a dumping ground for over-graded junk." Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule.

 

Was the MS66FBL you purchased from Heritage sold on their inventory or through auction? I was refering to their inventory in my last message.

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I bought the Heritage piece from inventory.

 

You can't discount certain auction venues for coins. If they are solid coins for the grade, someone would step in, buy them, and make a killing selling them someplace else. The pieces are still 65 and 66FBL coins graded by NGC and PCGS. Since we are talking scoring based on those services grading, then you have to include all examples, and dozens of sales indicates a trend.

 

And you can't claim that Heritage and major houses are superior, because oftentimes, coins sit in their auctions for months. I watched a MS-65 Barber dime go through 3 national auctions, 2 E-Bay listings, and several weeks of Internet auctions before I Made An Offer purchased it. Twas a nice piece, graded properly, and I got it for 80% of Greysheet.

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He posted one

 

Uh huh, ONE. The problem I am guessing OT had was that Greg ASSUMED that the coin he was referring to was a $25 coin. OT did not specify which coin he was referring to. A 1957-D FBL Franklin MS65 earns 49 points, find one of those for anything even approaching $25. I believe this is the coin OT was referring to.

 

Phil

 

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You are absolutely right, but what I am saying is that coins in auctions are sometimes completely overlooked, and if only one person looks at a $1 auction and bids, the coin will sell for $1. This occurence will render the auction stats as unreliable. Therefore, it's very hard for me to say that that reflects a trend.

 

I don't favor any one particular auction, by the way. I was responding to the info that was put forth regarding two particular venues. My argument applies to all auctions. I mentioned the inventories of Heritage and David Lawrence as examples of what some of the coins in question are being sold for. Many people are willing to pay those prices, but of course they won't pay them if they don't have to in an auction.

 

When people get cheap deals, they sell them for a lot more, as you said. That means the deal is worth what you sold it for, not what you payed for it. You got a cheap deal because it was overlooked buy everyone else. Then you sell that deal for what it's really worth. A good example to illustrate my point is the MS66FBL that can occasionally be had in auction or inventory (afterall Heritage specializes in fast inventory turnover) for $85. Those coins are worth more money than that, and when they sell for that price you got a great deal. And remember, all I am trying to say is that the coins are worth more than $25 in MS65FBL and $85 in MS66FBL. That brings me (finally!) back to the original topic of this discussion. The coins are worth more points than they are being given. That's all I am trying to defend here.

 

 

 

 

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The challenge for Franklins was $25 Greg. Are you up to it?

 

One of the ones I posted was $21. Several were $27. There were many others, but I got tired of listing them. Did you expect me to peg the coins down to an exact cent? $25 is close enough, unless you're trying to be an extreme anal jerk.

 

 

If you have some deep seated problem with me, I would suggest that we go private. You are still angry and I think that this is a waste of my time and energy. I really do not have any bones to pick with you. Is there some payback for you to badger and insult me? If not BACK OFF!!

 

You're funny. I point out that your coins aren't super expensive rarities and you get pissed. Big deal. Live and learn. Stop getting so hissy when you are shown something that you didn't know. What is your problem? You frequently get like this, which is one of the reasons why so many people have a problem with you.

 

MS65FBL Franklins can be had for $25. Admit it. You're just pissed that your cheap and common coin only got 49 points. That's not my problem and if you want more points then get a coin that isn't common and cheap.

 

I'm sorry that you want me to "BACK OFF!!" when discussing this topic. If you don't want comments on a topic, then don't post it. Lecture your dog on the evils of only giving 49 points to a super numismatic rarity.

 

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