Top Coin Collectors Questions 1 1

[USAuPzlBxBob]

If you're browsing in the Registry and you can see your "Points and Rank" banner on the top left, if you go below the banner (+ Add Coin, Registry Home, My Registry Profile, etc., etc.) eventually you'll come to Top Coin Collectors.  Click that.

A new page opens and it has the top ranked collectors in descending numerical order, i.e. 1, 2, 3… and this goes on for 222 pages.

Now, at the top of the page NGC states:

NGC Registry participants receive an overall ranking based on the total score of all coins registered in their competitive sets. Coins entered in multiple sets are counted only once. (If a coin has received different point scores, the highest score is counted.) Use the filter below to see rankings for all coins, US coins or world coins.

Of interest here is:  "Coins entered in multiple sets are counted only once."

Please explain this sentence.  Is this currently enforced?

[Ali E.]

Hello and thanks for your interest. Yes, a coin score is counted once.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Ali E.,

To help with coherence on this, I tried an experiment.

I have one Charlotte Gold Dollar.  I made a Charlotte Gold Dollar "date" set and my Points and Rank rose accordingly.  Then I created a Charlotte Gold Complete set — this could include additional Charlotte Gold other than $1G, like $5 gold coins, for example — and my Points and Rank did not change.  I then deleted the Charlotte Gold Dollar "date" set and my Points and Rank remained at the "rose accordingly" elevated level because the Charlotte Gold Complete set was now contributing the elevated level.

So, I get it.  When you select a Collection Heading — like Charlotte Gold, New Orleans Gold — click on those "coin icons" to open the possible collections to create under each Collection Heading, if you create multiple sets within each Collection Heading, the coins you use only boost your Points and Rank once.

However, I noticed that my Charlotte Gold Dollar still has contributed twice, not once, in the overall scheme of things.  It garners Points and Rank in my 1834 — 1933 Gold Type Set and it also garners Points and Rank in my Charlotte Gold Complete set.

So, it appears that as long as coins are in sets that are generated under separate Collection Headings, they can contribute to Points and Rank more than "once."

[Morpheus1967]

On 7/18/2021 at 1:51 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

NGC Registry participants receive an overall ranking based on the total score of all coins registered in their competitive sets.

This is the part I don't understand.  It doesn't count your points for that coin unless its in a competitive set?  

[Coinbuf]

On 7/20/2021 at 8:25 AM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Ali E.,

To help with coherence on this, I tried an experiment.

I have one Charlotte Gold Dollar.  I made a Charlotte Gold Dollar "date" set and my Points and Rank rose accordingly.  Then I created a Charlotte Gold Complete set — this could include additional Charlotte Gold other than $1G, like $5 gold coins, for example — and my Points and Rank did not change.  I then deleted the Charlotte Gold Dollar "date" set and my Points and Rank remained at the "rose accordingly" elevated level because the Charlotte Gold Complete set was now contributing the elevated level.

So, I get it.  When you select a Collection Heading — like Charlotte Gold, New Orleans Gold — click on those "coin icons" to open the possible collections to create under each Collection Heading, if you create multiple sets within each Collection Heading, the coins you use only boost your Points and Rank once.

However, I noticed that my Charlotte Gold Dollar still has contributed twice, not once, in the overall scheme of things.  It garners Points and Rank in my 1834 — 1933 Gold Type Set and it also garners Points and Rank in my Charlotte Gold Complete set.

So, it appears that as long as coins are in sets that are generated under separate Collection Headings, they can contribute to Points and Rank more than "once."

A coin can be used in multiple sets and it will receive points for and contribute to the rank of each individual set.   But for your overall points and collector rank it will only be counted once.  As an example on my profile page I have 372,142 registry points, but if you add up the total points of all my 72 sets it is much higher than the 372k.  I personally don't pay this any attention as it is a meaningless stat, the top spots are held by dealers that are listing registry sets for their gold buying customers.   Gold coins can have huge point totals; well over 10K for a single coin; so this whole collector rank thing is hopelessly skewed and really just useless.

Edited to add:  I just added up the points from my first ten registry sets in my list of 72 sets, just those ten sets add up to 592,928 registry points where my profile only shows a point total of 372,142.   Like I said its a meaningless stat.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Coinbuf

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Coinbuf, I still stand by the results of my "experiment" analysis.  Your analysis of your Top Coin Collector Points and Rank is very difficult to understand, and therefore lends itself to a "meaningless" interpretation, due to the complexity involved.

I have 14 US Gold NGC Registry coins, they reside in 8 different Competitive Sets, and every single one of my coins contributes to my Top Coin Collector Points and Rank… twice.

And to think that just a week ago, I had only one Competitive Set, contributing 37,726 points to my Top Collector Points and Rank, and now — with those same coins — I've increased my Top Coin Collector Points by 30,094, simply by creating 7 more Competitive Sets.

Life is good!

P.S. It's not a meaningless stat — you just don't understand how it's generated, neither do I… positively.  However, given that Ali E. barely replied to my initial post, I have a feeling that a thorough explanation will not be forthcoming from NGC.  Moreover, it is almost an absolute certainty that many coin collectors on the NGC Registry are benefiting from their coins counting toward Total Coin Collector Points and Rank more than "once."

[Coinbuf]

Actually I do understand how its generated, that is how I know its a meaningless stat, I think you are confusing two separate issues as the same.  When you added new sets and incorporated your current coins into those new sets you may have gotten different scores in one (or more) of those new sets for that same current coin depending on how the points are calculated in each set.   Here is an example, your 1891 CC $5 coin in listed in two sets CC Rider & Puzzle Box Gold and also in the Puzzle Box Gold set.   In the CC Rider set the coin is given a score of 11,078 points however in the Puzzle Box set it receives a score of 37,726 points.   The software will automatically pick up the higher of the two point values and use the 37,726 points when calculating the top collector points.   The reason your top collector score went up is that in one or more of the new sets your current coins received a point increase that was greater than it had received in the original set.   I did not try and figure out which coins that is (way too much work), you can if you choose to.

And to prove my point if you add the registry points of each of your 8 sets together you get 99,923 pts, but your top collector point total is 67,820; obviously if every coin was being added to both your individual set and the top collector points every time you started a new set with the same coins these totals would be exactly the same, clear enough.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

This thread dovetails nicely with the 'How are NGC registry points assigned?' thread.

Coinbuf, I'll get back to you on your post, eventually.  (just finished mowing the lawn, and I need to relax… big time)

[Henri Charriere]

Vert tantalizing post, gentlemen.  On the highly-competitive 🐓 sets, it's every man for himself. All are uncommunicative. Case in point: When's the last time you heard a 🐓 set registrant speak up?  Exactly.

[Morpheus1967]

On 7/20/2021 at 8:04 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

This thread dovetails nicely with the 'How are NGC registry points assigned?' thread.

You have a better chance of figuring out how FICO comes up with your credit score.  

[Henri Charriere]

@Morpheus1967  The only members here, or "over there," who should be discussing this are those who have followed a natural progression from type sets comprised of raw coins and carried that to their completion. Next order of business is upgrading.  For those who have taken it a step forward, encapsulation is recommended with upgrading incrementally until you manage to "complete" your set with the highest known certified examples. I have the current and all-time finest sets of 🐓 but I am only as good as the last 1/0 pop coin I have acquired.  And that will be the challenge of any one of many principals who are young, committed, and have both the discipline and endurance to attain the goal.

A true collector doesn't concern himself with points.  He knows what he has; he knows what he needs. What all TPGS need to do is accommodate the collectors' needs and refrain from micro-managing their affairs with intrusive surveys, "suggesting" they start another collection, implore them to change euros into USD and cajole them into making comments about others' collections, creating digital albums, and so on and so forth.

If it is my collection, properly certified and vetted, I should be free to do with it what I want and as I see fit and if I decide to divest myself of it whether by auction, piecemeal or donation, that's my prerogative. Every coin collector who has painstakingly assembled a collection piece by piece knows exactly how I feel. And number of points amassed, which can occur overnite or in an eyeblink is of little or no consequence.   ***

[Morpheus1967]

On 7/20/2021 at 11:12 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Case in point: When's the last time you heard a 🐓 set registrant speak up?  

You do it quite frequently.  So today.  

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Coinbuf, my reply to your last post is:  Please edit your reply to make it grammatically and factually coherent.  (You posted without proofreading?)

 

Moving on… 

NGC is taking notice of this thread.  They've changed the Top Coin Collectors "click" to just Top Collectors. 

I have a feeling NGC will further edit the information of how Competitve Set coins contribute to Top Collectors, but they will leave the Points and Rank methodology "As Is." (Type Sets + "Date" Sets will be allowed to contribute in a "combined" manner, but duplicitous Type Sets, duplicitous "Date" Sets can only use a coin once.)

 

Moving on, even further…

Have you looked at the "top" Top Collectors?

I have no proof — this is just my opinion since I will not do business with any of them — but I have a feeling that many of their coins are coins that are held in their custody for IRAs of clients.  Since the coins are in IRAs, the clients cannot physically possess them, and since they remain in the possession of these "businesses," the businesses join the NGC Registry under the name of someone in the business — like the owner, or chief, whatever — and the businesses then have thousands of coins to auto populate into the NGC Registry, thereby giving them Top Collector Ranks of #1, #2, #3, etc., etc.

Just look at some of the titles of the collections within these "top" Top Collectors and I think you'll quickly agree with my opinion.  This may be part of the reason why you don't see Images or Comments in these Competitive Sets.   What do you guys think?

[Coinbuf]

On 7/21/2021 at 6:54 AM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Coinbuf, my reply to your last post is:  Please edit your reply to make it grammatically and factually coherent.  (You posted without proofreading?)

 

Seriously I take the time to explain the system to you and you reply with that, very uncool.    I'll try and use less big people words for you next time.

Edited July 21, 2021 by Coinbuf

[Henri Charriere]

@USAuPzlBxBob  A correlation between businesses that manage IRA's and Top Collections? @GoldFinger1969 is better positioned to answer your query than I than.  Apparently, I have labored under the misapprehension that IRA's were comprised of generic bullion.  The one comment that I thought interesting, made only once either on this Forum, or elsewhere, suggested the majority of members were dealers -- and obviously they would have the ability to network amongst them and acquire the specific coins they desire for their own collections and Set Registries.  One day, I chose to look into the breadth of a collector whose three collections I was familiar with and was astounded to find his interest in my series was but the tip of the iceberg of an empire that encompassed coins from all over the world.  Could such a one be termed a full-time collector.  I believe so.

[A bit off-tangent but pertinent, nonetheless.  Speaking 🔊 as someone who has more "ignorers" than my favorite fans have followers, I can assure you there is a dynamic afoot that is difficult to put a finger on. There are members who have boldly declared, "I am not here to make friends," or "I'd rather be right than be nice." No big deal.  We all have our good days and bad days. Sometimes it becomes difficult to appreciate the complex relationships forged years before we got here, e.g., the enemy of my friend becomes my enemy by default.  It gets so that you are waking a tightrope, or on eggshells.  I prefer to believe we can all be out of sorts at one time or another, so I don't take things personally. Some things I can do nothing about: being from New York, collecting a foreign series of coin, allegedly being old (70) uninformed and uneducated -- and we haven't even gotten to political leanings and religious persuasion. Oh, and being wordy. Exceedingly wordy!]  

[USAuPzlBxBob]

On 7/20/2021 at 5:26 PM, Coinbuf said:

Actually I do understand how its generated, that is how I know its a meaningless stat, I think you are confusing two separate issues as the same.  When you added new sets and incorporated your current coins into those new sets you may have gotten different scores in one (or more) of those new sets for that same current coin depending on how the points are calculated in each set.   Here is an example, your 1891 CC $5 coin in listed in two sets CC Rider & Puzzle Box Gold and also in the Puzzle Box Gold set.   In the CC Rider set the coin is given a score of 11,078 points however in the Puzzle Box set it receives a score of 37,726 points.   The software will automatically pick up the higher of the two point values and use the 37,726 points when calculating the top collector points.   The reason your top collector score went up is that in one or more of the new sets your current coins received a point increase that was greater than it had received in the original set.   I did not try and figure out which coins that is (way too much work), you can if you choose to.

And to prove my point if you add the registry points of each of your 8 sets together you get 99,923 pts, but your top collector point total is 67,820; obviously if every coin was being added to both your individual set and the top collector points every time you started a new set with the same coins these totals would be exactly the same, clear enough.

Coinbuf, in the interest of being nice, here is your post that I asked you to edit to make it coherent.

You state:

In the CC Rider set the coin is given a score of 11,078 points however in the Puzzle Box set it receives a score of 37,726 points.

There is no truth whatsoever to this statement.  Do you think a simple $5 1891 CC in AU 58 CAC garners 37,726 Points?  Please edit your post to make it coherent.

 

 

[Henri Charriere]

@Coinbuf  I was unaware Set Registries -- if that is what you were discussing, had become so complicated.  Nevertheless, enquiring minds do want to know...

[Revenant]

On 7/21/2021 at 6:54 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

A true collector doesn't concern himself with points.

I rarely find that one-true-way-isms are helpful.

While I don't think it's good to be overly concerned with points and rank or to let that / the registry be more important than enjoying what you collect, I think most people involved in a competition or ranking process like to know how that process works and want that process to be fair and consistent.

That said, I've never found the system or NGCs explanation of it hard to understand. 

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Ok, I made a spreadsheet of My Competitive Sets, and followed the rules of Points given at the top of the Top Coin Collectors page.

For Top Coin Collectors, each coin is counted once, and only once.

I've proved to myself that my coins are counted only once, and not twice, and this spreadsheet really tells the story.

[Henri Charriere]

@USAuPzlBxBob  As one of the few pseudo-numismatists (to borrow from the Great Zadok): still "tolerated" on the Forum -- me, not you -- you have presented a clear, convincing and compelling case and made a believer out of me. As one of the few people lucky enough to be bereft of a reputation to defend, I salute you.   🐓

[Henri Charriere]

On 7/22/2021 at 7:38 AM, Revenant said:

I rarely find that one-true-way-isms are helpful.

While I don't think it's good to be overly concerned with points and rank or to let that / the registry be more important than enjoying what you collect, I think most people involved in a competition or ranking process like to know how that process works and want that process to be fair and consistent.

That said, I've never found the system or NGCs explanation of it hard to understand. 

Fair enough; on balance I believe it to be unfair to ascribe broad generalizations to others. Your point is well-taken.  Sorry 'bout that.