Official Saint-Gaudens/Gold Coin Price Thread 2 2

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/15/2021 at 9:36 AM, zadok said:

hence all caps....come n get me...

@RWB's insistence on original OED meaning and usage has merit.  But the tide of numismatic history is difficult to overcome and but a footnote to history.  There are plenty of silly designations in use but if I had a choice between owning a coin with absolutely no back- history, as opposed to one once acquired by the globe-trotting VKurtB whom I believe examined every coin, in hand, personally,  I would choose the latter, and the use of any term assuring me he was the former owner would be good enough for me. (You know you're getting old when things that used to irk you, no longer do.  🐓 

[RWB]

On 9/15/2021 at 1:49 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Which coin ?  The MS-69 19098 NM ?

Yes.

[zadok]

On 9/15/2021 at 11:28 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

@RWB's insistence on original OED meaning and usage has merit.  But the tide of numismatic history is difficult to overcome and but a footnote to history.  There are plenty of silly designations in use but if I had a choice between owning a coin with absolutely no back- history, as opposed to one once acquired by the globe-trotting VKurtB whom I believe examined every coin, in hand, personally,  I would choose the latter, and the use of any term assuring me he was the former owner would be good enough for me. (You know you're getting old when things that used to irk you, no longer do.  🐓 

well then u r welcome to bestow upon him an OED merit badge for his scouts sash....fyi both OED n MW acknowledge that pedigree can refer to inanimate lineages...preferences r like opinions, non-factual....no, getting old is when u cant remember what used to irk u....

[RWB]

Pedigree refers only to things which have a lineage of reproduction. Provenance is the correct numismatic term - even for those too lazy to write sentences or capitalize the first word of a pretend-sentence.

[Henri Charriere]

I can see the lines have been drawn [by the progeny] on pedigree vs provenance.

The word I find particularly irksome is "conversate."  A Google reference emphasizes "conversate," as opposed to converse, "is a non-standard form, and widely frowned upon in formal writing." I can live with that.  And the gentleman I refer to as the Great Zadok gets to keep the honorific I have bestowed upon him without unduly upsetting our resident scholar, RWB.  🐓 

[zadok]

On 9/16/2021 at 2:01 PM, RWB said:

Pedigree refers only to things which have a lineage of reproduction. Provenance is the correct numismatic term - even for those too lazy to write sentences or capitalize the first word of a pretend-sentence.

same old garbage....still incorrect as usual....still thinks opinions r facts...living in a world of pretentious omnipotence...guess someone has to do it.....

[Henri Charriere]

UNFATHOMABLE PERSONAL OPINION...

THE FORUM IS BUT A MICROCOSM OF THE WORLD I REGARD AS "PERFECT."  AT ONE EXTREME ARE THE OLD DINOSAURS LIKE ME (70, AS OF 11:20 THIS MORNING.)  AT THE OTHER EXTREME ARE THE YOUNG, IMPRESSIONABLE NUMISMATISTS WHO ARE STILL LEARNING BUT ARE FLEXIBLE BUT NOT SET IN THEIR WAYS.  SPRINKLED ABOUT ARE THE IGNORERS, SPECTATORS, LURKERS, LOITERERS AND YOUNG, IMPRESSIONABLE  FOLKS WHO ARE FLEXIBLE.

IN DEAD CENTER ARE MEMBERS LIKE @Hoghead515 WHO ARE DOWN-TO-EARTH AND AVOID BECOMING EMBROILED IN CONTROVERSY.

IT TAKES ALL TYPES TO MAKE A VIBRANT FORUM.  (I'd be willing to bet most of us have forgetten why @GoldFinger1969 started this thread in the first place: A laser-like focus on "PRICING TRENDS" on gold coins, such as Saints.

BACK ON TRACK!

[zadok]

On 9/17/2021 at 10:35 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

UNFATHOMABLE PERSONAL OPINION...

THE FORUM IS BUT A MICROCOSM OF THE WORLD I REGARD AS "PERFECT."  AT ONE EXTREME ARE THE OLD DINOSAURS LIKE ME (70, AS OF 11:20 THIS MORNING.)  AT THE OTHER EXTREME ARE THE YOUNG, IMPRESSIONABLE NUMISMATISTS WHO ARE STILL LEARNING BUT ARE FLEXIBLE BUT NOT SET IN THEIR WAYS.  SPRINKLED ABOUT ARE THE IGNORERS, SPECTATORS, LURKERS, LOITERERS AND YOUNG, IMPRESSIONABLE  FOLKS WHO ARE FLEXIBLE.

IN DEAD CENTER ARE MEMBERS LIKE @Hoghead515 WHO ARE DOWN-TO-EARTH AND AVOID BECOMING EMBROILED IN CONTROVERSY.

IT TAKES ALL TYPES TO MAKE A VIBRANT FORUM.  (I'd be willing to bet most of us have forgetten why @GoldFinger1969 started this thread in the first place: A laser-like focus on "PRICING TRENDS" on gold coins, such as Saints.

BACK ON TRACK!

...one must be careful standing on the tracks, often there is a train there as well....but a sincere Happy Birthday...i gave u two of my precious capital letters....septuagenarians deserve a break once in a while......enjoy...

[MarkFeld]

On 9/16/2021 at 7:46 PM, zadok said:

same old garbage....still incorrect as usual....still thinks opinions r facts...living in a world of pretentious omnipotence...guess someone has to do it.....

See 2b from Merriam-Webster below.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pedigree

[zadok]

On 9/18/2021 at 7:31 AM, MarkFeld said:

See 2b from Merriam-Webster below.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pedigree

am aware...just as neither dictionaries reference reproduction, perhaps someone has reproduction confused with fabrication....but thanks for the supporting affirmation....

[GoldFinger1969]

Speaking of Saint prices......

I saw that a few MS-67 Saint commons over at GC didn't get bids.  This 1928 got no bids @ $14,500 starting:

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1029487/1928-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-PCGS-MS-67

 

No bids so far for these twin 1924 MS-67's:

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1053937/1924-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-PCGS-MS-67

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1053938/1924-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-PCGS-MS-67

 

This 1928 MS-67 got 1 bid so far @ $13,500.  I usually consider the 1924, 1927, and 1928 to be similarly priced at the MS-65 grade, curious to see what happens to them all at MS-67:

https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1053939/1928-Saint-Gaudens-Gold-Double-Eagle-PCGS-MS-67

[MarkFeld]

On 9/18/2021 at 8:42 PM, zadok said:

am aware...just as neither dictionaries reference reproduction, perhaps someone has reproduction confused with fabrication....but thanks for the supporting affirmation....

Sorry about that. I figured you were aware - it was meant for others who weren’t or who were denying it.😉

[Henri Charriere]

The Great Zadok stated the gold spot price has no effect on stickered St-Gaudens.

I find that hard to believe, stickered or not.

Let's wait awhile until a run-up exceeds the $20,000 resistance level. Owners are, admittedly, a conservative lot and not in it for the short haul.  I say wait and see what happens.   🐓 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/20/2021 at 11:03 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

The Great Zadok stated the gold spot price has no effect on stickered St-Gaudens. I find that hard to believe, stickered or not.

Don't recall that post and in what context Zad said it....but obviously gold price is correlated with any Saint that trades off gold, from pure bullion subsitutes to coins that might sell up to 2-3x the price of gold with a numismatic premium embedded.

I agree that for more expensive coins -- like an MCMVII High Relief -- a $100-$300 move in gold might not affect it at all.  But a $500 price move will.

That's why I am curious to what happens with condition rarity commons I posted above.  One of the 1928's isn't getting any bids, but the other one $500 lower is.

[zadok]

its mostly an issue of a baseline price n any premiums associated with any rarity of the coin...common date $20 gold pcs, liberty n saints, in low grade mint state or circ have consistently been selling at melt value with a slight premium for several years now, as evidenced by realized prices on such forums as ebay n prices that dealers sell them for on the bourse floors at shows...these common coins reflect the changing values of gold basically on a dollar for dollar basis...at a recent unclaimed bank deposit box auction some 28 saints in mint state condition sold for prices that covered the full spectrum...common date lower grade mint state sold at n actually below melt value, reflecting the auctioneers buyers premiums, with several realizing prices at $1700, some averaging $2000 n a couple with prices over $50,000...those at the bottom of the price spectrum slightly affected by the price of gold n those at the highest end not being affected by the price of gold at all....

[Cat Bath]

On 9/20/2021 at 1:14 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Speaking of Saint prices......

I saw that a few MS-67 Saint commons over at GC didn't get bids. 

I wouldn't trade my MS66 coins for those & we're talking a huge jump in money. 

GC's pictures drive me crazy also.

Edited September 21, 2021 by Cat Bath

[Cat Bath]

An interesting one to watch. The last 1920 NGC MS65 did cross to PCGS to make it a pop 3/0 coin.

I don't think this one will but the sale price might get interesting.

https://www.collectorscorner.com/Products/Item.aspx?id=54062382

 

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/20/2021 at 8:53 PM, Cat Bath said:

I wouldn't trade my MS66 coins for those & we're talking a huge jump in money. 

I WANT TO GO ON RECORD AS SAYING I WOULD SELL, WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION, OR BATTING AN EYE, EVERY SINGLE MS-66 🐓 I OWN (ABOUT ONE DOZEN, NOT ALL IN SET REGISTRIES) IF DEEMED NECESSARY BY THE gods of FAIR MARKET VALUE (AS DETERMINED BY AUCTION, OR OTHERWISE) FOR THE PRIVILEGE OF OWNING EITHER OR BOTH OF THE FRENCH 20-FRANC GOLD ROOSTERS a/k/a OR COQ MARIANNE RECENTLY AUTHENTICATED AND CERTIFIED AS MINT-STATE-68 GRADED COINS.   🐓  09/21/2021

Edited September 22, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Spacing

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/20/2021 at 8:53 PM, Cat Bath said:

I wouldn't trade my MS66 coins for those & we're talking a huge jump in money. 

You think the 67's are overgraded or yours are just nicer ?

On 9/20/2021 at 8:53 PM, Cat Bath said:

GC's pictures drive me crazy also.

I find them very good, very large....good pixel quality.  Almost as good as HA's -- you don't think so ?

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/21/2021 at 3:22 AM, Cat Bath said:

An interesting one to watch. The last 1920 NGC MS65 did cross to PCGS to make it a pop 3/0 coin.

I don't think this one will but the sale price might get interesting.

https://www.collectorscorner.com/Products/Item.aspx?id=54062382

 

FYI, lots of good stuff on the 1920 Saints, first ones minted since WW I KO'd production in 1916, in Roger's book.

[Cat Bath]

On 9/21/2021 at 11:46 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You think the 67's are overgraded or yours are just nicer ?

I find them very good, very large....good pixel quality.  Almost as good as HA's -- you don't think so ?

Overgraded, I think, GC images are too shiny to pick up on detail/state of preservation. (at least for me)

Guess the grade on my 24

Below is the 24 for sale 

 

Edited September 23, 2021 by Cat Bath

[Henri Charriere]

On 9/23/2021 at 5:18 AM, Cat Bath said:

Overgraded, I think, GC images are too shiny to pick up on detail/state of preservation. (at least for me)

Guess the grade on my 24

 

Mint State - 66   🐓 

(probably one of the ones you would be reluctant to part with for all the '67's in the world.)

[Cat Bath]

On 9/23/2021 at 5:29 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

Mint State - 66   🐓 

(probably one of the ones you would be reluctant to part with for all the '67's in the world.)

Excellent guess from a non-saint guy.

It's actually a MS65 so there is over $10K dollars between the market grades of the above two coins. ($2,800 -vs- $16,000)

BTW...I removed a MS66+ 1924 saint that I had in the registry and put the MS65 in its place because I liked it more.

Edited September 23, 2021 by Cat Bath

[RWB]

It doesn't matter who takes the photos - if it's through a plastic slab it will be an inferior image. (Plastic distorts images and the slab prevents optimum lighting angles. Compare any of the slabbed DE photos with the PR-58 (aka PR-63) in another thread. The half was tilted are various angles, much as one would to manually examine a coin, and thus revealed obvious wear on high points - hence its false grade.)

[Henri Charriere]

@RWB... "false grade."

Dem's fightin' words!  Or are they?  If there is one thing that sticks out above all others in this business, it's the realization that until the extraterrestrials land and show us a better way to grade coins (to go along with their bestseller, TO SERVE MAN) grading is equivalent to rendering an opinion and, as such, any attempt to win a debate is futile.

I believe those two Morgans posted on the Follow the Lead thread exemplifies this point perfectly.  Two coins with the same date -- and identical grades. (The coins I thought were one and the same, before and after treatment with a secret cleaning formula.) More and more, member, author, research scholar's reasoning processes are making eminent sense. And his conclusions, granted, rendered with authority are logical and inescapable.  

[GoldFinger1969]

Beautiful coin, Cat !!  

It's not the 67 below, right ?  Your coin is the TrueView pic....I'd say a 66+ ?  

Edited September 23, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/23/2021 at 5:45 AM, Cat Bath said:

It's actually a MS65 so there is over $10K dollars between the market grades of the above two coins. ($2,800 -vs- $16,000)

65's are going for $2,800 right now ?  I hadn't focused but thought the market was closer to $2,300.

And I don't think an MS67 unless very special and/or CAC should be at $16,000.  $13,000 give-or-take, IMO.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 9/23/2021 at 9:41 AM, RWB said:

It doesn't matter who takes the photos - if it's through a plastic slab it will be an inferior image. (Plastic distorts images and the slab prevents optimum lighting angles. Compare any of the slabbed DE photos with the PR-58 (aka PR-63) in another thread. The half was tilted are various angles, much as one would to manually examine a coin, and thus revealed obvious wear on high points - hence its false grade.)

I think we just have to live with looking through stuff with plastic.  Nobody is putting expensive coins in people's hands to look at without protection.

I'm sure modern plastics used in slabs transmit light and have improved visual clarity compared to stuff from 30 years ago.  Not perfect, sure...not like looking at the coin without plastic....but distortions are at a minimal and probably not noticed except to those with 20/15 eyesight or better. 

[GoldFinger1969]

1920 & 1923 Saints:  Have NEVER seen the volume of bids for 2 coins on Ebay, let alone Saints.  135 and 95 bids each, with 3 days to go.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/353683387468?hash=item52592c344c:g:U6oAAOSwuWBhR~M1

https://www.ebay.com/itm/124910209188?hash=item1d153a88a4:g:hSoAAOSwEYhhR~De

Granted, lots of the bids were for super-low prices below FMV...but both coins are now approaching or at FMV and with multiple bidders putting in all those bids, we should have a good finish to both.  Not like 2 guys going at with no other participants.

Also....could be the lighting, but each shows decent luster for MS-63.

 

 

Edited September 24, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

[Looks like your dedicated thread was a good idea!]