PVC in NGC holder MS-64 1921 Morgan ? 1 1

[MAULEMALL]

4 hours ago, south roy said:

Good I’m sick of hearing your negativity 🤯

Hmm... confused negativity with honesty ...

[Henri Charriere]

44 minutes ago, MAULEMALL said:

Hmm... confused negativity with honesty ...

(No accountability.  No apology.  No need to go further than, "Hmm." Sad.)

[Iku]

Hello my American friends I slushed it with Acetone.

Results here.

Coins edges were pretty badly harmed with PVC. See photos. Edges were horrible green when I removed it from NGC holder.

After Acetone edges have a brown rusty copper toning ?

[Coinbuf]

Just a suggestion, I would soak it again in fresh acetone it looks like there is still some on the surface and on the edges.   Acetone will not harm silver even if left to soak for an hour, one more bath will not hurt just to be sure you have it all off.   You can also use a Q-tip dipped into acetone and roll (not wipe) it over the surface and edges, that will sometimes help to dislodge any stubborn bits of the PVC.

[dleonard-3]

The coin looks nice and relatively mark free for a 64.  I would be proud to own it.  But, you are right to be concerned with the contamination and it's possible future effects on the coin.

[Henri Charriere]

My only concern is while the coin's visuals have been improved, the coin for all intents and purposes is raw, its integrity compromised and no longer certified due to decapsulation.

The OP can keep it, sell it or re-submit it for recertification as a raw coin, or plead guilty with an explanation: I am the owner, this is why I removed it, here is the former slab and certification number, all I ask is that its former grade be affirmed and it be re-holdered.  

Our resident experts here on the Forum can assist you with the most practical, cost-effective solution considering the coin's current Fair Market Value.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Quintus Arrius
Misspelling

[gmarguli]

 

On 7/5/2021 at 8:48 AM, Alex in PA. said:

Did you contact Customer Service?  NO!  Did you take it to an Authorized NGC Dealer?  NO!  Just another NGC Baad post.   

On 7/5/2021 at 11:18 AM, MarkFeld said:

Under the circumstances, what good do you think that would have done?

It's been a very long time since I bothered to send a coin back to a TPG for review, but in the past both NGC & PCGS have removed contaminates on coins for free. 

Only once was I told that I'd have to use their conservation service to remove PVC. When I pointed out that I'd just allow the PVC to etch the surfaces and then the TPG could buy it back in a few years under their grade review, they magically decided to do it for free. 

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by gmarguli

[Alex in PA.]

19 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

Only once was I told that I'd have to use their conservation service

I used NCS Conservation Services (found on Block 5 of the NGC Submission Form) on three separate occasions all of which were Carson City gold pieces ($20, $20, $5).  Not only was I completely happy with the work done one $20 CC went up 1 grade.  What I like is NCS is a system that will tell you 1.  If you need conservation or 2. If conservation will help or not.  As with the CC $5.00 it did not require conservation and all that it cost me was postage.   That is my experience and I used NCS before and I will again.  If the OP had bothered to contact NGC Customer Service here in the USA or in the UK I'm sure they would have informed him/her of this service.

[Henri Charriere]

Members may recall @Insider urged me to send my encapsulated  🐓 back to NGC for removal of a prominent thumbprint emblazoned across one side saying this should have been done routinely. I haven't due to an irrational belief it was left there by someone important, on the calibre of the late Albert Spaggiari who tunneled his way thru the sewers of Nice, France 🇫🇷 to loot 400 safe deposit boxes in the Société Generale bank of up to 100 million francs on Bastille Day weekend 1976 -- leaving a message spray-painted on the vault in French, reading: "without weapons, or hatred or violence." 

Thank you NGC for your disinclination to destroy what may very well be crime scene evidence.

[Iku]

Even when somewhat near to my location UK=Great Britain is not part of EU Europe since start of 2021 see "Brexit".

I will have to pay customs and such difficulties if planning to contact GB's NGC. ( It would be pretty much same as USA.)

I live in: Sweden or Finland If I ever was going to use a grading service closest within Europe boarders would be PCGS Paris France.

Oh and just leaving the coin into 100% Acetone did not do nothing. (I used two(2) 30 minutes baths.)

- Green PVC residue splatter started to come off only after trying gently with acetoned cotton swaps.

- Coin's edges look very bad it will not be a good candidate for Edge View holders. Wonder how many MS-holdered coins are there that have visually impaired edges ?

- I think this coin is max. MS-63 not nowhere near MS-64 compared to my other graded coins. Because of those edges it might be even Details Corrosion. So NGC does not take edges in to account when grading ?

Edited July 7, 2021 by Iku

[MarkFeld]

4 hours ago, Iku said:

Even when somewhat near to my location UK=Great Britain is not part of EU Europe since start of 2021 see "Brexit".

I will have to pay customs and such difficulties if planning to contact GB's NGC. ( It would be pretty much same as USA.)

I live in: Sweden or Finland If I ever was going to use a grading service closest within Europe boarders would be PCGS Paris France.

Oh and just leaving the coin into 100% Acetone did not do nothing. (I used two(2) 30 minutes baths.)

- Green PVC residue splatter started to come off only after trying gently with acetoned cotton swaps.

- Coin's edges look very bad it will not be a good candidate for Edge View holders. Wonder how many MS-holdered coins are there that have visually impaired edges ?

- I think this coin is max. MS-63 not nowhere near MS-64 compared to my other graded coins. Because of those edges it might be even Details Corrosion. So NGC does not take edges in to account when grading ?

As was already posted by someone else, the coin probably did not look like that at the time it was graded and encapsulated.

[MarkFeld]

10 hours ago, gmarguli said:

 

It's been a very long time since I bothered to send a coin back to a TPG for review, but in the past both NGC & PCGS have removed contaminates on coins for free. 

Only once was I told that I'd have to use their conservation service to remove PVC. When I pointed out that I'd just allow the PVC to etch the surfaces and then the TPG could buy it back in a few years under their grade review, they magically decided to do it for free. 

 

Last I heard, as of a long time ago, it was no longer free to have contaminants removed. I hope I heard wrong.

[Iku]

"the coin probably did not look like that at the time it was graded".

Lesson learned I look now extra carefully if PVC is present in holdered coins and bath them in pure acetone even if tiny spots of green is found.

Real bummer to find out that parts of coin's edges are so corroded due to PVC that color changed to brown.

[Just Bob]

I am still wondering: what was the reason you did not send the coin back to the seller and have them refund your money? 

[gmarguli]

On 7/6/2021 at 8:19 AM, Iku said:

 

3 hours ago, Iku said:

Real bummer to find out that parts of coin's edges are so corroded due to PVC that color changed to brown.

This looks like dip residue. It'll likely come off with a quick dip. 

[Henri Charriere]

7 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

Last I heard, as of a long time ago, it was no longer free to have contaminants removed. I hope I heard wrong.

@Insider as I recall, indicated that the fingerprint on my [MS-66 coin, purchased thru a Florida dealer] should have been removed prior to encapsulation, and I got the overall sense that it would be done free of additional fee. I never pursued the option. Time is money and considering the ever escalating volume of submissions, I believe that courtesy was abandoned at some point.)

[numisport]

How did you get that slab open without destroying it ? Coin looks like no better than MS 62 to me. Something funny about this.

[Henri Charriere]

2 hours ago, numisport said:

How did you get that slab open without destroying it ? 

That's the $64 M question. My Cousin Vinny stated crack-outs are endemic at conventions and the standard method allegedly used nothing less than primitive.. I thought @MarkFeld would find the subject offensive so I made a discreet inquiry to @Just Bob specifically requesting the name of the specific tool used to accomplish extraction and was politely rebuffed.

Nobody on the Forum is going to pay heed to speculation from a mere chiffonnier regarding the matter of before and after grading so kudos to @numisport for summoning the courage to share his observation of the obvious: what did our Scandinavian member use to accomplish the near impossible task of disassembling an encapsulation, cleanly and with no apparent damage?  Enquiring minds want to know!

[Henri Charriere]

6 hours ago, Just Bob said:

I am still wondering: what was the reason you did not send the coin back to the seller and have them refund your money? 

(Evidently, the passage of time.)

[VKurtB]

Question: Have any rodents and/or monkeys expired in close proximity to the OP's coin? Have Arthur Hill or James Olson lookalikes been spotted nearby? I ask because the PVC looks like Andromeda Strain to me.

[Iku]

I bought this slabbed coin from European market Germany seller he shipped it to Finland. It costs too much to ship it back so it is not worth to do that and I don't want to burden the coins seller some are kind of sensitive very +60 old men you know. Also I not a returning kind of buyer I really never return anything. I have multiple Morgans myself so I know what to expect from a good problem free MS-64. Right away I spotted something green on coin's surface.

How did you get that slab open without destroying it ? 

- Plain and simple hammering NGC holder's edges with imported normal size Estwing hammer to a home made 40kg iron base.

- I was really suprised how easily it opened and how undamaged+clear seams are. I can literally [ if I was up to no good which I'm not. Not planning to reuse this holder again. ] I could super glue it together and put a bad grade 1921 in it and sell onward. That is how good the opened holder still looks like.

- I have come to a conclusion that there must be currently some opened-switched-resealed coins circulating right now. If I a first timer can open a holder so easily and unnoticeable someone else will be too. So be extra careful on resealed holders.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Iku

[numisport]

17 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

That's the $64 M question. My Cousin Vinny stated crack-outs are endemic at conventions and the standard method allegedly used nothing less than primitive.. I thought @MarkFeld would find the subject offensive so I made a discreet inquiry to @Just Bob specifically requesting the name of the specific tool used to accomplish extraction and was politely rebuffed.

Nobody on the Forum is going to pay heed to speculation from a mere chiffonnier regarding the matter of before and after grading so kudos to @numisport for summoning the courage to share his observation of the obvious: what did our Scandinavian member use to accomplish the near impossible task of disassembling an encapsulation, cleanly and with no apparent damage?  Enquiring minds want to know!

My point was that [from the image] in the square holder that was not an MS 64 coin. I have cracked a few AU 58's for my Peace Dollar Dansco set so I am somewhat familiar with the process. My method is certainly not condoned but generally both TPG's slabs are so well sealed sonically that seams cannot be separated without leaving a jagged edge. 

[Barberian]

On 7/5/2021 at 11:48 AM, Alex in PA. said:

Did you contact Customer Service?  NO!  Did you take it to an Authorized NGC Dealer?  NO!  Just another NGC Baad post.   

 

On 7/5/2021 at 11:38 AM, Iku said:

Hello

1539241-044

PVC green residue in NGC holder MS-64 1921 Morgan ?

Disappointed. Heart almost failing literally. I can't trust NGC anymore. Sad.

The holder looks like after 2004 holder it is not old.

And I have a 66-S w/motto seated half slathered in brown PVC that's holdered in a top TPG competitor's holder.  Another with a bright emerald "crystal" on the reverse shield as if it were jewelry.  Sometimes these issues aren't spotted in grading.  Talk to NGC and have them evaluate the problem.

[Alex in PA.]

3 hours ago, Barberian said:

Talk to NGC and have them evaluate the problem.

100% agree.  Sometimes it's better to go to the TPG first then, if you cannot resolve the issue, attempt other means and ways.

[Iku]

14 hours ago, numisport said:

My point was that [from the image] in the square holder that was not an MS 64 coin. I have cracked a few AU 58's for my Peace Dollar Dansco set so I am somewhat familiar with the process. My method is certainly not condoned but generally both TPG's slabs are so well sealed sonically that seams cannot be separated without leaving a jagged edge. 

Yes you are right it was overgraded in NGC holder it is not MS-64. Overgraded and PVCd. I could not let it be in that misleading holder therefore. It just would have gone to another collector. Who naively might not been as accurate and would have happily thought it as a problem free "MS-64".

It is maximum MS-63 but I don't think it is a MS-62.

I have some MS-62's and they have deep bag marks and such.

Sending this to be holdered would cost me about: 30-40euros+Authorized seller's submission fee+Shipping costs+(24% customs)= Total 50-70e which is about the same what I paid for in the 1st place. So it is a no go.

Edited July 9, 2021 by Iku

[Henri Charriere]

8 hours ago, Iku said:

Sending this to be holdered would cost me about: 30-40euros+Authorized seller's submission fee+Shipping costs+(24% customs)= Total 50-70e which is about the same what I paid for in the 1st place. So it is a no go.

Don't be discouraged.  We have all gone thru this one time or another.

[numisport]

9 hours ago, Iku said:

Yes you are right it was overgraded in NGC holder it is not MS-64. Overgraded and PVCd. I could not let it be in that misleading holder therefore. It just would have gone to another collector. Who naively might not been as accurate and would have happily thought it as a problem free "MS-64".

It is maximum MS-63 but I don't think it is a MS-62.

I have some MS-62's and they have deep bag marks and such.

Sending this to be holdered would cost me about: 30-40euros+Authorized seller's submission fee+Shipping costs+(24% customs)= Total 50-70e which is about the same what I paid for in the 1st place. So it is a no go.

Since you never showed the obverse slab with coin number before it was cracked out no one can be sure your coin is that NGC MS 64 you say it was. 

[Hoghead515]

On 7/8/2021 at 9:40 AM, numisport said:

My point was that [from the image] in the square holder that was not an MS 64 coin. I have cracked a few AU 58's for my Peace Dollar Dansco set so I am somewhat familiar with the process. My method is certainly not condoned but generally both TPG's slabs are so well sealed sonically that seams cannot be separated without leaving a jagged edge. 

That makes me feel better about the quarter I posted. There's no jagged edges around it. Looks good except the one spot. Which I think it's been dropped and hit something causing the spot on it. 

[MarkFeld]

47 minutes ago, numisport said:

Since you never showed the obverse slab with coin number before it was cracked out no one can be sure your coin is that NGC MS 64 you say it was. 

Whether you agree with his thinking or actions, he hasn’t given any indication that he’s been other than honest.

[numisport]

18 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

Whether you agree with his thinking or actions, he hasn’t given any indication that he’s been other than honest.

Certainly the distrust in NGC could be an honest reaction but once cracked out nobody knows if that coin was ever in any NGC holder