1921 PEACE, please opine, pics included 0

[dollarfan]

hello again all,  was digging and found this which i purchased a couple years ago when i was getting into Peace dollars.  i paid 250 dollars and at the time didnt realize the history of the PCI slab (company).  It is not very evident in the pictures but the entire coin has a gold like shading to it (almost like a light nicotine stain look)  I find the gold color very unpleasing.  Is this color just the start of retoning after being dipped?  After i looked at this closely to see if it had been cleaned or not and would perhaps straight grade at NGC i was riding the fence.  it has some hairlines? but so do all the other 1921 peace dollars i have in 62 and 63 and 64.  please take a look and see what you think.  @VKurtB if you read this I will send this coin to you if you think the golden color can be removed.  Please advise, sorry for rambling.

[Coinbuf]

Your photos do seem to indicate some possible patches of hairlines, very noticeable around the date and above the crown in the full coin photo.  How many numbers in the certification number on the back of the slab, 10 or 14?  The tabaco coloring may have been from a dip that was not fully neutralized or it may be not, difficult to determine the depth of the tone in the photos.

[dollarfan]

13 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

Your photos do seem to indicate some possible patches of hairlines, very noticeable around the date and above the crown in the full coin photo.  How many numbers in the certification number on the back of the slab, 10 or 14?  The tabaco coloring may have been from a dip that was not fully neutralized or it may be not, difficult to determine the depth of the tone in the photos.

hello coinbuf  the number is 6149244018  so 10 digits,  yeah the color is weird as it seems just like "a golden tint"  not in any particular place.  these have been going thru the roof so im wondering if i should just crack and send and keep my fingers crossed.  i am thinking the golden cast is from an improperly/incomplete rinse after a dip.  it still has luster and doesnt have that overdipped look we all know but im pretty sure it crossed paths with a mad scientist and a jug of EZEST in its past

[Coinbuf]

The color is the easiest to remedy but the areas that I have circled below are what would concern me about cracking the coin out of the current holder.   It may just be the lighting/angle and such but both of these spots look odd, the lower area around the date looks very much like hairlines/cleaning/thumbed as the lines do not go under the numbers and the numbers have a halo around them where the patch comes up to them.   Again that may just be a lighting affect but maybe not.

The ten digit holders were from the earlier years after PCI bought out Hallmark and many considered PCI to be a fairly consistent and conservative company during that time.  Of course there are always outliers during any grading timeframe/ownership, when the cert numbers went to 14 digits is when that reputation began to slide in the mind of many in the market.  Its your call but I think in your situation I would sell this as is and find a replacement that you like better as opposed to cracking and submitting.   Far less risk for you and there is a chance to realize a profit on the sale as there are collectors that do look for the old slabs.

Best of luck with what ever you decide to do.

Edited June 13, 2021 by Coinbuf

[dollarfan]

1 hour ago, Coinbuf said:

The color is the easiest to remedy but the areas that I have circled below are what would concern me about cracking the coin out of the current holder.   It may just be the lighting/angle and such but both of these spots look odd, the lower area around the date looks very much like hairlines/cleaning/thumbed as the lines do not go under the numbers and the numbers have a halo around them where the patch comes up to them.   Again that may just be a lighting affect but maybe not.

The ten digit holders were from the earlier years after PCI bought out Hallmark and many considered PCI to be a fairly consistent and conservative company during that time.  Of course there are always outliers during any grading timeframe/ownership, when the cert numbers went to 14 digits is when that reputation began to slide in the mind of many in the market.  Its your call but I think in your situation I would sell this as is and find a replacement that you like better as opposed to cracking and submitting.   Far less risk for you and there is a chance to realize a profit on the sale as there are collectors that do look for the old slabs.

Best of luck with what ever you decide to do.

 

[dollarfan]

wow,  thanks to you coinbuf my pics are getting much better !!

[VKurtB]

I would be loathe to touch this. Even my favorite “kinder gentler dip”, which would take this blast white, would create something far less natural looking. This is a 62 because of some pretty harsh contact marks.

Edited June 13, 2021 by VKurtB

[dollarfan]

24 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

I would be loathe to touch this. Even my favorite “kinder gentler dip”, which would take this blast white, would create something far less natural looking. This is a 62 because of some pretty harsh contact marks.

thanks for the reply VkurtB!  yes she has taken some hits.  so far coinbuf's suggestion of just keeping it in its current holder and selling it as grade unknown.  does she appear to be cleaned?  i am feeling like 62 is an accurate grade im just not sure about the cleaned part.  and she has a flaaaaaaaat soft strike.     what to do?

[VKurtB]

7 minutes ago, dollarfan said:

thanks for the reply VkurtB!  yes she has taken some hits.  so far coinbuf's suggestion of just keeping it in its current holder and selling it as grade unknown.  does she appear to be cleaned?  i am feeling like 62 is an accurate grade im just not sure about the cleaned part.  and she has a flaaaaaaaat soft strike.     what to do?

I don’t see a cleaning. Your last sentence is more brilliant than you know. It is PRECISELY a plethora of soft strikes that led the mint to abandon the high relief. The metal was insufficiently filling the deepest die recesses. That’s why the change in 1922 was made. The only other alternative would have been to increase striking pressure, thereby reducing productivity. That was not a realistic alternative because they were striking in response to the requirements of the Pittman Act.

[RWB]

17 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

The only other alternative would have been to increase striking pressure, thereby reducing productivity. That was not a realistic alternative because they were striking in response to the requirements of the Pittman Act.

Not quite ---- The first day's production was made at approx 150 T/sq in, which was the upper stress limit for die steel of that era. George Morgan complained that dies cracked, broke and exploded with such frequency that they got "tired of replacing dies." The next day, the pressure was reduced to about 130 tons.

Neither 150 nor 130 was sufficient to bring up all the design, but the 1st day's coins are noticeably better detailed than the remaining 900,000. (See Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921 for details.)

Coin detail has nothing to do with the Pittman Act.

Edited June 13, 2021 by RWB

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

Not quite ---- The first day's production was made at approx 150 T/sq in, which was the upper stress limit for die steel of that era. George Morgan complained that dies cracked, broke and exploded with such frequency that they got "tired of replacing dies." The next day, the pressure was reduced to about 130 tons.

Neither 150 nor 130 was sufficient to bring up all the design, but the 1st day's coins are noticeably better detailed than the remaining 900,000. (See Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921 for details.)

Coin detail has nothing to do with the Pittman Act.

But needing to crank them out fast did. The melted Morgans needed to be replaced ASAP.

Edited June 14, 2021 by VKurtB

[Hoghead515]

Is the coin above a high relief?  I haven't studied on them much. I haven't looked at enough of them to tell the difference much. I only have one 1922 and I know it's the regular relief. It's a very weak strike. It looks no where close to as nice as the one above. 

[VKurtB]

11 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

Is the coin above a high relief?  I haven't studied on them much. I haven't looked at enough of them to tell the difference much. I only have one 1922 and I know it's the regular relief. It's a very weak strike. It looks no where close to as nice as the one above. 

IIRC, all 1921’s are high relief.

[Hoghead515]

Just now, VKurtB said:

IIRC, all 1921’s are high relief.

I see now. I read all the way down the thread and still thought it was a 1922.  Im losing it. Been a long weekend. That's a fact I didn't know about the 1921s though. Thanks for the info. 

[Coinbuf]

2 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

IIRC, all 1921’s are high relief.

Just to be clear all 1921 Peace dollars are high relief, all the Morgan dollars are normal.

@dollarfan Thanks for the additional pics, those do look to be die polish lines so I'll reverse my statement on those areas and the worries on cleaning.   I'm not much of a gambler so I would probably just sell and buy another in the plastic/grade I wanted but I think your chances are better after seeing those new photos.

[VKurtB]

48 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

Just to be clear all 1921 Peace dollars are high relief, all the Morgan dollars are normal.

@dollarfan Thanks for the additional pics, those do look to be die polish lines so I'll reverse my statement on those areas and the worries on cleaning.   I'm not much of a gambler so I would probably just sell and buy another in the plastic/grade I wanted but I think your chances are better after seeing those new photos.

That’s where we diverge. I VERY seldom buy already slabbed coins except when I can get some lower priced coins for less than the cost of certification.

[Simple Collector]

There are collectors who really like the old PCI holders. I see nothing wrong with keeping the coin in the holder as it is. As for toning, the Peace dollars are difficult to find with attractive toning. Similar to most Franklin Halves n most years and mints.

[RWB]

What is to be gained by having the coin regraded? Let it sleep where it is unless there is a compelling reason to change.

[Woods020]

I wouldn’t touch it. I don’t foresee it going to a higher grade of regraded, and possibly the opposite. It could just be my view, but there is possibly some wear on the hair around the face and impaired luster for sure in that area. Could just as well come back AU potentially and you would kick yourself. 
 

moral of the story: Little to nothing to gain and more to lose. Leave it as is. 

[RWB]

The conservative numismatic approach is to make no change unless it is for improvement.

It's a little like the predecessor phrase coined by Thomas Inman in 1860: primum non nocere -- first, do no harm.

[dollarfan]

5 hours ago, Woods020 said:

I wouldn’t touch it. I don’t foresee it going to a higher grade of regraded, and possibly the opposite. It could just be my view, but there is possibly some wear on the hair around the face and impaired luster for sure in that area. Could just as well come back AU potentially and you would kick yourself. 
 

moral of the story: Little to nothing to gain and more to lose. Leave it as is. 

thanks to all for the great inputs.  i am absolutely definately 100 percent going to leave this coin alone!  if and when i get around to selling a few items this would be in the first batch.  As i have been badly burned before buying raw coins when i was a total newb.  (i have learned ALOT here) i would simply list it as  1921 PEACE DOLLAR,  old PCI holder and state in the description that PCI has been noted as being unreliable in the past.  the 62 grade looks correct to me and that there are no obvious signs of cleaning.  then i will sleep good at night and based on what 1921 peace are going for i would say it would bring 700+ EEEEAAASSSYYY with a dozen really good closeup shots listed.  i havent listed any coins for sale before, just bullion, but i know this for a fact......good pictures sell good coins (better than this one probably)  thanks everyone!!  

[VKurtB]

6 hours ago, Simple Collector said:

There are collectors who really like the old PCI holders. I see nothing wrong with keeping the coin in the holder as it is. As for toning, the Peace dollars are difficult to find with attractive toning. Similar to most Franklin Halves n most years and mints.

A whole lotta truth in not much space. But even aesthetically, I never liked the PCI slab. But then again, I don’t like the PCGS one much either. NGC strikes me as clean and uncluttered.  

Edited June 14, 2021 by VKurtB

[RWB]

3 hours ago, dollarfan said:

There are no obvious signs of cleaning.

Here are some cleaning signs for the next time you buy a coin ----

Edited June 15, 2021 by RWB