What You Need To Know - Grading and Buying coins Based on Images

[Bruceswar]

Since in this day and age, most all of us purchase coins over the internet via ebay, Heritage, ANR, Teletrade, etc. This is a good time to bring up how to purchase coins through an image. Everybody here deals with images in some way form or fashion. Weather it be using an auction image to buy a coin or taking photos of our own coins to show and and ask opinions. Images are the key to getting the right coins at the right price. After all thats what you have to base your purchases off when dealing online.

 

First off we need to start by what is a good image vs a bad image reguardless of the coins that are being sold. A good image should show details, luster(If applicable), and any problems a coin may hide. Images CAN and ARE made to look the way the seller want the images to be like. A seller can bring out the luster, color, strike, or a number of things. THIS CAN ALSO LEAD TO A SELLER HIDING PROBLEMS AND THEN CLAIMING FOR YOU TO GRADE THE COIN OFF HIS IMAGES! Just because a seller has a good rating and is a power seller does not mean he can't be a crook. They are out there and they DO exist.

 

Coin Photography is one of the hardest if not the hardest things to do in coins. For every 50 people that has learned to grade coins there are 2 good coin photographers. Its just that hard. Many of you who have tried it, know how long it takes before you get photos you like as far as good representations of the coins. For me myself, I did not start seeing good results till after many failures. With that being said, many ebay sellers don't have the time nor the patience to sit down and figure out how to take good coin pictures. This even pretains to some Auction Houses that recieve alot of material, and sometimes offer scans or no images at all. These coins tend to be lower end coins, but I have seen some very high end coins with no photos. When I say high end it could be price wise or grade wise. The bulk of the coins they see limits there time to only perfect the best of the best coins, for auctions etc.

 

Lets take a look at what I would call some good photos and some bad ones.

 

Auction 1 - Ebay Link to Auction 1

 

THIS IS A NO RESERVE TRUE AUCTION-HIGH BIDDER WINS!

 

Offered is a RARE KEY DATE/MINT 1902 S MS62 silver dollar.This truly spectacular coin is hard to find in any MS condition coin that is graded by NGC-one of the top two grading services! MS62 designates a GEM BU coin. This is a white coin as indicated by the pictures.

 

Please note the exceptionally low population, merely in the hundreds, of this coin in any uncirculated grade! Typical coins, including many CCs are in the thousands-this a rare coin in this grade!

 

NGC is a top tier grading company that will hold its value , not to be confused with the many other grading services where the value is not trusted in the industry and among collectors. You are making a solid investment with NGC. It is currently the only grading service directly linked to Ebay, due to it's superior reputation.

 

Please my many other listings for both single key coins and various lots. Please put me on your favorite list as I will be listing over 100 NGC certified Morgans during the next 30 days .

 

ALL That hype over a coin in which picture does not do it any justice.

 

I respect NGC and thier grading, but those pictures at 100% tell me nothing about the coin. GEM BU, as he states, which this coin is not is MS65 and UP. From those images you can see nice luster, but the surfaces are left to die. How many hits, scrapes etc are on the coin is anybody's guess I would pass on the coin, reguardless of its closing price. 9 times out of 10 you will get a coin that you don't like and then the price does not mean a thing. You will also notice he has 100% feedback, which boast well, but coin Vault sells a ton of coins as well! You are buying plastic and not the coin!

 

Auction 2 - Ebay - Link to Auction 2

 

 

$5.00 Gold Indian -- You are bidding on a 1909-D $5 gold indian. This coin is in PREMIUM UNCIRCULATED condition. It displays tremendous golden luster and exceptional eye-appeal!!

 

 

This images show the coin has great detail, but where is the luster! I WANT LUSTER! You have no way of knowing if this coin A) Has been lightly wiped B) is lusterless or C) Impaired luster

or D) multiples of the above 2 words - Stay Away at all cost. More than likely you will not be happy with the coin. Never settle on a coin that is less that what you are looking for, because in the end you will not be happy with your collection.

 

 

Auction - 3 Link to Auction 3

 

You are bidding in a dutch auction on Brilliant Uncirculated Morgan Dollars. You can bid on 1 through 100 coins. This is a one day auction -- so you don't have to wait very long! These are all very nice uncirculated coins and make great affordable gifts. If you want less expensive Morgans, try one of my circulated Morgan auctions.

 

 

What looks to be a great morgan with a shot taken to show the DMPL like surfaces and for $22.99 how could you go wrong! But then you take your time reread the auction and find out it is ONE of 100 coins! That means it is a stock image and no telling what kind of coin(s) should you bid on more than one, will recieve. Stock images just sicken me to no end. I know it saves sellers time, but its so wrong on so many levels. Final word Stay Away!

 

 

Auction 4 - Link to Auction 4

 

Description:

** NGC. Like the 1887-P we have listed above this piece has killer colors on the periphery of the obverse that consists of lavender sapphire and gold framing the portrait beautifully. The reverse on the other hand displays even deeper colors that lead to the heavily frosted eagle just amazing to look at. The surfaces are PR67+ baby smooth and the strike is 100% full. Killer eye appeal coin that is one of only 7 that NGC has graded as such PCGS pop is a mere 3 coins. Best buy. List price..... $7850. Now at a Special discount price of

 

PCGS Daily Price Guide lists this Date in PR66, no listing fro PR67's, at $6,250 and CoinValues lists list PR65, their highest graded for the date, at $4,500.

 

 

 

This image is rather nice as far as online images go. I like how they chose to bring out the color in this proof coin. This is a coin that if you had the money, and you wanted it, certainly bid on it! Smokin coin and great details. But as a side note, when buying a coin of that magnitude please know what the differnece between a PR65, PR66, PR67. I say this because EVEN top tier grading services can miss coins by a point or 2. NGC and PCGS included.

 

 

Auction 5 - Link to Auction 5

 

 

I have recently aquired a rather large coin collection that was partial payment to a lawyer who handled a large estate sale. These coins are stunning, many would grade very high if certified. Morgan Silver Dollars in grades such as MS66, MS67 and MS68 are worth thousands of dollars. I am not a professional grader so decide for yourself on the grade, but I can assure you this is a very nice coin. Good luck with your bids!! and look out for more of these gems as I am able to put them up.

 

I have already found many coins that look BU (brilliant uncirculated) AU (almost uncirculated) and PL(proof like) in many key dates such as: (1878, 1879 CC, 1880 CC, 1880 O, 1883 S, 1889 CC,1893, 1894, 1895, 1901, and 1903)

 

 

 

1883- S MORGAN SILVER DOLLAR $90,000@MS66 RARE KEY! <--- That title says it all! I want to know where I can find raw MS66, MS67, MS68 coins by the dozen!! We all know the pop reports are super huge in those grades! Ok, on the serious side of things, this coin looks MS 62 at best and I am going to gable and say its been polished some and AU details left. Pictures are a problem if you ask me. Here again, where is the luster?? I am talking about luster like....

 

 

This was an image I shot and you can see and judge this coin via the image. Not so with many of the coins I posted.

 

Learning to grade from an image is very hard and I couild sit up here all night long and preach about how coins can look soo much different in hand than they do in pics, or how sooo many hidden facts about the coin can or cannot be shown. So many images that look decent are in fact not. Many of those great colorfull coins you see in Top Tier holders have what we like to call "Juiced" images, meaning they used color saturation on them to bring out the color, maybe even more so than in hand. So many people fall for the shock and awe, bid only to realize the coin looks nothing like the pictures. This comes down to a few simples rules about coin and images.

 

1. If the image is not good enough for you to judge on pass. There are many more coins and you will find the one you want with less headaches.

 

2. If the image is good enough for you and you know how to grade, reguardless if its slabbed or not. We all know Slabbing companys change thier opinions on coins.

 

3. ALWAYS Make sure there is no hairlines, scratches, grafitti etc, on any coin you buy. Take you time, read each auction carefully and study the picture as if it your first born.

 

 

This is just a few auctions and real world findings. There are thousands and I could analysize them all night long. But you know the old saying! "View as many coins in hand as possible!"

[TJ'S Coins]

Bruce, you have given us excellent advice to heed when looking at and purchasing coins via photographs. Thanks for your wonderful examples and thoughtful commentary on each. This is worth reading over again.

[Bruceswar]

I only wish I could have had time to show more examples. People can preach on for hours on the "Do's a nd Do nots", but for alot of people seeing real life examples really helps out.

[macrocoin]

Great thread and as always, some great advice.

My own experiece at photographing coins has led me to a few conclusions.

Primarily, a photo image of a coin generally cannot be accepted as valid documentation of a coins condition. I have taken pictures of lightly circulated coins that because of the lighting came out looking choice BU. I have taken shots of GEM BU coins that look like average circulated common silver. An honest person is a great thing, but rare sadly. It is quite easy to hide things like hairlines, cleaning, and other significant problems with just the right lighting and angle of the shot.

 

I buy two things on ebay....bulk silver lots from sellers that dont sell coins as a mainstay, and slabbed mid range coins where admitedly I am trusting the TPG more than the image.

 

I dont buy rolls or lots for people that sell coins regularly on ebay...if that is their business, the likelyhood of me finding a hidden gem is slim to none. Instead I look for the occasional seller that deals in collectibles, or genuinely is just getting rid of stuff for money...look through the other auctions...if they are selling doll houses for a living and just happen to be selling off grand pa's coin collection, they might pass on a great coins or two at a value price.

 

As stated above, buying the slab is no safe bet either. If the deal is too good to be true, it is. I picked up a DCAM Proof-68 Washington quarter a few years ago at about 20% of the going market rate...in NGC plastic...figured I couldnt go wrong. I get the coin...what the photography hid was horrible black spots in the fields. It may have passed as organic NT on a MS coin, but it wasnt helping the mirrors in a DCAM proof. Fortunately for me, for $20 it went back to NGC, thru NCS, back into a brand new NGC holder....grade preservered and coin in stunning condition.

Lesson learned....I got lucky in the end...but was it luck indeed.

 

Dont trust images, and on higer value coins, dont inherently trust the TPG grade.

Know what you are buying...as I have been told in the past....buy the book before the coin...and buy the coin, not the holder its in.

[cpm9ball]

Bruce, it's a coincidence that you mention "Auction #3". My curiosity got the best of me and I had $125 to waste just as one might playing the lottery or gambling in Las Vegas. So, I bought 5 of these Morgans to see what I would get. When I get them, I'll post pictures to add to this thread. They should arrive sometime next week.

 

Chris

[crazyboutcoins-migration]

Excellent post Bruce....Thanks for the lesson.

[TomB]

Very nice post, Bruce!

 

I think the 1883-S Morgan is clearly a polished AU, but this illustrates the points you were making in your thread very well in that we don't necessarily agree as to the condition of this coin yet we are asked to bid upon it.

 

By the way, that's an awfully nice looking 1942-S Washington quarter you have there.

[Stanley]

Chris, About 2 years ago I purchased a roll of Peace Dollars from this seller. After waiting a couple of weeks I emailed him only to hear excuses. One of the excuses was his mother was running his shipping department and she couldn’t make it to the Post Office because of the snow. He was arrogant, a real smart @ZZ with me. I told him over the phone to cancel my order and refund my money. He only refunded me a partial payment and kept my shipping and handling money because he claimed it was packaged waiting to go out. He seemed to know the rules well, for he told me that he had (can’t remember exactly) so many days to ship me my item before it was considered fraudulent. Maybe he was correct about the laws, etc however he was a complete JERK.

Good luck with this seller

 

Note to mikescoins1: You need to be nice to your customers

[Stanley]

If the image doesn’t deter you on this one the description should.

 

A lawyer takes this Morgan for pay on an estate sale. Did the lawyer get the Morgan for face value?

 

And there is that word again, estate.

 

The seller admits to not being professional. Why would a lawyer (professional) have an inexperienced person sell such potentially high end collectables?

 

The seller’s words “but I can assure you this is a very nice coin ” That’s proof enough for me of this sellers knowledge.

 

And the word stunning isn’t even effective anymore.

 

Just my opinion

[pendragon1998]

I hear them say "estate sale," they hear my footsteps walking away. Unless I am actually at the estate sale, or they can produce a corpse, I don't believe that line for a minute.

 

SHOW ME THE BODY!!! er... MONEY!!!

[DirtyGoldMan]

Since in this day and age, most all of us purchase coins over the internet via ebay, Heritage, ANR, Teletrade, etc. This is a good time to bring up how to purchase coins through an image. Everybody here deals with images in some way form or fashion.

I do not completely agree with the premise of this thread. There are a great many of us who do not rely solely on images posted on the internet to make coin purchase decisions, and I personally feel that it is often ill-advised to commit to coins from Heritage, ANR, and other venues in which there is not a transparent return policy, especially when buying expensive coins.

 

While I regularly use the internet images to try to get an idea what the coin might look like in hand, I feel that relying on coin images can be very dangerous, even for the most skilled numismatist. There are many ways a photo can fool you, and even a well-intentioned, high-quality photograph can be misleading.

 

Be careful out there.

[Excaliber]

VERY nice! Thanks for a great post!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cpm9ball]

Bruce, it's a coincidence that you mention "Auction #3". My curiosity got the best of me and I had $125 to waste just as one might playing the lottery or gambling in Las Vegas. So, I bought 5 of these Morgans to see what I would get. When I get them, I'll post pictures to add to this thread. They should arrive sometime next week.

 

Chris

 

Bruce, here is the follow-up to my original post.

 

I received the Morgans today. There is no point posting any photos. All of them are BU and were probably dipped. The problem is that all of them are 1921-P. I immediately went to the listing and sent the seller an e-mail. Even though I acknowledged that his listing did not specify any particular date, I expressed my disappointment because all were 1921-P. I told him that I felt he was misleading the public by showing a picture of an 1880. I added that I can buy 1921's all day long for $13-$15, and if he would send me a refund of $40, I would be satisfied.

 

I'll let you know the outcome as soon as I hear from him.

 

Chris

[Bruceswar]

Since in this day and age, most all of us purchase coins over the internet via ebay, Heritage, ANR, Teletrade, etc. This is a good time to bring up how to purchase coins through an image. Everybody here deals with images in some way form or fashion.

I do not completely agree with the premise of this thread. There are a great many of us who do not rely solely on images posted on the internet to make coin purchase decisions, and I personally feel that it is often ill-advised to commit to coins from Heritage, ANR, and other venues in which there is not a transparent return policy, especially when buying expensive coins.

 

While I regularly use the internet images to try to get an idea what the coin might look like in hand, I feel that relying on coin images can be very dangerous, even for the most skilled numismatist. There are many ways a photo can fool you, and even a well-intentioned, high-quality photograph can be misleading.

 

Be careful out there.

 

Saga, I agree 100% with that statment, but the fact is that while many of us know what to look out for and such, there will always be new blood who think images tell all. Like you said images can do some funny things to coins, from color, to hiding things etc. As always with anything! BUYER BEWARE! On a side note I have only bought one coin online. I Like to see my coins in hand, first.

[Bruceswar]

Very nice post, Bruce!

 

I think the 1883-S Morgan is clearly a polished AU, but this illustrates the points you were making in your thread very well in that we don't necessarily agree as to the condition of this coin yet we are asked to bid upon it.

 

By the way, that's an awfully nice looking 1942-S Washington quarter you have there.

 

Thanks for the nice comments on the 42-S QTR.. I am sure you would have liked it in your set.

[Bruceswar]

Auction 5 has a winning bid of "Winning bid: US $510.00 " OUCH!!!! And someday that guy will find out he bought junk for that price. Well it is junk since he paid that for it. I agree with Tom and my first thoughts Polished AU

[WaxonWaxov]

yea, I bought a dutch auction of Franklin Halves one time... all of them were 1963-D.

[WaxonWaxov]

And Auction #5 had a "10% restock fee" I don't know about you guys, but I don't play that way.

[Bruceswar]

And Auction #5 had a "10% restock fee" I don't know about you guys, but I don't play that way.

 

It all depends. I find 10% not bad if they man is honest about his coins. It keeps people from bidding viewing and returning. That 10% helps cover the listing fee's, paypal fee's, and final value fee's Ebay has. But this man was not honest, so there is the problem.

[RGT]

It all depends. I find 10% not bad if they man is honest about his coins. It keeps people from bidding viewing and returning. That 10% helps cover the listing fee's, paypal fee's, and final value fee's Ebay has. But this man was not honest, so there is the problem.

 

I've heard that from sellers before. But when you issue a refund PayPal will refund the fees and Ebay will refund the final value fees. The only thing the seller is out is the listing fee and Ebay will let you relist for free. All that the seller really loses is a couple of weeks before he can sell the coin again. At 10% every few weeks I'd want all of my coins returned every time. You can't get a return like that at the bank.

[MikeInFL]

Since in this day and age, most all of us purchase coins over the internet via ebay, Heritage, ANR, Teletrade, etc. This is a good time to bring up how to purchase coins through an image. Everybody here deals with images in some way form or fashion.

I do not completely agree with the premise of this thread. There are a great many of us who do not rely solely on images posted on the internet to make coin purchase decisions, and I personally feel that it is often ill-advised to commit to coins from Heritage, ANR, and other venues in which there is not a transparent return policy, especially when buying expensive coins.

 

While I regularly use the internet images to try to get an idea what the coin might look like in hand, I feel that relying on coin images can be very dangerous, even for the most skilled numismatist. There are many ways a photo can fool you, and even a well-intentioned, high-quality photograph can be misleading.

 

Be careful out there.

 

Well said. If you are intent on purchasing a high-dollar coin via auction, it is well worth your time and money to have someone you trust view the coin for you in person. Personally, I do not purchase coins in auction unless there is a return priviledge or I view, or have viewed for me, the lot in-hand..Mike

[Bruceswar]

Mike thats some great advice, about purchuasing via auctions. I have yet to buy a coin from a major auction house, but I am sure I will in my time in coins.

[relicsncoins]

Bruce,

 

Nice post. There is also a flip side to this. I purposly bid on poor image auctions, in the hopes of scoring a nice coin at a rediculous price. With that being said, it does take some practice, and I have made mistakes. I exlusively stick to the series that I have the most knowledge of (Indian Head Cents). Also, I only bid on raw coin because with reputable slabs, there are enough people that have blind faith in plastic that poor picture or not will usually result in a price I am unwilling to pay. I'm also not bidding on coins that are 5 or 6 hundred dollars, they are typically under a hundred and many under 50, so the consequences of making a mistake are no overwhelming.

 

It does take some practice to be able to decipher a poor picture and decide whether there is enough information there to warrent a bid. Most of the coins I recieve are average for the grade but every now and again you end up with a winning 14 dollar bid on a photo like this:

 

 

 

And then the package arives and this is what is in it:

 

 

 

JJ

[Bruceswar]

relic you hit my point exactly! Knowing how to tell if a coin is good or not even if the image is bad. You will see coins with blurry images or a tad bit off but you can see the coins potential. That is a sweet coin and you did well. Just like my one coin I got via an auction..

 

 

We all know how I scored that off an auction that was mislabeled and a pic that would have kept some people away. Knowledge is the key to making any coin purchase. The more you know and learn the less mistakes you will make.

[supertooth]

Bruce-----I know that I am a bit late participating in this thread. I have had a death in the family. But I wanted to compliment you on a fine post----excellent pictures. The replies were also to the point.

In 7 years of dealing on Ebay, I can honestly say that I consider myself experienced with seller's pictures. It is truly amazing how they manage to: either picture the coin correctly and honestly----or somehow hide the coin's problems and change the colors so that the coin looks ok. After awhile, you mostly know the 'bad' guys. You learn to email a lot---to ask questions.

As a beginner, you will make mistakes. We all do. But, with patience, and additional knowledge---most can learn to only bid on the decent coins which ARE available on Ebay. I recently purchased 32 original skinned----never dipped and mostly wonderfully toned Walkers which will---after grading by NGC---become the other half of my Walker Registry Set from 1936 to 1947. I waited 7 years for such a set to appear. These coins are there on the Bay if you are patient and know them when you see them. Bob [supertooth]

[Bruceswar]

great points bob. I hope all is ok. Can't wait to see the walkers.

[Ted K-migration]

New user, been lurking a bit, and absolutely love the board so far. Adding to a slightly old topic, but this morning has brought many giggles and a great example of images to be suspicious of in this ebay auction I tripped across just now.

 

Take note of the image of the obverse of the coin. The whole thing looks very smooth and satiny, almost like a proof gone odd. The edge of the rim is gone above the "TY" (as well as the top of the T) in LIBERTY. Same thing underneath "19". The label is also suspect, with the portion of the underlying logo that should be to the right of the 66 (the line going down to the scale) totally missing. The static looking stuff around the letters could either be a result of major jpg compression or it could be a result of a poorly done paste job. With the image quality of the rest of it, it's probably jpg compression, but that portion of the scales logo missing, it could be a combination. Oddly, the photo of the reverse seems relatively untouched, though there seems to be major toning going on. Heavy photoshop job on the obverse, the coin may very well be NGC, but is likely a much lower grade, or it's in an NGC holder and the label is fake, though the hologram seems to be legit. One would think that they would do this kind of a job on a higher value coin, but at $100 over Trends being the asking price, I suppose if he can get it, there's going to be a happy seller and a very unhappy buyer. A further look at some of his other SBAs provides some very similar examples, including one with the NGC holo shredded.

 

This has turned into a book, but I think it's a good example of what to not only avoid, but run from as fast as possible. Plus, it's such an obviously done photoshop it made me giggle a lot and I thought some of you out there may get a kick out of it as well.

[Bruceswar]

This coin looks fine. Just bas images here.

[Pecus100-migration]

I have heard that the plastic pouch that holds panda coins may leak into the plastic capsule in which the coins are held over long periods of time, thus damaging the coins despite the fact that they are in plastic capsules. Is this true and thus does it make sense to take panda coins out of the plastic pouches they come in, even if it means losing the guarantee that no one has opened the coin?

[EZ_E]

Cool article, Bruce. I can't believe that I hadn't seen it until now. Oh, and Chris, what ever happened with the partial refund for the 1921 Morgans from the dutch auction?