You Won't believe this but it is TRUE! NO place in registry for Wash Dollar!

[ronday]

There was the 41/42 overdate and the 1955 double die to name two that are included in every album and complete collection of Merc dimes and Lincoln pennies.

 

The Flat edged washington dollar is an error for both the denver and philly mints and there is no way to know which mint the coin came from!

 

I have called NGC and was informed (indirectly) by the president of NGC that there will be no place in the registry for the 2007 no-date/mm Washington dollar.

 

This is patently absurd! This is a MAJOR type like the 1922 no D penny!

 

You cannot simply ignore a coin minted in quantity that will not fit in any other catagory but its own.

 

I have 12 of these and am either going to send them to NGC or PCGS. If NGC will not recognize these coins they will leave me with no choice but to send them to PCGS, since NGC will recognize the PCGS coins if they ever come to their senses and I am sure PCGS will find a place for these gems in their REGISTRY!

[Jeff S]

Good questions. I hope somone sees this and can reply. I for one would also hope they are listed in the registry.

[gmarguli]

It sounds like NGC will recognize these coins on the insert as being a mint error, but currently has no place for them in their Registry. I believe this is the same for PCGS. Perhaps this will change in the future. My guess is you'll be able to put together an entire set of these coins with no edge lettering. These are turning out to be extremely common.

[rons]

I have several of these error coins on order as well. I figured these would find a niche much as the double dies and other assorted errors that have become "acceptable". Is this going to be a time thing, like the Hall of Fame, where the coin has to be released for so many years before it is recognized? What is the point of getting these coins graded if there is nowhere in the registry for them? I realize this is a new error but the wisconsin et al didn't take long to get placed. What could the problem be? Perhaps a recall like the 33 Saint? I don't understand the rationale for this decision.

[CurrierVentures]

It sounds like NGC will recognize these coins on the insert as being a mint error, but currently has no place for them in their Registry. I believe this is the same for PCGS. Perhaps this will change in the future. My guess is you'll be able to put together an entire set of these coins with no edge lettering. These are turning out to be extremely common.

 

What do you consider extremely common? So far the only coins that I have seen have come from two cities in Florida..and possibly a single coin from Chicago. Where is the data on which you are basing your opinion?

 

Please share

[CurrierVentures]

I have some of these as well and I think there needs to be a place for them in the registry.

[physics-fan3.14]

I do not think these are a major error. They do seem to be more common than previously assumed, as reports are starting to come in from all over about them. Yet, I did see them just yesterday on Ebay for $200. If they were so rare, odds are that 3 out of 5 people responding to this topic would not have several of them already.

[CurrierVentures]

I guess Ill have to disagree with your logic. We have them because we see the value in them. So far, a majority...and I do mean a majority of them on ebay are from florida... Tallahassee and Jacksonville. There are also a couple from Chicago. I would hardly classify those as "all over". Once I see people pulling these from bank rolls from other states...then maybe I will believe they are common.

 

I do not think these are a major error. They do seem to be more common than previously assumed, as reports are starting to come in from all over about them. Yet, I did see them just yesterday on Ebay for $200. If they were so rare, odds are that 3 out of 5 people responding to this topic would not have several of them already.

[CurrierVentures]

besides...if they are as common as you suggest... then all the more reason to include them in the registry.

[gmarguli]

It sounds like NGC will recognize these coins on the insert as being a mint error, but currently has no place for them in their Registry. I believe this is the same for PCGS. Perhaps this will change in the future. My guess is you'll be able to put together an entire set of these coins with no edge lettering. These are turning out to be extremely common.

 

What do you consider extremely common? So far the only coins that I have seen have come from two cities in Florida..and possibly a single coin from Chicago. Where is the data on which you are basing your opinion?

 

Please share

 

I'd estimate that there have been 500 listed on eBay in the last 2 weeks. That's not exactly rare by my standards. Lots of people are reporting finding them. Many sellers have multiple examples for sale. I suspect that this will be a known common coin selling for a fraction of the current "value" in the coming months.

[ronday]

It sounds like NGC will recognize these coins on the insert as being a mint error, but currently has no place for them in their Registry. I believe this is the same for PCGS. Perhaps this will change in the future. My guess is you'll be able to put together an entire set of these coins with no edge lettering. These are turning out to be extremely common.

 

What do you consider extremely common? So far the only coins that I have seen have come from two cities in Florida..and possibly a single coin from Chicago. Where is the data on which you are basing your opinion?

 

Please share

 

I'd estimate that there have been 500 listed on eBay in the last 2 weeks. That's not exactly rare by my standards. Lots of people are reporting finding them. Many sellers have multiple examples for sale. I suspect that this will be a known common coin selling for a fraction of the current "value" in the coming months.

 

Common as in 250,000 or so 41/42 over dates or the 1955 doubledies?

 

the more common they are the stronger the arguement to make a place for them in the registry. If there were only a few RARE examples it wouldn't make sense to put them in the registry, but if they are part of the common currency, DUH?

 

I would be surprised to hear of more than 100,000 of these coins at the end of it all. They are, after all, Illegal since they lack information required on all US coinage

[CurrierVentures]

Ill dance in the streets if only 500 of these exist.

[physics-fan3.14]

I would be surprised to hear of more than 100,000 of these coins at the end of it all. They are, after all, Illegal since they lack information required on all US coinage

 

If there are even 25,000 (not an unreasonable estimate), you must remember that there will probably be the same number for each of the coming presidential dollars (at least this year, the mint may or may not fix the issue in the coming years). That means there may be 100,000 a year for up to 10 years: that's 1 million of these errors. That is by no means rare.

 

And if they added every little jot and tittle into the registry, the thing would lose all meaning. If it is added to the Redbook, or the Cherry Pickers guide, as a true variety, then I would advocate its addition into the registry. Do you see off centered lincolns in the registry? Do you see clipped coins in the registry? Do you even see all the latest doubled dies in the registry (such as Oregon, Minnesota, etc.)?

[timward75]

this is not cool with all the state hood quarter errors which have spots in the registry i think NGC should come to their senses and add a spot for the washington errors

[Stanley]

There was the 41/42 overdate and the 1955 double die to name two that are included in every album and complete collection of Merc dimes and Lincoln pennies.

 

The Flat edged washington dollar is an error for both the denver and philly mints and there is no way to know which mint the coin came from!

 

I have called NGC and was informed (indirectly) by the president of NGC that there will be no place in the registry for the 2007 no-date/mm Washington dollar.

 

This is patently absurd! This is a MAJOR type like the 1922 no D penny!

 

You cannot simply ignore a coin minted in quantity that will not fit in any other catagory but its own.

 

I have 12 of these and am either going to send them to NGC or PCGS. If NGC will not recognize these coins they will leave me with no choice but to send them to PCGS, since NGC will recognize the PCGS coins if they ever come to their senses and I am sure PCGS will find a place for these gems in their REGISTRY!

I have a suggestion.

The Washington Dollars just came available and as of today there is only one year issue. (Hardly enough to justify a set) Why not give the powers that be time to plan there appropriate places into the Registry. There could be other interesting errors to discover and it may even be possible to formulate a complete set of Washington Dollar errors.

 

Until such time, why not start a signature set and show the folks at NGC and the readers of this forum how you would like to see your sets displayed.

[Stanley]

Ron, this isn’t the first time you have come over here to this forum with the intentions of deliberately antagonizing NGC .

 

http://www.tradingslabs.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3327

 

[CurrierVentures]

I would be surprised to hear of more than 100,000 of these coins at the end of it all. They are, after all, Illegal since they lack information required on all US coinage

 

If there are even 25,000 (not an unreasonable estimate), you must remember that there will probably be the same number for each of the coming presidential dollars (at least this year, the mint may or may not fix the issue in the coming years). That means there may be 100,000 a year for up to 10 years: that's 1 million of these errors. That is by no means rare.

 

And if they added every little jot and tittle into the registry, the thing would lose all meaning. If it is added to the Redbook, or the Cherry Pickers guide, as a true variety, then I would advocate its addition into the registry. Do you see off centered lincolns in the registry? Do you see clipped coins in the registry? Do you even see all the latest doubled dies in the registry (such as Oregon, Minnesota, etc.)?

 

Perhaps you have hit the nail on the head. Maybe these really are more accurately described as a DIE VARIETY. They arent horribly disfigured... they just were not struck by the die in the same way as the others. Perhaps we should start referring to these as a DIE VARIETY and not an error.

[WaxonWaxov]

Ill dance in the streets if only 500 of these exist.

 

Sorry, but there's mroe than 500 on the Bay right now.

[CurrierVentures]

I know. If you follow the thread, I was referring to a comment that 500 on ebay represented a lack of rarity. As you might have gained, I was disagreeing.

[WaxonWaxov]

My bad.

 

Maybe if you're signature wasn't so damned big the thread would be easier to read. (just yankin' your chain)

[Scott_Schechter]

The Presidential $1 Coins without edge lettering are mint errors. They are recognized as mint errors by NGC, and this information is noted on the certification label.

 

No mint error coins are eligible for the Competitive Sets in the Registry, however, they are eligible for the Signature Sets section of the Registry, and a mint error category exists for this purpose.

 

These coins are not varieties. A variety is a coin that has characteristics specific to the die pair that struck it. Most collectible varieties can thus be traced to a set of dies. For example, the 2004 D Extra Leaf High Wisconsin 25C variety was struck from a single die that had a mark or flaw resembling an additional leaf.

 

The Washington $1 without edge lettering, by contrast, seems to have missed a step in the minting process during which edge lettering is applied to the coins. This happens after the coins are struck, and the set of dies that struck the coin are not relevant to the error that has occurred. Because it is a mistake that relates to that individual coin, and not a characteristic of the dies a group of coins, it is not a variety.

 

Mint errors are, by definition, mistakes that occur during the mechanical minting process that affect a single coin. Some mint errors are more common than others. We all have seen States Quarters errors that are missing a clad layer. One side appears to be copper, and the other has a regular nickel surface. These are relatively common. How many have seen a struck clad layer? A clad layer that has peeled off of a planchet and is then struck is very rare. These layers are paper thin, easily damaged, and detected by Mint quality control measures.

 

The scarcity of an error does not affect its classification as a mint error or a variety.

 

Mint error coins are not eligible for the Competitive Sets Registry because of the rigidity of the categories and scoring. For example, how should an 50% off center States Quarter be scored versus a coin that is 25% off center? Furthermore, does the direction that a coin is off center matter to its scoring? It certainly matters to collectors.

 

The bottom line is that it is too soon to assess the eligibility of these coins for Competitive Sets in the NGC Registry. I, for one, think that a complete set of Presidential $1 Coins without edge lettering would be one of the neatest modern coin mint error sets imaginable. Who knows if such a set will be possible? We are only two weeks into the Presidential $1 Coin program, and it is premature to contemplate a wholesale revision of the rules of the Registry based on the appearance of these error coins. NGC will continue to assess this based on the number of coins without edge lettering that we receive for certification, and the demand for their inclusion in the Competitive Registry. In light of the release schedule, we are most likely a couple of years away determining if this change if it is merited.

[WaxonWaxov]

Thanks, Scott

 

My next question is will there be a difference between "heads up" and "tails up" both on the slabs and in the Registry?

 

Heads up meaning obverse up when the edge lettering is right-side up, and tails up the opposite.

[CurrierVentures]

My bad.

 

Maybe if you're signature wasn't so damned big the thread would be easier to read. (just yankin' your chain)

 

The images dont resize well...

[gmarguli]

Fred Weinberg posted ATS that the current estimate is 40,000 examples.

 

Considering the mint is still minting these coins by the truck load and probably most of the already minted ones have not been looked at, that number is likely to go WAY up.

[ronday]

A variety is a coin that has characteristics specific to the die pair that struck it. Most collectible varieties can thus be traced to a set of dies. For example, the 2004 D Extra Leaf High Wisconsin 25C variety was struck from a single die that had a mark or flaw resembling an additional leaf.

 

Since the new Presidential dollars use an entirely new minting process, it may be time to add a new definition to variety.

 

Mint errors are, by definition, mistakes that occur during the mechanical minting process that affect a single coin. Some mint errors are more common than others. We all have seen States Quarters errors that are missing a clad layer. One side appears to be copper, and the other has a regular nickel surface. These are relatively common. How many have seen a struck clad layer? A clad layer that has peeled off of a planchet and is then struck is very rare. These layers are paper thin, easily damaged, and detected by Mint quality control measures.

 

Since the new minting process, unlike the old incused edge minting process, is a post die strike process it can be argued that nothing that happens on the edge can be considered a valid variety. It can also be argued that this step is an integral part of the minting process of the coin and that the mint has created a new variety by ommission of this step on these coins. This is especially true since based on past minting processes, the coins are fully minted after the die process makes the coin.

 

Mint error coins are not eligible for the Competitive Sets Registry because of the rigidity of the categories and scoring. For example, how should an 50% off center States Quarter be scored versus a coin that is 25% off center? Furthermore, does the direction that a coin is off center matter to its scoring? It certainly matters to collectors.

 

This is a list of the most common errors:

 

Broadstrikes

Brockage

Capped die strike

Double strike

Indented error

Mechanical doubling

Off-center strike

Partial collar

Struck-through errors

Weak strikes

Defective Die

Lamination

Broadstrike

Clipped Planchet

Wrong Planchet

 

Most of these errors share the problem you described of degree, The ones that are not a matter of degree were not made because of the lack of a minting process that produced complete gradeable coins, consistent from coin to coin as are the flat edge Presidential dollar type. This is the weakness of your arguement against this being a new type. These coins are whole fully minted coins, lacking a new minting post process. This makes them a type coin.

[WaxonWaxov]

 

 

Yes! Ronday is my hero!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[physics-fan3.14]

The Presidential $1 Coins without edge lettering are mint errors. They are recognized as mint errors by NGC, and this information is noted on the certification label.

 

No mint error coins are eligible for the Competitive Sets in the Registry, however, they are eligible for the Signature Sets section of the Registry, and a mint error category exists for this purpose.

 

 

Fred Weinberg posted ATS that the current estimate is 40,000 examples.

 

These two statements seem to sum up the argument. The two experts on the two issues being discussed here (NGC's inclusion and it's definition of variety vs. error, and the rarity of this error) have spoken, and I really find it hard to argue with them (not to mention pointless).

[ronday]

These two statements seem to sum up the argument. The two experts on the two issues being discussed here (NGC's inclusion and it's definition of variety vs. error, and the rarity of this error) have spoken, and I really find it hard to argue with them (not to mention pointless).

 

The presidential series uses a new minting process and as such requires review, not dismissal.

 

NGC seems to recognize this:

 

The bottom line is that it is too soon to assess the eligibility of these coins for Competitive Sets in the NGC Registry.

 

Reasoned discussion is never a "Waste Of Time". Someone trying to dismiss logical discourse and thoughtful disagreement, however, becomes pointless.

[Architecht]

These two statements seem to sum up the argument. The two experts on the two issues being discussed here (NGC's inclusion and it's definition of variety vs. error, and the rarity of this error) have spoken, and I really find it hard to argue with them (not to mention pointless).

 

The presidential series uses a new minting process and as such requires review, not dismissal.

 

NGC seems to recognize this:

 

The bottom line is that it is too soon to assess the eligibility of these coins for Competitive Sets in the NGC Registry.

 

Reasoned discussion is never a "Waste Of Time". Someone trying to dismiss logical discourse and thoughtful disagreement, however, becomes pointless.

 

"You Won't believe this but it is TRUE! NO place in registry for Wash Dollar!"

 

"This is patently absurd! This is a MAJOR type like the 1922 no D penny! "

 

"and I am sure PCGS will find a place for these gems in their REGISTRY! "

 

. Yes. You do seem to be the soul of reasoned discourse with a full 360 degree consideration of all of the issues.

 

[WaxonWaxov]

I think the bottom line is this:

 

Are you collecting the smooth edge George for the sake of having a cool coin to show the grandkids in 30 years, or just for the sake of competiton in the Registry?

 

If the prior, put it in an inert, airtight holder and put it away and forget about for 30 years.

 

If the latter, then aquire the nicest one you have, submit it for slabbing when it's convienent for you, and wait for it to be on the Registry set. If it is put on the set, you'll be ready. If it's not, then you still have a cool coin that will definetly be remembered as a major variety of this series.