A few questions for knowledgeable Standing Liberty Quarter collectors!

[Gembeeyou]

Standing Liberty Quarters have always been my favorite US silver coins, and after more than a 20 yr.collecting "dormancy", I'm now getting a little involved in the hobby again. I have J H Cline's book on SLQ (3rd edition) and even talked to him in person for a while at the Feb. 2006 Long Beach show, and respect his knowledge and helpfulness. My only regret about his book is that the majority of the information, charts and graphs center around MS 65 and up "Full Head" quarters, which are often out of my financial grasp!

 

Is he considered THE leading expert on this series, or are there other acknowledged authorities around today and other excellent, and perhaps even more current books and/or informative web sites about SLQ's that I should check out, and online dealers of high integrity that offer SLQ more in the more affordable, AU - MS 63 range?

 

Another question I have concerns the fact that I see a lot of SLQ's, especially on eBay, called F.H. that are not, at least not according to Cline's definition, which I'll paraphrase: "in a true full head there is a clearly distinct, continuous line of separation of the hair from the temple, the cheekbone, and the throat area, as well as a hole or at least an indentation, in her hair in the ear area."

 

Is that basically the accepted definition or criteria that is used by the ANA dealers, and TPG companies, or is Cline being idealistic and too strict? Thank you.

[James_OldeTowne]

FinestKnown, the first thing you should keep in mind is that Cline is a coin dealer, and his main job is to separate you from as much of your hard-earned money as he can. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but you need to KNOW and understand that that's his objective (as well as that of any red-blooded coin dealer). His objective is NOT to help you figure out the best way to collect this series according to your goals and capabilities. That's MY job as a fellow coin collector, and that of the other good coin collectors here on the NGC forums. So, that said, you've done the right thing by posting this question!

 

The first thing you ABSOLUTELY MUST DO is figure out what YOU want. If you just absolutely must have full-heads, then there you go. But if you are interested in saving 75% off the price of a BU full-head set, and owning a really nice set that 80% of the collectors out there can't tell from a full-head set, then you should simply pursue nicely-struck coins in BU that are not full-head - but are close.

 

Now, to answer your question directly, the whole "full head" issue is blown way out of proportion by many "specialists", including Cline (whom I've met several times). "Full head" speaks just about nothing regarding the quality of the strike of the coin. What you really want to look for are coins that have full shield detail.

 

You need to read two things I've written. First of all, download this 236Kb PDF document from my website to learn why the full-shield is much more important than the so-called "full head". Second, here is my "What You Need To Know" article on these boards. I mention it because in the section entitled "The coin collector on a budget", I discuss a friend who had the exact situation you are encountering right now, and how he resolved it.

 

Good luck to you. A small investment in time spent right now deciding what you want to collect will save you a ton of heartache and pain and frustration in the future.

 

James

[supertooth]

Finest Known----James is right---Ms FH SLQ are for those with real deep pockets. Most cannot afford such outlays of money. Whereas a set of Au--Unc coins----especially if 'original skinned coins'---would be a challenge. They certainly would appreciate in value over time. And your grading skills would improve as you collect these coins----so that, if you wanted to go to some FH coins later on, you would then have the knowledge to do so at that time. James is also correct about the shield. The key to the 'very best' coins is in the shield. Bob [supertooth]

[errorist]

Standing Liberty Quarters have always been my favorite US silver coins, and after more than a 20 yr.collecting "dormancy", I'm now getting a little involved in the hobby again. I have J H Cline's book on SLQ (3rd edition) and even talked to him in person for a while at the Feb. 2006 Long Beach show, and respect his knowledge and helpfulness. My only regret about his book is that the majority of the information, charts and graphs center around MS 65 and up "Full Head" quarters, which are often out of my financial grasp!

 

Is he considered THE leading expert on this series, or are there other acknowledged authorities around today and other excellent, and perhaps even more current books and/or informative web sites about SLQ's that I should check out, and online dealers of high integrity that offer SLQ more in the more affordable, AU - MS 63 range?

 

Another question I have concerns the fact that I see a lot of SLQ's, especially on eBay, called F.H. that are not, at least not according to Cline's definition, which I'll paraphrase: "in a true full head there is a clearly distinct, continuous line of separation of the hair from the temple, the cheekbone, and the throat area, as well as a hole or at least an indentation, in her hair in the ear area."

 

Is that basically the accepted definition or criteria that is used by the ANA dealers, and TPG companies, or is Cline being idealistic and too strict? Thank you.

 

Hi finest Known I sure like those proof die cracks you have on Ebay!!! Those are my favorate.Anyways, do you know of any proof die cracks on SLQ's? Or did they ever make any Proof SLQ's?

[chinook]

Welcome!!!

 

SLQ's IMO are one of the most beautiful coins designs.

[michael]

there is a fine line between what is graded full head and what truly is full head for some to many dates in current legit third party grading services holders

 

and many of these so called full head coins are 95% not 100% but the prices are triple or more or a regular non full head

 

then you got so called full head coins at huge prices yet the shiled and/or the rivits on the shiled are not fully struck

 

myself i would only buy coins that are NOT graded full head but are close and also have a way avbove average strike or full strike on miss liberty and her shield and if say you are buying choice unc coins the coin is original white and/or toned with great lustre and eye appeal and no wipe lines and also unmessed with

 

then you get some great coins and can sleep at night not worrying when the tulip blub market will crash so to speak

 

myself i do not like standers at all never had one and most likely never will

 

if i were you and i am not you but if i were you i would collect a sweet type set of pre 1915 federal coinage and add some low mintage nicely colored pre 1915 proof coins

[Jazzy]

myself i would only buy coins that are NOT graded full head but are close and also have a way avbove average strike or full strike on miss liberty and her shield and if say you are buying choice unc coins the coin is original white and/or toned with great lustre and eye appeal and no wipe lines and also unmessed with

 

then you get some great coins and can sleep at night not worrying when the tulip blub market will crash so to speak

 

I couldn't agree more. I only own one SLQ, but it's exactly how you describe, Michael, even though the scan doesn't do the coin justice.

 

 

[Gembeeyou]

Hi James.

Thank you for your insightful comments and article links, which I will definitely read later. Yes, of course I am aware that Cline is a profit-oriented dealer, but after talking to him for 15-20 min. in person, was pleasantly surprised at his willingness to just "talk S.L. Quarters", his main collecting passion. I have found that the majority of dealers at coin shows have little "heart" for the hobby itself any longer, and unfortunately look at the stopwatch that allots how much time they'll talk with you through dollar-sign filters that are fitted securely over their eyes!

 

I also am one who is very satisfied with "nearly F.H"., well-struck, coins, with lots of eye-appeal (which is actually what most of mine are), and am realistic enough to accept that I'll never have a 1916 in my collection or a 1918/17 S, without feeling depressed.

 

I primarily wanted to know if Cline is currently considered by mature hobbyists, ANA dealers, and TPG's to be one of the top, if not the, "authoritative voice" on SLQ in general and full heads in particular, as well as be directed towards other solid books, articles, or web-sites on S.L.Quarters, and your post has definitely helped me along towards that goal, and is much appreciated!

[Gembeeyou]

Thank you to everyone who responded. I appreciate your input, advice, and perspectives on this topic!

[Gembeeyou]

Hi finest Known I sure like those proof die cracks you have on Ebay!!! Those are my favorate.Anyways, do you know of any proof die cracks on SLQ's? Or did they ever make any Proof SLQ's?

Hello Errorist,

Actually I don't own any error coins, and am not that person called "finestknown" on eBay! I just use that name on this board.

[errorist]

Oh! Sometimes assumptions can really trick you.My bad sorry!!

[Gembeeyou]

No problem!

[RoelSports]

I am obsessed with the SLQ series and think that this is the most beautiful of our silver coinage. I think that Cline has earned the right to be called the definitive expert in this field if only for the fact that he has been concentrating on SLQ's for decades, and has owned most of the important pieces at one time or another. His passion for the series has led to research that is way beyond what a typical collector might do, and he is willing to discuss these coins with anyone. Contrary to him being totally absorbed by the FH designation, he has also educated me on the shield w/rivets and lines, the right knee, the date and the feathers on the eagles breast.Also, I now know which dates and mints are poorly struck, and when i can "forgive". I am not a shill for Jay, as I have bought several pieces for my set from other dealers. He has just made me a much better collector. scr

[RWB]

If you are interested in how the SL quarter was created and the initial designs and patterns, you should borrow a copy of "Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-21." The ANA Library has copies available for loan, and some coin dealers and book stores have the book for sale. (RAC 1916-21 is not a date/mint book, and I doubt you'll find "full head" mentioned - but the depth and scope of design and production info is superior to anything else.)

[Gembeeyou]

I am obsessed with the SLQ series and think that this is the most beautiful of our silver coinage.

I certainly agree with you on that, RoelSports!

 

I think that Cline has earned the right to be called the definitive expert in this field if only for the fact that he has been concentrating on SLQ's for decades, and has owned most of the important pieces at one time or another. His passion for the series has led to research that is way beyond what a typical collector might do, and he is willing to discuss these coins with anyone.

 

After reading his small, 1st edition book, back in the late '70's, and now diligently absorbing the info. in his 3rd edition over and over again, I believe you're correct, but because I've been out of the (coin collecting) loop for over two decades, I'm staying open to, and greatly appreciate others' opinions on this board also. I'd still like to know if anyone here knows of any other excellent books that are available on S.L.Q., or is his the "only game in town"?

 

Contrary to him being totally absorbed by the FH designation, he has also educated me on the shield w/rivets and lines, the right knee, the date and the feathers on the eagles breast.Also, I now know which dates and mints are poorly struck, and when i can "forgive". I am not a shill for Jay, as I have bought several pieces for my set from other dealers. He has just made me a much better collector. scr

 

I found him to be that way also, in the admittedly, brief time I talked with him. I didn't mean to make this thread a forum on Cline's ethics or personal character though; I only mentioned his name because his is the only in-depth, full length, seemingly authoritative, published resource on this specific series that I've come across thus far.

[michael]

i want that coin jazzy

[Elbesaar]

Welcome to the SLQ Fraternity. You'll be happy to know there is another SLQ dealer who is very knowledgable and is great to work with. Steve Sabatino of SLQ Coins. You should see the choice AU55-58FH coins he has to offer. If MS FH coins are too much money to spend at the moment, and I can appreciate that, you may very well be more than happy with a collection of choice AU coins.

 

I have collected these beauties for a few years and I started with choice raw AUFH's and slowly added certified MS coins. My collection always seems to be under revision. My latest addition is a wonderful 20-D in 65FH; its image is posted on this Registry site.

 

Jay Cline certainly knows his SLQ's and I have his first and third editions of his book. I've spoken to him numerous times in the past and - as you have - have learned quite alot from him. I have also purchased a few things from him in the past and he's great to work with.

 

Regarding "FH" and "Full Shield" : believe me when I tell you this: "Full Shields" are virtually impossible to locate; when you do, they always seem to be accompanied with a "FH"...although not 100% of the time. Only an infinitely small percentage of SLQ's are available with a "Full Shield". Locating a coin with all the shield bosses and full vertical and horizontal inner shield lines is like finding a needle in a haystack...you'll have better luck finding that needle.

 

RoelSports is starting an adventure that the faint of heart shy away from. I commend him on his efforts. ( Check out his 1916 & overdate !!! ) There are a number of very fine sets being worked on and the ultimate set currently to aspire to is "Just Having Fun" who has some of the most outrageous coins in existance. His duplicates would make me more than happy. I know he has the 1916 prototype - unique, I believe, and that coin is the cover coin of Jay Cline's 3rd edition.

 

Another superlative set being formed is by Malibu Collector. Check out his images...not too many of his coins are imaged, but what's there is out of this world (Check out his 26-D & S !!! )

 

Once RoelSports and Mailbu Collector finish their sets, there very well may be a three way tie for "All Time Finest Set".

 

As many have mentioned, it takes "deep pockets" to get into a FH set, especially in the Gem & Superb grades. I would have added an image of my favorite SLQ, but as I don't post here very much, I'm not sure how to do this. ( Check out my 1928-D )

 

Good luck with your set, and advice regarding specific dates or where to look for nice coins ( I'm constantly checking dealer's inventories ) let me know, I'd be more than happy to help.

 

Mike Hayes

[RoelSports]

Hey, Mike...great to see you here...the SLQ collector certainly has to be resourceful, as many are scarce and the entire series, save the 1917's, has strike problems. There is a very informative post above with text and pics showing why shield detail is so elusive.thanks to all for educating us..scr

[RoelSports]

You and I are in the same boat, Finest....back in and learning...scr

[Gembeeyou]

Thanks for the additional info, Mike! I looked at SLQ Coins site & there are some very nice AU coins there. I did notice that he has a 1924 D AU 53 pictured that he calls "FH not denoted" that definitely would not meet Cline's "unbroken hair line" definition of a FH though, but has a 1927 P, PCGS 64 that he calls "95% FH, that is much more near being a full head than his "FH not noted (by the TPG)" coin is. Go figure?

 

He also mentions that his AU coins are graded by the "Sheldon scale". Do you, or any other posters here know what that is? Aren't Photograde & The ANA Grading Guide still the standards for non-unc. coins?

I'll check out his site more thoroughly later.

 

Thanks again for your informative response!

Jim

[Jazzy]

He also mentions that his AU coins are graded by the "Sheldon scale". Do you, or any other posters here know what that is? Aren't Photograde & The ANA Grading Guide still the standards for non-unc. coins?

 

That is the Sheldon scale - the only one in use in US numismatics.

[Gembeeyou]

Hey, Roel! We sure are! The main difference is that it sounds like your ship has already salvaged a lot of choice treasure chests full of SLQ's from the ocean depths of bourse floors, while I'm just diving off my row boat with a snorkel, hoping to pluck up a nice coin here and there from the shallow cove!

[Gembeeyou]

Thank you.

[Elbesaar]

I figured out how to attach images ( as an attachment only, not how to have the image shown by itself ) so...

 

Here's the obverse of the 1928-D

[zrlevin]

 

 

Here ya go...Nice coin!

[EZ_E]

I figured out how to attach images ( as an attachment only, not how to have the image shown by itself ) so...

 

Now...

 

1)open the attachment on your post.

2)copy & save the URL.

3)Edit your post by clicking the edit button.

4)go to where you want the image and click the Image box and insert the URL by right clicking and pasting the URL in the appropriate space.

4)Go to the bottom of your post and un-check the edit box.

5)Post it and there you go.

 

 

Here's the obverse of the 1928-D

 

Wow! That is a gorgeous coin! I want one. (I do need one for my type set but all good things come to those who wait.)

[RoelSports]

ZR beautiful coin!

[RoelSports]

Many treasures are found by snorkling..scr

[James_OldeTowne]

Cline is indeed the top expert with SLQs. Steve Sabatino is also very knowledgeable, and don't forget about Jack Beymer, who can talk about SLQs with the best of them. I have done business buying and selling with all three of these gentlemen, and recommend all three. But I do believe that Cline and Beymer tend to want TOP dollar for their coins, even when the coins are not TOP quality.

 

That's where it's incumbent on you to be aware of their ultimate #1 goal, which of course is always to get some of your money! Please bear in mind that I do not state this in a negative way - it's the way our economy is supposed to work! But it does make it incumbent on you, the collector, to be well-informed and well-rounded in your studies of your chosen series.

 

James

[RoelSports]

Good advice! Does Beymer have a website?scr