FOOLproof Way To Get Coins Cheaper At Auction
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69 posts in this topic

On 7/15/2021 at 11:27 AM, numisport said:

Snipes do exist but I have never spotted one in Indiana yet :insane:

What about eldritches?

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On 7/14/2021 at 2:55 PM, Jason Abshier said:

There’s also a lot shady shill bidding going on eBay sometimes  if notice prices start climbing high really fast way over price of what something normally sells or worth chances are a eBay sellers has his family member or another made up “fake buyer” account bidding on their own stuff to Jack up the prices (but it’s hard to prove sometimes).

There is no benefit to this. If a seller places fake bids above what the item normally sells for, that fake bid is going to end up winning the auction almost every time. How does that benefit the seller? It's only going to benefit the seller if another bidder placed a bid above normal levels. Considering the seller/shiller is going to have to pay fees on that fake win, that's a pretty lousy risk, hoping for a dumb bidder to come along and overbid. 

I believe that shill bids just replace real bids the vast majority of the time. Item worth $100 is at $50. Shill bid placed at $95. Item sells for $100. Did the shill increase the sale price? Nope, they just replaced the bids of other bidders that would have bid in the $51-$95 range.

Only time shill bidding can really work is if you know the high bidder is willing to pay significantly more than the underbidder. That's a difficult, but not impossible thing to know.

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On 7/15/2021 at 3:33 PM, gmarguli said:

There is no benefit to this. If a seller places fake bids above what the item normally sells for, that fake bid is going to end up winning the auction almost every time. How does that benefit the seller? It's only going to benefit the seller if another bidder placed a bid above normal levels. Considering the seller/shiller is going to have to pay fees on that fake win, that's a pretty lousy risk, hoping for a dumb bidder to come along and overbid. 

I believe that shill bids just replace real bids the vast majority of the time. Item worth $100 is at $50. Shill bid placed at $95. Item sells for $100. Did the shill increase the sale price? Nope, they just replaced the bids of other bidders that would have bid in the $51-$95 range.

Only time shill bidding can really work is if you know the high bidder is willing to pay significantly more than the underbidder. That's a difficult, but not impossible thing to know.

Just a month ago I biding on a coin I jumped on it a little too early it was up on last day of bidding however I was highest bid at $160 . Someone else came by towards last hour of the bidding me and 3 others were already bidding price ran up to $180 if I remember correctly I backed out however this person shows up out of nowhere starts running the price up to $190-$195 , $200 finally the 1st person who started the bidding actually won. It was $220 or something like that.  “this person who ran price up” in last hour had a “buyer rating” of 10 seem odd new buyer would show up and run price up on  something like that also seems like they were only hanging out around this specific seller jacking prices up.

I’m sure it could be family member “hey I’ll pay it and you give me my money back blah blah blah make it legit”. Or the seller will say the transaction never paid through the 2nd highest bidder not interested or something 

Edited by Jason Abshier
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On 7/15/2021 at 2:27 PM, Jason Abshier said:

Just a month ago I biding on a coin I jumped on it a little too early it was up on last day of bidding however I was highest bid at $160 . Someone else came by towards last hour of the bidding me and 3 others were already bidding price ran up to $180 if I remember correctly I backed out however this person shows up out of nowhere starts running the price up to $190-$195 , $200 finally the 1st person who nodded actually won “this person who ran price up” in last hour had a “buyer rating” 10 seems like they were only hanging out around this  specific seller jacking prices up.

I’m sure it could be family member “hey I’ll pay it and you give me my money back blah blah blah make it legit”. Or the seller will say the transaction never paid through the 2nd highest bidder not interested or something 

That could be shill bidding, but probably not. You and others were OK at $180. It sold for $200. Most likely someone else wanted it in that range also.

If an item is at $180, why risk buying it back for an extra $20, when if you buy it back, it costs you $16+ in fees? Yes, the seller can cancel the sale and get their fees back, but eBay watches this very carefully. There is only one rule with eBay and that is eBay always gets its money. Cancel too many sales and they will yank your account.

As always, bid what you're willing to pay and forget about it. 

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On 7/15/2021 at 12:19 PM, Crawtomatic said:

Same.  I've sold on eBay (various items, not just coins) since 2001.  And one thing that hasn't changed, which I'm sure applies in real world auctioning, is that bidders make it emotional even when the item at stake is not worthy.  And by worthy I mean one of those items that only comes to market periodically and has no equal.

At least for eBay, I find that I get attached to the idea of getting something as I wait for days to get to see it and that sometimes makes me want to bid more to not give up on "the dream." But I usually stick to my guns because I know buyers remorse stinks.

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On 7/15/2021 at 2:33 PM, gmarguli said:

Only time shill bidding can really work is if you know the high bidder is willing to pay significantly more than the underbidder. That's a difficult, but not impossible thing to know.

I've seen a couple of times when I strongly suspect someone was shilling to get a few extra bucks out of me on a $30, but there's really no way of knowing for sure. I stopped bidding early on that seller and started sniping at the end and all of a sudden the other bidder didn't come in with 24 hrs to go anymore. (shrug)

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On 7/15/2021 at 2:24 PM, VKurtB said:

What about eldritches?

There's no doubt eldritches reside beneath my deck but they won't show themselves.

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On 7/16/2021 at 2:59 PM, numisport said:

There's no doubt eldritches reside beneath my deck but they won't show themselves.

I heard that! For the first time in my life, I live in a house with something called a “crawl space”, to which I say, “Who’s crawling down there? Not me, man!”

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@VKurtB  The short answer is John Wayne Gacy.  But he's not doing that anymore.

Seriously, in New York City there is a legal distinction between a basement and a cellar.  An attic is an attic and a crawl space may be a utility corridor (a pipe chase) used for wiring, meters, and by escaping prisoners.  :facepalm:

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On 7/16/2021 at 10:07 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@VKurtB  The short answer is John Wayne Gacy.  But he's not doing that anymore.

Seriously, in New York City there is a legal distinction between a basement and a cellar.  An attic is an attic and a crawl space may be a utility corridor (a pipe chase) used for wiring, meters, and by escaping prisoners.  :facepalm:

Having a hard time wrapping my mind around not having a basement. I became accustomed to that storage space.  My house now is on a sloped lot, so the crawl space at the back of the house is waaaaay taller than in the front. The front is just a “get out of the weather” space for neighborhood cats. 

Edited by VKurtB
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But a shill bidder can be used to run up the price you have to pay.  Say the coin is at $50 and $100 is a reasonable price and you have a max bid in on it of $95.  Seller can shill bid it up to the point he becomes the high bidder, and then retract that last bid leaving you as high bidder on a coin that you might have been able to get at a lower price without the shill.  A last moment snipe bid can often get the coin for well less than your max bid because the shill doesn't have a chance to run it up. A max bid placed early can be run up either legitimately or deliberately, a snipe bid can't.  But the snipe does have to beat any other max bids which is why you don't always win low or even win.

Edited by Conder101
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On 7/13/2021 at 12:32 PM, VKurtB said:

None of these unethical behaviors would EVER have occurred to this native Pennsylvanian. Auction ethics is a key part of my state's culture. We are DEADLY SERIOUS about ethical auction behavior. People go to prison for breaking our highly detailed auction laws. Tens of thousands of private homes are sold via public auction (with no realtor involvement whatsoever) in the Keystone State every year. It's why major coin auction firms are not in Pennsylvania and even Legend's Laura Sperber disbanded her partnership with a PA firm. Bidding up your own stuff, aka shill bidding (as S-B and Heritage often do) is a criminal act in Pennsylvania. Maybe that's why most of my ANA show auction winning bids were in Philly in 2012 and 2018. Pittsburgh 2023, here I come!

But then, here I am in Alabama, and I can't even find ONE decent auction of coins.

If Pennsylvania is so great, why did you leave it?

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On 7/18/2021 at 1:38 PM, coinman_23885 said:

If Pennsylvania is so great, why did you leave it?

My wife wanted out. So why do you feel a need to incessantly troll me?

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On 7/18/2021 at 2:38 PM, coinman_23885 said:

If Pennsylvania is so great, why did you leave it?

[Regular viewers know the answer but I believe My Cousin Vinny is entitled to address this personal matter in his own inimitable style if he chooses to.

One thing for certain it had nothing to do with his affinity for tornadoes 🌪, unsportsmanlike driving, the sparce offerings of coins at roadside stands. Oops, beat me to it!

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On 7/18/2021 at 3:01 PM, VKurtB said:

My wife wanted out. So why do you feel a need to incessantly troll me?

Pennsylvania law had nothing to do with this thread nor did the rest of your diatribe. You obviously wanted to discuss it, so I indulged. This is also not the first thread you’ve derailed with your self absorbed tirades, and you have been the one trolling:

1.  You compared at least two other posters to terrorists and violent criminals for disagreeing with you regarding a convicted felon all while bragging about how you basically helped Bill Cosby two meth dealers from the jury box. Pennsylvania law/legal system is pretty darn great huh?

2. You referred to an esteemed forum member as a clown and trashed his academic works (RWB). That particular member has  contributed far more to this hobby than anything you’ve done. So far your claim to fame has been as an administrative assistant to an obscure state legislator purportedly on a subcommittee on Pennsylvania election law. We all saw (regardless of political persuasion) what a cluster Pennsylvania’s election system is.

3. You implied and trashed Sperber and coin auction houses.

4. You made a reference to fondness for white sheets and Alabama juries. The insinuation is obvious. It’s nice to see you slander your neighbors on coin forums.

5.  You were  already booted from one other coin forum for your chicanery. It takes a lot to anger Peter (Coin Talk), but even he showed you the boot.

6. You plainly violate forum rules by being political. 

So I’m the one who is trolling? 👌

 

Edited by coinman_23885
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On 7/18/2021 at 2:21 PM, coinman_23885 said:

Pennsylvania law had nothing to do with this thread nor did the rest of your diatribe. You obviously wanted to discuss it, so I indulged. This is also not the first thread you’ve derailed with your self absorbed tirades, and you have been the one trolling:

1.  You compared at least two other posters to terrorists and violent criminals for disagreeing with you regarding a convicted felon all while bragging about how you basically helped Bill Cosby two meth dealers from the jury box. Pennsylvania law/legal system is pretty darn great huh?

2. You referred to an esteemed forum member as a clown and trashed his academic works (RWB). That particular member has  contributed far more to this hobby than anything you’ve done. So far your claim to fame has been as an administrative assistant to an obscure state legislator purportedly on a subcommittee on Pennsylvania election law. We all saw (regardless of political persuasion) what a cluster Pennsylvania’s election system is.

3. You implied and trashed Sperber and coin auction houses.

4. You made a reference to fondness for white sheets and Alabama juries. The insinuation is obvious. It’s nice to see you slander your neighbors on coin forums.

5.  You were  already booted from one other coin forum for your chicanery. It takes a lot to anger Peter (Coin Talk), but even he showed you the boot.

6. You plainly violate forum rules by being political. 

So I’m the one who is trolling? 👌

 

I QUOTED the government head counsel in the Langbord case as describing RWB as a “clown and an embarrassment”. I happen to agree. My first encounter with RWB was regarding the Langbord case. But I have had a few interactions with him since. I believe counsel underestimated the problem. His comments regarding cats alone are enough to make me find him repulsive, and I do. My wife rescues cats.

My jury service was in the precise same federal courtroom as the Langbord case, many years prior, and I convinced 11 other jurors the government had no case except on one charge.  That’s the way the jury system is SUPPOSED TO WORK. Most people need to be instructed on the meaning of “reasonable doubt”. The charge from former Lt. Gov. Raymond Broderick (the trial judge) made CLEAR the conspiracy charges needed to fall, and that led to the acquittals.

I consider two federal judges in the Eastern District of PA, and one in the Western, to be personal friends, and I served multiple years (8 to be exact) on the staff of the Chairman of the Pennsylvania House of Representatives JUDICIARY COMMITTEE. I have personally WRITTEN portions of at least 20 amendments to Title 18, the Pennsylvania Crimes Code.

i personally LITIGATE Election Code cases to disqualify candidates from ballots.

Oh, and Bill Cosby should never have been TRIED in the first instance, much less convicted. Trying him was a political stunt in a Montgomery County D.A. election campaign. 
 

Oh yes, and the ethics of the way virtually ALL major coin auction houses conduct themselves is scandalous at least, and quasi-criminal at most. It IS criminal in my old home state. No. Seller. May. Shill. Bid. EVER!

Edited by VKurtB
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On 7/18/2021 at 2:03 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[Regular viewers know the answer but I believe My Cousin Vinny is entitled to address this personal matter in his own inimitable style if he chooses to.

One thing for certain it had nothing to do with his affinity for tornadoes 🌪, unsportsmanlike driving, the sparce offerings of coins at roadside stands. Oops, beat me to it!

Quintus,

The straight up truth is my wife was miserable in Pennsylvania. She was as a fish out of water. She flat out hated the local culture. I love it and I hate the Alabama local culture with every fiber of my being. We have a big problem. I’m financially stuck here for the foreseeable. I live for those occasions when I can travel now. 

Edited by VKurtB
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@coinman_23885

Well. There now, feel better?  

On 7/18/2021 at 5:43 PM, VKurtB said:

Quintus,

The straight it truth is my wife was miserable in Pennsylvania. She was as a fish out of water. She flat out hated the local culture. I love it and I hate the Alabama local culture with every fiber of my being. We have a big problem. I’m financially stuck here for the foreseeable. I live for those occasions when I can travel now. 

I understand.

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On 7/18/2021 at 4:50 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

@coinman_23885

Well. There now, feel better?  

I understand.

The other thing is my cardiologist told me, “stay in cold weather and you WILL die soon.” Ascending aortic aneurism. No snow shoveling. 

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[No wonder I was criticized by @MAULEMALL for my inadequate trolling skills. Here's a member who lurked quietly in the shadows and came prepared, spoiling for a fight with a six-count indictment, steel-toed jack 👢boots, a taser, mace, sap, bullet-proof vest and a steel helmet with shatterproof visor -- and states with a straight face, the accouterments were inadvertent accessories. Yeah, right.]

On 7/18/2021 at 5:54 PM, VKurtB said:

The other thing is my cardiologist told me, “stay in cold weather and you WILL die soon.” Ascending aortic aneurism. No snow shoveling. 

I have had one now for two years. I believe 4.2 cms. with 5.5 and higher being the area of concern. My atrial fibrillation was either "frozen" or "burned" out during a procedure. With this Delta variant now gaining ground, I don't believe we will be dispensing with masks anytime soon.  In fact, those of us who have already been vaccinated, may need booster shots. We both have to take it easy.  🐓

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On 7/18/2021 at 5:11 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

[No wonder I was criticized by @MAULEMALL for my inadequate trolling skills. Here's a member who lurked quietly in the shadows and came prepared, spoiling for a fight with a six-count indictment, steel-toed jack 👢boots, a taser, mace, sap, bullet-proof vest and a steel helmet with shatterproof visor -- and states with a straight face, the accouterments were inadvertent accessories. Yeah, right.]

I have had one now for two years. I believe 4.2 cms. with 5.5 and higher being the area of concern. My atrial fibrillation was either "frozen" or "burned" out during a procedure. With this Delta variant now gaining ground, I don't believe we will be dispensing with masks anytime soon.  In fact, those of us who have already been vaccinated, may need booster shots. We both have to take it easy.  🐓

I’m right at 5.5 cm.

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@VKurtB since you have experience in PA actions , I never been to one yet someday I do want to go to one I was once told in order for me to do any live bidding at Pa auction I must obtain an Auctioneer license ? I know few dealers who bought some nice coins at estate auctions at great prices. 

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On 7/18/2021 at 5:43 PM, VKurtB said:

The straight up truth is my wife was miserable in Pennsylvania.

I can understand that.  I just came back after 30 years in Alaska and things were okay for the first year but...  This isn't the same town I grew up in and you can't hold a candle to Alaska.  Every day there is an adventure.  I'm wondering what the future will hold.

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On 7/18/2021 at 5:38 PM, Jason Abshier said:

@VKurtB since you have experience in PA actions , I never been to one yet someday I do want to go to one I was once told in order for me to do any live bidding at Pa auction I must obtain an Auctioneer license ? I know few dealers who bought some nice coins at estate auctions at great prices. 

No, in order to SELL at auction you either need a Pennsylvania license or partner with a firm that does. Sperber formerly partnered with Morphy Auctions of Denver, PA. She didn’t like to operate under the PA / Morphy rules, so she left the partnership. Anyone may BUY at auction, even by phone or net. Most auctioneers offer one or the other.

Edited by VKurtB
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On 7/18/2021 at 4:53 PM, VKurtB said:

I QUOTED the government head counsel in the Langbord case as describing RWB as a “clown and an embarrassment”. I happen to agree. My first encounter with RWB was regarding the Langbord case. But I have had a few interactions with him since. I believe counsel underestimated the problem. His comments regarding cats alone are enough to make me find him repulsive, and I do. My wife rescues cats.

The post was immaterial to the subject of that particular thread and was intended to harass a member that you don’t like largely because of his opinions with regards to counterfeiting laws. Your attempts to bully and ridicule forum members won’t get you very far.

On 7/18/2021 at 4:53 PM, VKurtB said:

My jury service was in the precise same federal courtroom as the Langbord case, many years prior, and I convinced 11 other jurors the government had no case except on one charge.  That’s the way the jury system is SUPPOSED TO WORK. Most people need to be instructed on the meaning of “reasonable doubt”. The charge from former Lt. Gov. Raymond Broderick (the trial judge) made CLEAR the conspiracy charges needed to fall, and that led to the acquittals.

Then why the mention of jury nullification in the same paragraph or even the same post? Don’t play coy.

On 7/18/2021 at 4:53 PM, VKurtB said:

I consider two federal judges in the Eastern District of PA, and one in the Western, to be personal friends,

For some one with “litigation” experience, you certainly lose focus and don’t seem to understand what is germane and what is wholly irrelevant. Your “friend” list or who you might brown nose are irrelevant to the thread.

On 7/18/2021 at 4:53 PM, VKurtB said:

 

and I served multiple years (8 to be exact) on the staff of the Chairman of the Pennsylvania House of Representatives JUDICIARY COMMITTEE. I have personally WRITTEN portions of at least 20 amendments to Title 18, the Pennsylvania Crimes Code.

i personally LITIGATE Election Code cases to disqualify candidates from ballots.

The latter sounds perilously close to unauthorized practice of law especially if you are purportedly acting in a governmental or quasi governmental capacity. That is unless by “litigate” you basically mean administrative work like typing pleadings and cover letters to the clerk of court for the lawyers who are doing the real litigation. I don’t think most of us would consider that litigation.

The other possibility is pro se lawsuits. Except for narrow challenges in the district where you would reside, you would lack standing to challenge the majority of candidates state wise for other districts.  In other words, litigation potential would likely be quite limited.

On 7/18/2021 at 4:53 PM, VKurtB said:

Oh yes, and the ethics of the way virtually ALL major coin auction houses conduct themselves is scandalous at least, and quasi-criminal at most. It IS criminal in my old home state. No. Seller. May. Shill. Bid. EVER!

There you go again. Objection; relevance? How do Legend, Stacks-Bowers, or Heritage and their alleged selling practices relate to a dealer conducting a  private sale on eBay complaining about a bidder trying to renegotiate a sale?

Edited by coinman_23885
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On 7/18/2021 at 6:19 PM, VKurtB said:

I’m right at 5.5 cm.

I am sorry to hear that.  I forbid 🚫 you to do extensive over-the-road travel and kindly notify the principals of the Royal Mint that it is with heavy heart ❤ that you must relinquish your duties at future trials of the pyck.

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On 7/18/2021 at 7:47 PM, coinman_23885 said:

The post was immaterial to the subject of that particular thread and was intended to harass a member that you don’t like largely because of his opinions with regards to counterfeiting laws. Your attempts to bully and ridicule forum members won’t get you very far.

Then why the mention of jury nullification in the same paragraph or even the same post? Don’t play coy.

For some one with “litigation” experience, you certainly lose focus and don’t seem to understand what is germane and what is wholly irrelevant. Your “friend” list or who you might brown nose are irrelevant to the thread.

The latter sounds perilously close to unauthorized practice of law especially if you are purportedly acting in a governmental or quasi governmental capacity. That is unless by “litigate” you basically mean administrative work like typing pleadings and cover letters to the clerk of court for the lawyers who are doing the real litigation. I don’t think most of us would consider that litigation.

The other possibility is pro se lawsuits. Except for narrow challenges in the district where you would reside, you would lack standing to challenge the majority of candidates state wise for other districts.  In other words, litigation potential would likely be quite limited.

There you go again. Objection; relevance? How do Legend, Stacks-Bowers, or Heritage and their alleged selling practices relate to a dealer conducting a  private sale on eBay complaining about a bidder trying to renegotiate a sale?

When I say “litigate”, I mean I brief and argue the case myself, sans counsel. I have done it at least 20 times, including once before Pennsylvania’s highest court, in the ONLY subject matter for which the Supreme Court has original jurisdiction - redistricting of the State Legislature. My boss was the victim of an improper application of the Voting Rights Act by the Redistricting Commission. He filed against the plan, and so did I, pro se.

Now, re: jury nullification, I believe it is not only the RIGHT, but indeed the OBLIGATION of every juror in every trial to find “Not Guilty” when a charge in a statute is unjust. It is the only pushback the citizenry has against the abuse by the prosecutorial section of the Executive Branch and their co-conspirators, the Judiciary. And I do indeed encourage EVERYBODY to use that power.

Edited by VKurtB
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On 7/18/2021 at 7:53 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I am sorry to hear that.  I forbid 🚫 you to do extensive over-the-road travel and kindly notify the principals of the Royal Mint that it is with heavy heart ❤ that you must relinquish your duties at future trials of the pyck.

I can’t seem to get the time of year for the Trial of the Pyx to work for me. Too many conflicts. I’d love to go.

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