1858 Flying Eagle Cent 0

[Mikhail2400]

This is a very worn coin and the only one of its type I own, which is why I chose to post it now. Ive been reading up on the Coin Grading Scale so im going to give it my best guess and say I think it might be a AG3. What do yall thinkit is?

[Mohawk]

Hi again Mike!!!

Well, I just broke out the old Photograde guide and I think you nailed it.....I came up with an AG-3 based on your photos, too!!  Well done!!!

~Tom

[Coinbuf]

In the ballpark, could be as low as FR02 or as you said AG03

[Mohawk]

On 9/20/2021 at 12:13 AM, Coinbuf said:

In the ballpark, could be as low as FR02 or as you said AG03

That is true.  Photograde (at least the edition I have, which is the 19th Edition) only goes down to AG-3 on Flying Eagles, and it looked like a pretty good match for Mike's coin.  But it could be FR-2.  

Edited September 20, 2021 by Mohawk

[Coinbuf]

On 9/19/2021 at 9:17 PM, Mohawk said:

That is true.  Photograde (at least the edition I have, which is the 19th Edition) only goes down to AG-3 on Flying Eagles, and it looked like a pretty good match for Mike's coin.  But it could be FR-2.  

I think it could go either way, a coin flip grade at 5pm on Friday.  

[Mikhail2400]

Thanks for the input folks. I didnt even know there was a photograde guide until yall mentioned it. I googled it and just now saw what it is on the PCGS page. Now thats handy right there and yeah I see it could easily go either a 2 or 3.

[Mohawk]

On 9/20/2021 at 3:06 PM, Mikhail2400 said:

Thanks for the input folks. I didnt even know there was a photograde guide until yall mentioned it. I googled it and just now saw what it is on the PCGS page. Now thats handy right there and yeah I see it could easily go either a 2 or 3.

PCGS Photograde is definitely handy, no doubt about it.  I'm kind of a relic because I also keep the book around, too.  Though I no longer collect any U.S. coins myself, it comes in handy with answering questions around here and my little selling venture as well.  It's a handy little guide, to be sure!

[VKurtB]

On 9/19/2021 at 11:17 PM, Mohawk said:

That is true.  Photograde (at least the edition I have, which is the 19th Edition) only goes down to AG-3 on Flying Eagles, and it looked like a pretty good match for Mike's coin.  But it could be FR-2.  

I am NOT a user of Photograde. Never have been, never will be. 

[Mikhail2400]

On 9/21/2021 at 3:33 PM, VKurtB said:

I am NOT a user of Photograde. Never have been, never will be. 

 Would you care to say why you are so against such a seemingly handy tool? 

[Mohawk]

On 9/21/2021 at 3:33 PM, VKurtB said:

I am NOT a user of Photograde. Never have been, never will be. 

Hi Kurt!
I'm genuinely interested in your stance......why do you dislike Photograde?  I'd like to know, and Mike seems interested, too.

~Tom

[VKurtB]

Because of over 25 years in the photographic industry, all before my government service,   and my 10 years younger sister still runs the family photo business, we are all DEEPLY steeped in the recognition of photography’s considerable shortcomings. Not speaking for her, but myself alone, I MUCH prefer verbal descriptions of a coin’s condition. Basically, there is NOT one way for a coin to be G, VG, F, VF or XF. There are literally dozens, if not hundreds. Photograde is based on the utter fiction that your or my coin can be compared with a single photograph and be assigned a useful grade. And when it comes to the AU-MS range, anyone claiming to be able to is not just incorrect, but a liar as well. To one extent or other, it’s all educated (hopefully) guesses. 

Edited September 21, 2021 by VKurtB

[Mohawk]

On 9/21/2021 at 5:42 PM, VKurtB said:

Because of over 25 years in the photographic industry, all before my government service,   and my 10 years younger sister still runs the family photo business, we are all DEEPLY steeped in the recognition of photography’s considerable shortcomings. Not speaking for her, but myself alone, I MUCH prefer verbal descriptions of a coin’s condition. Basically, there is NOT one way for a coin to be G, VG, F, VF or XF. There are literally dozens, if not hundreds. Photograde is based on the utter fiction that your or my coin can be compared with a single photograph and be assigned a useful grade. And when it comes to the AU-MS range, anyone claiming to be able to is not just incorrect, but a liar as well. To one extent or other, it’s all educated (hopefully) guesses. 

That makes a lot of sense, Kurt.  I can see your issues with Photograde, and they're fair issues.  For my purposes, it works well because I do so little with U.S. coins from before 1965.  I don't collect them and I don't sell them.  Basically, I just answer questions about them here, sometimes offer grading opinions of them here and I go shopping for nice Morgans and Peace Dollars on gift giving occasions with my fiancée.  I guess for me, Photograde is good enough for my purposes.  But I do value other perspectives and I thank you for sharing yours   

[Mikhail2400]

On 9/21/2021 at 5:42 PM, VKurtB said:

Because of over 25 years in the photographic industry, all before my government service,   and my 10 years younger sister still runs the family photo business, we are all DEEPLY steeped in the recognition of photography’s considerable shortcomings. Not speaking for her, but myself alone, I MUCH prefer verbal descriptions of a coin’s condition. Basically, there is NOT one way for a coin to be G, VG, F, VF or XF. There are literally dozens, if not hundreds. Photograde is based on the utter fiction that your or my coin can be compared with a single photograph and be assigned a useful grade. And when it comes to the AU-MS range, anyone claiming to be able to is not just incorrect, but a liar as well. To one extent or other, it’s all educated (hopefully) guesses. 

Very nicely said and makes alot of sense. I noticed grading the flying eagle in the 2-3 range was pretty easy and some other coins which should be in the VG to F range were about the same. Attempting to do the same with some Morgans I have which I think are in the mid MS ranges is a completely different story though. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.

Mike

[RWB]

The photographic images in Ruddy's Photograde are awful. They are the opposite of the tonal range and quality needed to accurately represent a coin's surfaces. As mentioned above, verbal descriptions and illustrations for guidance are much better. (Several months before Photograde came out, I was preparing a high quality photo illustrated grading guide -- but had great difficulty getting the necessary range of specimens. Gave it up when Pg came out.)

[Mohawk]

On 9/21/2021 at 9:37 PM, RWB said:

The photographic images in Ruddy's Photograde are awful. They are the opposite of the tonal range and quality needed to accurately represent a coin's surfaces. As mentioned above, verbal descriptions and illustrations for guidance are much better. (Several months before Photograde came out, I was preparing a high quality photo illustrated grading guide -- but had great difficulty getting the necessary range of specimens. Gave it up when Pg came out.)

And you make some very good points here, Roger.  The photos are less than ideal.  I wish you had gone forward with your guide....I think it would have been great and a big improvement on Photograde as it stands.  In thinking about it, Photograde could be pretty dangerous in the hands of someone with less hobby experience, actually, due to its faults.  I've never really thought about it before, but you and Kurt have made some great points here.

[VKurtB]

On 9/21/2021 at 8:37 PM, RWB said:

The photographic images in Ruddy's Photograde are awful. They are the opposite of the tonal range and quality needed to accurately represent a coin's surfaces. As mentioned above, verbal descriptions and illustrations for guidance are much better. (Several months before Photograde came out, I was preparing a high quality photo illustrated grading guide -- but had great difficulty getting the necessary range of specimens. Gave it up when Pg came out.)

Those who can obtain all the necessary specimens or photos for a photographic grading guide, or obtain the rights to such photos that already exist, will always have my admiration. It’s a massive undertaking. This is especially so for rarer pieces. Remember, I am a big critic of things like “guess the grade” threads in general. Photos can go both ways, making coins look better OR worse than they appear in hand, occasionally even in a Stacks Bowers or Heritage catalog, although they are among the best. One way I cherry pick is look for crummy catalog photos and go see those lots in hand a the lot viewing room. You’d be amazed how often the catalog photos “uglify” the actual coins, primarily on the less “pricey” lots. 

[RWB]

I suspect, but this is only a guess, that Jim Ruddy was trying to imitate line illustrations using photos. Possibly on the premise they would be more accurate or clearer in some ways. That could account for the absurdly high contrast. But this approach cannot reveal the consolidated detail in line illustrations. It's of little importance at present with all bowing to the God TPG.

[DWLange]

As someone who bought and graded coins for almost 20 years before there were slabs I found the grading standards presented in PG to be on the loose side by about half an alpha grade. In other words its Fine was equal to VG-F as compared to my own grading and that of the dealers whose grading I and others respected.

Regarding the task of assembling a photographic grading guide, I was faced with that chore fir the three books I wrote as part of the "Complete Guide to" series. I found that few circulated coins ever matched the ideal standards I wanted to depict. Dozens of coins were photographed, and in many instances the obverse and reverse images were paired from two different coins to achieve that ideal..

[RWB]

The OP might be interested to learn that 1858 cents were the most hoarded US coin until 1883-No Cents nickels came around. Many newspapers had punished false stories that the coin contained a small amount of gold and would be bought by the Mint at a premium.

[Mikhail2400]

On 9/22/2021 at 5:12 PM, RWB said:

The OP might be interested to learn that 1858 cents were the most hoarded US coin until 1883-No Cents nickels came around. Many newspapers had punished false stories that the coin contained a small amount of gold and would be bought by the Mint at a premium.

Now that is very interesting and just goes to show that you couldnt trust the news back then any more than you can today. Even if the F.E. 1858s did have that 'small amount of gold' it wouldnt matter very much as my entire hoard of 1858s consists of the one shown above.

I find the Flying Eagle coins to be very interesting. I cant think of any other US coin with an eagle on the obverse side and I also believe they had the shortest production run of the one cent coins. The F.E. coins look to be a great place to start for someone fairly new to this hobby such as myself. All though I wont be buying the 1856 PR64 on Ebay for $23,500 any time in the foreseeable future.

[RWB]

On 9/22/2021 at 5:44 PM, Mikhail2400 said:

....you couldnt trust the news back then any more than you can today.

A century ago small city and local newspapers depended on large city papers for news and routinely republished anything exciting or that would fill an empty space. (Usually short human interest articles called "fillers.")

News organizations are far more accurate and careful than a century ago. You can trust the major newspapers to present the best they can, and editorial comments/opinion is kept separate. Even our local Fox station has excellent local coverage and truthful national materials. All new organizations have certain viewpoints in editorial or "commentator" shows, and it's unfortunate that so many people can't separate obvious lies of truth.

Naturally, there are always errors - responsible media admits to these and makes corrections.

[RWB]

1856 FE cents exist as circulation and proof (or master) coins. The Treasury pushed hard for the small cent and so they issued a lot of these. Like 1909-S VDB cents, and 1893-S dollars, they are readily available and greatly over priced compared to rarity.

[VKurtB]

On 9/22/2021 at 7:29 PM, RWB said:

1856 FE cents exist as circulation and proof (or master) coins. The Treasury pushed hard for the small cent and so they issued a lot of these. Like 1909-S VDB cents, and 1893-S dollars, they are readily available and greatly over priced compared to rarity.

1856 FE’s? I wondered why I was running into way more of them than seemed right.

[DWLange]

A thousand or so 1856 Eagle Cents are not that many, given the popularity of collecting small cents. Comparing it to the 1909-S VDB cent (probably 15,000+ survivors) is not that meaningful in my opinion.

[gmarguli]

On 9/23/2021 at 7:32 AM, DWLange said:

A thousand or so 1856 Eagle Cents are not that many, given the popularity of collecting small cents. Comparing it to the 1909-S VDB cent (probably 15,000+ survivors) is not that meaningful in my opinion.

NGC & PCGS have graded over 30,000 1909-S VDB cents. John Zug supposedly had over 25,000 examples according to QDB.

[DWLange]

I agree that my figure was a bit conservative, because I didn't want to seem too negative about a popular issue.