Is truthfullness a reasonable expectation from coin sellers?
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135 posts in this topic

Changing direction somewhat - one thing that really bothers me is when sellers (and especially large auction houses) repeat often-told legends about coins because they make a good story. When new research comes out that clarifies the story about a coin, an auction house has a responsibility to tell the true story of the coin instead of the fairy tale. In the modern age, there is a lot of back-to-the-source research that is being done which completely refutes the Legends of Breen, but people still repeat the stories. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

Changing direction somewhat - one thing that really bothers me is when sellers (and especially large auction houses) repeat often-told legends about coins because they make a good story. When new research comes out that clarifies the story about a coin, an auction house has a responsibility to tell the true story of the coin instead of the fairy tale. In the modern age, there is a lot of back-to-the-source research that is being done which completely refutes the Legends of Breen, but people still repeat the stories. 

There are more made up legends than actual truths out there - FAAAAR more. 
 

The character George Costanza one said, “It’s not a lie if you believe it.” That’s the coin business in a nutshell. 

Edited by VKurtB
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Oldhoopster said:

 

Is a telling me a lie? No. But it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand what he’s saying with that response.  The coin has negative attributes that he doesn’t want to talk about.  So, he answered my question by not answering it and I’ll make my purchasing decision accordingly.  Pretty simple

Where I deal most, the “rules” are that the coin is what the coin is and its history is a blank slate, period. 
 

Regarding CAC beaning, if I had it slabbed, it has never been seen by CAC, nor will it ever be, unless YOU send it. And THAT, my friends, is an iron clad guarantee. 
 

If what three NGC graders said isn’t good enough for you, JA’s opinion isn’t good enough for me. Simple. 

Edited by VKurtB
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Posted (edited)

Being fairly new to more dedicated collecting the last few years and with this silly covid restrictions have made some of us somewhat dependent on using the internet and various selling platforms for collecting. I have had to trust others opinions and descriptions of coins in the marketplace and forums like this for info, data...etc. I have learned that about 50% cannot be trusted(this is the big market/auction sellers not forum ppl) with their opinions on a coin. Numerous what I call high dollar items I have purchased, over trust, has cost me some expensive learning and many of those items have been returnable but some not....in the tune of $2000+. Had this been a brick and mortar store and talking face to face with the seller I can assure you I would regain my losses either by speaking to the person or by legal means if necessary. I don't take being ripped off lightly. 
...so, with that being said "Honesty is the best policy"
...and the CAC stuff, it should have NOTHING to do with the grade of a coin IMO but only the additional appearance due to toning, luster and the like.

Edited by EdG_Ohio
grammar
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32 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Where I deal most, the “rules” are that the coin is what the coin is and its history is a blank slate, period. 
 

Regarding CAC beaning, if I had it slabbed, it has never been seen by CAC, nor will it ever be, unless YOU send it. And THAT, my friends, is an iron clad guarantee. 
 

If what three NGC graders said isn’t good enough for you, JA’s opinion isn’t good enough for me. Simple. 

Don't know where you're going with this, Kurt.  All I did was respond to Roger's question in the OP.  Don't overthink things.:ohnoez:

If you're just responding with your opinion regarding CAC, it would be less confusing (at least to me) if you posted it as a stand alone and not in response to one of my posts that has nothing to do with CAC.  I have no problem if you disagree with my opinion, especially since you usually offer your reasons in the reply, but I have no idea of the purpose for your comments to my posts :makepoint:

 

 

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44 minutes ago, EdG_Ohio said:

Being fairly new to more dedicated collecting the last few years and with this silly covid restrictions have made some of us somewhat dependent on using the internet and various selling platforms for collecting. I have had to trust others opinions and descriptions of coins in the marketplace and forums like this for info, data...etc. I have learned that about 50% cannot be trusted(this is the big market/auction sellers not forum ppl) with their opinions on a coin. Numerous what I call high dollar items I have purchased, over trust, has cost me some expensive learning and many of those items have been returnable but some not....in the tune of $2000+. Had this been a brick and mortar store and talking face to face with the seller I can assure you I would regain my losses either by speaking to the person or by legal means if necessary. I don't take being ripped off lightly. 
...so, with that being said "Honesty is the best policy"
...and the CAC stuff, it should have NOTHING to do with the grade of a coin IMO but only the additional appearance due to toning, luster and the like.

Like it or not, CAC has a great deal to do with the grade of a coin.

There should be enough opportunities to buy from sellers who offer return privileges, so as to avoid those who don’t.

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18 hours ago, RWB said:

So lies, deception, fakes, and anything else goes - as long as the buyer doesn't get suspicious and visit a 'Jersey Pizza joint for a "consultation." Doesn't say much positive about humanity, does it?

There is quite little positive TO BE SAID about humanity, in case you have been recently distracted elsewhere. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

Like it or not, CAC has a great deal to do with the grade of a coin.

I must disagree.  The coin must be graded by NGC or PCGS BEFORE it is sent to CAC.  When it is returned, with or without the coveted bean, the grade remains the same.  It neither gains nor loses a grade in the process.

Edited by Alex in PA.
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9 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

I must disagree.  The coin must be graded by NGC or PCGS BEFORE it is sent to CAC.  When it is returned, with or without the coveted bean, the grade remains the same.  It neither gains nor loses a grade in the process.

True, of course, but my post was in response to one that stated:
...and the CAC stuff, it should have NOTHING to do with the grade of a coin IMO but only the additional appearance due to toning, luster and the like.

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1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

True, of course, but my post was in response to one that stated:
...and the CAC stuff, it should have NOTHING to do with the grade of a coin IMO but only the additional appearance due to toning, luster and the like.

99% of the readers on this or any other forum still dont fully understand just what a cac green bean signifies on a slab...it does not add nor subtract from the grade on the slab, it has no influence on the grade on the slab, it almost certainly adds to the perception that that particular coin could possibly be a higher grade if not now in the future but that is not the intent of the bean...it simply put, indicates that that particular coin in that date n in that grade is in the top X% of all coins in that date n that grade that has been submitted to cac for evaluation, nothing more...obviously eye appeal, lustre, original color, lack of distracting marks etc enter into the formula (all subjective)...it does not mean e.g. that a '92-s morgan in xf45 is competing against a '93-s morgan in xf45, it means a '92-s morgan in xf45 is competing against all other '92-s morgans in xf45 that have been submitted...obviously there has to be a sliding scale because all '92-s morgans have not been submitted yet, but at the time the coin was evaluated it was in the top X% of those submitted up until that time...thats all that it means...all the rest is people's interpretation of what they believe it means, mostly incorrect assumptions...gold beans would be another discussion.....

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1 hour ago, zadok said:

99% of the readers on this or any other forum still dont fully understand just what a cac green bean signifies on a slab

Thankfully we have you to explain CAC to us novices.  :pullhair:

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1 hour ago, zadok said:

99% of the readers on this or any other forum still dont fully understand just what a cac green bean signifies on a slab...it does not add nor subtract from the grade on the slab, it has no influence on the grade on the slab, it almost certainly adds to the perception that that particular coin could possibly be a higher grade if not now in the future but that is not the intent of the bean...it simply put, indicates that that particular coin in that date n in that grade is in the top X% of all coins in that date n that grade that has been submitted to cac for evaluation, nothing more...obviously eye appeal, lustre, original color, lack of distracting marks etc enter into the formula (all subjective)...it does not mean e.g. that a '92-s morgan in xf45 is competing against a '93-s morgan in xf45, it means a '92-s morgan in xf45 is competing against all other '92-s morgans in xf45 that have been submitted...obviously there has to be a sliding scale because all '92-s morgans have not been submitted yet, but at the time the coin was evaluated it was in the top X% of those submitted up until that time...thats all that it means...all the rest is people's interpretation of what they believe it means, mostly incorrect assumptions...gold beans would be another discussion.....

“..it simply put, indicates that that particular coin in that date n in that grade is in the top X% of all coins in that date n that grade that has been submitted to cac for evaluation, nothing more..”

CAC doesn’t really take percentages into account or classify coins based only upon the ones that  have been submitted to them. Simply put, CAC awards green stickers to coins that they consider A quality or B quality, but not C quality within a given grade. Or if you prefer, high end or mid range, but not low end.

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7 hours ago, Alex in PA. said:

The problem with your statement is:  CAC has been in business since 2007 and has developed a hobby wide reputation for certifying some of the most appealing coins being offered today.  It is not unreasonable to believe a person new to our hobby has done his homework and read the publicity, comments, etc. about this organization while attempting to acquire information on the hobby..  So, to want the finest coin available may not be a matter of the heart but certainly is a matter of the mind.  However, there are a few who do try to learn anything about collecting.  

As I see it the problem with your statement is if a sticker on a holder is is so important to a collector that it is the first question they ask then their heart is not about the love of the coin but the love of something else. If this is where your heart is at, especially a newbie, the one is just a short step away from becoming a collector of the right number on the proper label in the preferred  holder with the correct sticker. If this is where one's heart is then fine fine. There are many who say that no matter how knowledgeable a numismatist this person may be their heart is not set on the coin but the holder. Wanting only the best coin available is not a matter of the mind but a matter of the ego.   

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3 minutes ago, Moxie15 said:

As I see it the problem with your statement is if a sticker on a holder is is so important to a collector that it is the first question they ask then their heart is not about the love of the coin but the love of something else. If this is where your heart is at, especially a newbie, the one is just a short step away from becoming a collector of the right number on the proper label in the preferred  holder with the correct sticker. If this is where one's heart is then fine fine. There are many who say that no matter how knowledgeable a numismatist this person may be their heart is not set on the coin but the holder. Wanting only the best coin available is not a matter of the mind but a matter of the ego.   

In the large majority of cases, I don’t think it’s necessarily about wanting the best coin or about ego. But rather, it’s a desire for confirmation of a coin’s quality (and thus, value) from a very highly regarded expert. Likewise, before buying NGC or PCGS graded coins, many collectors seek opinions from other collectors or dealers. They’re seeking reassurance regarding quality and value.

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29 minutes ago, Moxie15 said:

As I see it the problem with your statement is if a sticker on a holder is is so important to a collector that it is the first question they ask then their heart is not about the love of the coin but the love of something else. If this is where your heart is at, especially a newbie, the one is just a short step away from becoming a collector of the right number on the proper label in the preferred  holder with the correct sticker. If this is where one's heart is then fine fine. There are many who say that no matter how knowledgeable a numismatist this person may be their heart is not set on the coin but the holder. Wanting only the best coin available is not a matter of the mind but a matter of the ego.   

collectors normally buy something cause they like it, want it, need it or combination of all three...prob decide based on their mind, heart n ego...nothing wrong with any of those reasons...striving for the best n truly enjoying the journey, paradise...being obsessed by it, not so much...buying a coin just because of the label, a journey without a lasting satisfaction...buying a coin thats the finest, satisfaction u can live with until u dont want it or need it anymore...the good old days, pre-certification, pure collecting just for the satisfaction...those days r gone forever n now u try to find that satisfaction with a certification measuring stick, not as much fun but it is what it is....

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Moxie15 said:

Wanting only the best coin available is not a matter of the mind but a matter of the ego.   

Question:  does that 1933 DE, you know, the one in drastic need of plastic surgery, or possible leg amputation -- the one soon to be available as the only one of its kind to legally own, meet your definition of "Best coin available," regardless of mind, ego or numismatic fanaticism?

Edited by Quintus Arrius
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10 hours ago, VKurtB said:

The character George Costanza one said, “It’s not a lie if you believe it.” That’s the coin business in a nutshell. 

TWIIIIXXXXXXXXX !!!!!! xD

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10 hours ago, VKurtB said:

If what three NGC graders said isn’t good enough for you, JA’s opinion isn’t good enough for me. Simple. 

Maybe, but JA is synonomous with CAC and is well-respected, do YOU know who the graders are at the TPG who went over your coins ?

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

In the large majority of cases, I don’t think it’s necessarily about wanting the best coin or about ego. But rather, it’s a desire for confirmation of a coin’s quality (and thus, value) from a very highly regarded expert. Likewise, before buying NGC or PCGS graded coins, many collectors seek opinions from other collectors or dealers. They’re seeking reassurance regarding quality and value.

Bingo !! (thumbsu

There are lots of things I forget that I read in coin forums....but a few things stick with me and will be with me as long as I have my marbles.

And one thing that hit like a heat-seeking missile was this statement:   if you complain or dislike grade inflation in the coin hobby, you can't be against CAC.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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3 hours ago, Walkerfan said:

I find that you must be your own advocate and ask questions.  They are not going to voluntarily tell you every detail about a purchase.  They provide an image and a description.   It is up to you to do the rest of the work.  

If it's Ebay, you need to make sure the seller has a return policy for minute issues that they may legitimately not think worthy of mentioning (they may not even see it) but which are a deal-breaker to you.

GC and HA -- their pictures are so outstanding that it's tough (but not impossible) to be misled by the photos.  Each has a reputation to protect, too, though I'm not sure if they offer any returns. 

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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

If it's Ebay, you need to make sure the seller has a return policy for minute issues that they may legitimately not think worthy of mentioning (they may not even see it) but which are a deal-breaker to you.

GC and HA -- their pictures are so outstanding that it's tough (but not impossible) to be misled by the photos.  Each has a reputation to protect, too, though I'm not sure if they offer any returns. 

As a general rule, we don’t allow returns of auction lots. There are rare exceptions however. One of my major job responsibilities - one in which which I take great pride - is screening auction lots for clients. Sometimes the client has a particular question, other times I’m asked for my personal assessment of the coin. Every once in a while, a client who has asked me to view coins for the first time, is surprised when I give a thumbs down to some of them. 😉

 

Edited by MarkFeld
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On 5/20/2021 at 6:34 PM, MarkFeld said:

It depends who the dealer is. And ditto if the seller is a collector.

It matters not who the dealer is. I expect a truthful response from the dealer no matter what the circumstance.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

As a general rule, we don’t allow returns of auction lots. There are rare exceptions however. One of my major job responsibilities - one in which which I take great pride - is screening auction lots for clients. Sometimes the client has a particular question, other times I’m asked for my personal assessment of the coin. Every once in a while, a client who has asked me to view coins for the first time, is surprised when I give a thumbs down to some of them. 😉

 

You and your colleagues do a great job, Mark. (thumbsu

I just found out about HA in the last 2 years and have won a few dozen items since.  Very happy with the App/website, the items offered, customer service, and entire operation.  Got some catalogs too down at FUN 2020. (thumbsu

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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7 minutes ago, numisport said:

It matters not who the dealer is. I expect a truthful response from the dealer no matter what the circumstance.

It does matter. Because, whether dealer or collector, not all sellers tell the truth. And while you’re entitled to a truthful response, because you know that some people lie, it’s an unreasonable expectation that each seller will be honest with you, no matter what the circumstance.

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11 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

It does matter. Because, whether dealer or collector, not all sellers tell the truth. And while you’re entitled to a truthful response, because you know that some people lie, it’s an unreasonable expectation that each seller will be honest with you, no matter what the circumstance.

Sorry I thought the dealer was asked the question

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4 minutes ago, numisport said:

Sorry I thought the dealer was asked the question

The question, which would certainly include dealers, was:

“If there is a reasonable expectation that coin sellers or TPGs be truthful in all respects?”

My point is, since it’s known that a lot of people lie, it’s unreasonable to expect every seller to be truthful. That doesn’t mean you’re not entitled to the truth, only that you won’t always get it. And based on any particular seller’s behavior and reputation, it might or might not be reasonable to expect him to be truthful.

 

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Posted (edited)

Not only are not all sellers truthful, sometimes they really don't know that much about what they own.

You get an MS65 coin that really shold be an MS63; can you blame the seller for not saying it looks worse than an MS65 ?  He might have zero grading skills and not honestly know.

OTOH, if he used deceptive photos, that's indicative of deceit and he probably knew the coin was not an MS65.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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I may have interpreted the question differently.  It's my expectation that I'm given truthful answers to my questions.  However, I am not naive or gullible to believe that everybody tells the truth. If you knowingly lie or misrepresent something, I will no longer respect you, nor trust you.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Maybe, but JA is synonomous with CAC and is well-respected, do YOU know who the graders are at the TPG who went over your coins ?

Possibly; but I can only hazard a guess.  During the period 2000 - 2002 I bought many coins slabbed by our Host.

Edited by Alex in PA.
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