Interesting CAC Copycat 1 1

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Lem E said:

I just don’t see the justification of a price of $6000 for a coin that has a normal value of $25. A MS65 Jefferson Nickel with no FS designation is just that. Not worth much of anything. Putting a MAC sticker on that is saying it has 4 complete steps still isn’t worth much of anything. How can they justify the price jump?

Don't ask me, I know nothing of the coins...but is the example given true, a 1000-fold increase in price ?  Even 100x increase would be alot though I understand that the Full Steps thing is important for the nickles.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

18 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Another example is the 1999 American Silver Eagle in NGC MS-69 selling for $65 and its MS-70 counterpart at $6,500 or 100 times greater. A MAC NGC MS-69 has considerably more value and could be worth 10% of the MS-70 value."

Hey....I've been a wide-eyed skeptic of 70 modern coins selling for multiples of 69's....but it's a function of population census numbers...I don't AGREE with it and for the most part I stay away from the 70's when the absolute dollars involved are hundreds of dollars or more.

That said....I don't think that "grade enhancement" -- even for all of my 69's -- is where I want to take this hobby.  We're cheapening the hobby, IMO.  We're Balkanizing the label....leading to more confusion and segmentation which adds complexity for newcomers and part-timers....and turns off veterans and purists who help lead the hobby.

More information is usually good...but too much can be bad.

[Lem E]

40 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Don't ask me, I know nothing of the coins...but is the example given true, a 1000-fold increase in price ?  Even 100x increase would be alot though I understand that the Full Steps thing is important for the nickles.

 

 

The link I posted above in my earlier post is the coin I am using as an example. Yes, they want $6000 for a MS65 non FS coin. NGC price guide for same coin is $25. 

[Hoghead515]

7 hours ago, Lem E said:

They should just put a sticker on that says “ALMOST MADE IT, BUT PAY US ANYWAY”. $6k for a MS65? C’mon son. https://www.ebay.com/itm/1953-S-JEFFERSON-NICKEL-NGC-MS65-4FS-PQ-MAC-2ND-FINEST-REGISTRY-20-000-IN-FS-/402683246455?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286

They lost their mind. If you notice on all the other coins they are trying to sell, most has MAC stickers on them. And way over priced. I'm gonna start slapping stickers on all mine. I'm gonna stick those scratch and sniff stickers on em though. That way at least you can get a pleasant smell out of them after ya get ripped off. I've not got the heart to do that to people tho. 

[Hoghead515]

I hope the hobby don't come down to sticker wars and everything gets way over priced. If people start paying those ridiculous prices and it makes the prices go way up on those low ball coins ill have to give up on the hobby. Surely to goodness it won't. Hope not anyways. 

[Lem E]

18 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

I hope the hobby don't come down to sticker wars and everything gets way over priced. If people start paying those ridiculous prices and it makes the prices go way up on those low ball coins ill have to give up on the hobby. Surely to goodness it won't. Hope not anyways. 

I just don’t see the coin collecting community being that gullible. PQ is one thing. GE is another. “ALMOST” doesn’t count in my book.

[Revenant]

1 hour ago, Hoghead515 said:

I hope the hobby don't come down to sticker wars and everything gets way over priced. If people start paying those ridiculous prices and it makes the prices go way up on those low ball coins ill have to give up on the hobby. Surely to goodness it won't. Hope not anyways. 

I mean, some would argue we went there just with TPGs / that was the camel's nose in the tent.

I don't see this working. I don't see many / any CAC coins in what I collect because the value add isn't there. CAC only works on higher end things where 1 point matters. Same thing with WINGS. I have 1 stickered WINGS coin. I didn't pay extra for it. I haven't removed it, but I didn't pay extra for it.

Edited April 6, 2021 by Revenant

[zadok]

33 minutes ago, Revenant said:

I mean, some would argue we went there just with TPGs / that was the camel's nose in the tent.

I don't see this working. I don't see many / any CAC coins in what I collect because the value add isn't there. CAC only works on higher end things where 1 point matters. Same thing with WINGS. I have 1 stickered WINGS coin. I didn't pay extra for it. I haven't removed it, but I didn't pay extra for it.

not entirely accurate.....cac stickers coins in any grade.....

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

I hope the hobby don't come down to sticker wars and everything gets way over priced. If people start paying those ridiculous prices and it makes the prices go way up on those low ball coins ill have to give up on the hobby. Surely to goodness it won't. Hope not anyways. 

Don't let these companies force you to leave the biz.  The fact that they have so little business and that I never heard of them before today and that I doubt that more than 3 dealers out of 600 at FUN 2022 would have any of their coins shows that most astute collectors know this thing is a joke.

If they want to be another CAC stickering company, fine.  Let them focus on either overall quality like CAC or maybe some individual attributes.....and then MAKE A MARKET in the coins they sticker so they eat their own home cooking.

They say they're correctly grading coins that are more valuable ?  Then put your money where your mouth is.  Buy at the higher price.

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Revenant said:

I mean, some would argue we went there just with TPGs / that was the camel's nose in the tent.

I get where you are coming from, Rev, but the analogy doesn't hold under closer inspection for those naysayers to the TPGs.  Most coin collectors are NOT great or even good graders.  That meant they were at the mercy of unscrupulous dealers who sold them overpriced and overgraded coins -- sometimes by accident because the dealers themselves weren't good graders.   Imagine Ebay without TPG-certified coins -- OMG. 

Economics 101 says you need transparency and (perfect) information to make good efficient markets.  I don't think we have 100% transparency and perfect information with the TPGs -- but they definitely closed the gap.  Even with the occasional/inadvertent mistakes, overgrading, occasional loose standards -- the amount of mistakes, fraud, overpriced and overgraded stuff has gone down a ton since 40 years ago.

I don't have the time to do the necessary research, DD, and grading analysis for all my purchases of coins and currency without the TPGs.  If we were back in the ungraded, pre-TPG era, I'd probably have 1/10th of my holdings.  

2 hours ago, Revenant said:

I don't see this working. I don't see many / any CAC coins in what I collect because the value add isn't there. CAC only works on higher end things where 1 point matters. 

Not necessarily.  Sometimes it's not about wanting a coin that will grab 20% of the gap to the next-grade, the inflection point for price.  I looked into a CAC 1923-D MS-66 last year at FUN.  I wanted it not for the price it would command but for the quality.  Ultimately, I spent alot of time and found a really nice 1923-D MS-66 without CAC.  Who knows, maybe it would even qualify for a CAC sticker.  Most importantly, I like the coin alot.

Edited April 6, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Fenntucky Mike]

12 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

(2)  CAC buying their own stickered product isn't a pump-and-dump......they're NOT dumping, they are buying.  They are eating their own home cooking.  If CAC says my MS-66 1923-D Saint is CAC-worthy and they pay an extra $1,000 for the coin, didn't they do the right thing ?

This seems a bit murky to me. I'm not well versed in CAC or how they acquire and trade/sell CAC coins but conflicts of interest appear to be there along with a potential for funny business. 

5 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

If we were back in the ungraded, pre-TPG era, I'd probably have 1/10th of my holdings.

Wow! That seems harsh. Without TPG's I'd would have fewer collectables but not 90% less. Ouch! I get what you're saying though.

[Hoghead515]

I can understand the CAC stickers marking the best coins. I just hope all the other dealers don't start following suit with that seller trying to get 6000 out of a $25 nickle because of those MAC stickers. People see stuff like that on EBAY  and think to themselves, "I need me some MAC stickers."   That's what I hope it dont come down to. Then everything get way over priced. I just hope all sellers don't turn out like the one in the example above over a MAC sticker. I can't hardly wrap my head around that.  $6000 for a $25 coin. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

2 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

I can't hardly wrap my head around that.  $6000 for a $25 coin. 

That's Etsy level shystering.

[Revenant]

6 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I get where you are coming from, Rev, but the analogy doesn't hold under closer inspection for those naysayers to the TPGs. 

Yeah, but I'm just saying some would argue that. I'm one of those people that sucks at grading. 🤣

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

This seems a bit murky to me. I'm not well versed in CAC or how they acquire and trade/sell CAC coins but conflicts of interest appear to be there along with a potential for funny business. Wow! That seems harsh. Without TPG's I'd would have fewer collectables but not 90% less. Ouch! I get what you're saying though.

(1)  CAC makes a market in their own stickered coins and will buy/sell sight-unseen their own coins by making a market in them.  If they were putting stickers on coins that didn't deserve it -- if they stickered "C" coins that didn't deserve it -- they'd be buying back "C" coins at "A" prices and stuck with their own overgraded/overstickered coins.

(2)  Maybe 90% is too much but you get my drift.  Could be 50%....could be 75%....point is, it'd be alot less buying as I would need to vet folks I buy from especially gold coins costing ~ $2,000 much more carefully.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Hoghead515 said:

I can understand the CAC stickers marking the best coins. I just hope all the other dealers don't start following suit with that seller trying to get 6000 out of a $25 nickle because of those MAC stickers. People see stuff like that on EBAY  and think to themselves, "I need me some MAC stickers."   That's what I hope it dont come down to. Then everything get way over priced. I just hope all sellers don't turn out like the one in the example above over a MAC sticker. I can't hardly wrap my head around that.  $6000 for a $25 coin. 

If MAC provides a useful service and their graders/owners have some credibility, then maybe their stickers will acquire some market value (though not to the extent they are promising).  

CAC was founded by John Albanese, who was a key early player in both PCGS and NGC.  CAC is in effect a "grader of the graders" by making sure that the coins graded are "strong" for the underlying grade.

I admit to knowing nothing about the founders and people behind these other firms.  But whereas PCGS was strickly interested in providing desperately needed knowledge to make it so that you didn't need to be an excellent grader to participate in coin collecting......and whereas NGC provided competition to PCGS so a monopoly didn't exist....and whereas CAC then kept both PCGS and NGC on their toes (so to speak) by making sure that their grading doesn't go off the rails.....these companies (or at least their marketing verbiage) seems entirely focused on grabbing some of the price gap at key inflection points. 

Seems too much focused on monetary benefits and not getting quality coins for one's money.

[GoldFinger1969]

52 minutes ago, Revenant said:

Yeah, but I'm just saying some would argue that. I'm one of those people that sucks at grading. 🤣

To an extent, I am too.  But I think we have great balance right now with 2 major TPGs, 2 support TPGs, and an enforcer of strict grading (CAC).

I could get another stickering company, but only to compete with CAC, not to promise folks that their stickers will grab some of the real estate between 2 different prices at inflection points.

[Henri Charriere]

20 hours ago, JT2 said:

WHAT you mean i am not a Millionaire  

Actually, no.  Those were $100 trillion bank notes.  You are a multi-trillionaire.  And it doesn't matter whether they appreciate in value or not.  They are worth a lot more than what you paid for them and someone somewhere will always want one.  Having one in your pocket puts pep in your step and jut in your strut. 😉

[Henri Charriere]

40 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

If MAC provides a useful service and their graders/owners have some credibility, then maybe their stickers will acquire some market value (though not to the extent they are promising).  

CAC was founded by John Albanese, who was a key early player in both PCGS and NGC.  CAC is in effect a "grader of the graders" by making sure that the coins graded are "strong" for the underlying grade.

I admit to knowing nothing about the founders and people behind these other firms.  But whereas PCGS was strickly interested in providing desperately needed knowledge to make it so that you didn't need to be an excellent grader to participate in coin collecting......and whereas NGC provided competition to PCGS so a monopoly didn't exist....and whereas CAC then kept both PCGS and NGC on their toes (so to speak) by making sure that their grading doesn't go off the rails.....these companies (or at least their marketing verbiage) seems entirely focused on grabbing some of the price gap at key inflection points. 

Seems too much focused on monetary benefits and not getting quality coins for one's money.

I am still on the fence with this. As far as I am concerned, true grading does not exist. Yet. Lotteries are won with winning numbers.  Game shows are won with correct answers. As long as you have differing opinions in numismatics, you don't have any clear winners. What you do have are collectors who think they may have been close to winning.  Not my idea of a level playing field.

[My apologies to Just Bob if it's a little too early in the morning for all this.]

[Alex in PA.]

10 hours ago, Revenant said:

CAC only works on higher end things where 1 point matters.

Correct.  Revenant knows what he is talking about.  I saw a common Mint State 63 Morgan with a CAC sticker.  That is the exact definition of 'greedy' and does nothing more than hurt the hobby by inflating a $40.00 coin to $60.00 or $80.00.

51 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

CAC makes a market in their own stickered coins and will buy/sell sight-unseen their own coins by making a market in them. 

"Pump and dump" (P&D) is a form of securities fraud that involves artificially inflating the price of an owned stock".  Punishable by prison time if stocks are involved.  Coins....nope, do as you please because there's no regulation on how high you can inflate a coin nor how many 'misleading'  statements used to describe said coin.

[Henri Charriere]

13 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

"Pump and dump" (P&D) is a form of securities fraud that involves artificially inflating the price of an owned stock".  Punishable by prison time if stocks are involved.  Coins....nope, do as you please because there's no regulation on how high you can inflate a coin nor how many 'misleading'  statements used to describe said coin.

[Now here's where you need to post that growling dog emoji of yours, Alex.]

[GoldFinger1969]

18 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

Correct.  Revenant knows what he is talking about.  I saw a common Mint State 63 Morgan with a CAC sticker.  That is the exact definition of 'greedy' and does nothing more than hurt the hobby by inflating a $40.00 coin to $60.00 or $80.00.

Suppose there are lots of MS63 Morgans and they vary all over the lot ?  At least the CAC sticker is saying that the coin is strong for the grade.

If lots of crappy coins are graded MS63 -- if they are really MS62's -- then that $40 coin really is for MS62 coins.  CAC is simply saying that some of the MS63's are MUCH BETTER than others.  Where the price goes....the market determines it.

If you believe all coins graded the same are in fact the same, then your criticism of CAC at least makes sense.  If however you believe there is a wide lattitude in the grading even within the same coin grade, then you can't berate CAC.

18 minutes ago, Alex in PA. said:

"Pump and dump" (P&D) is a form of securities fraud that involves artificially inflating the price of an owned stock".  Punishable by prison time if stocks are involved.  Coins....nope, do as you please because there's no regulation on how high you can inflate a coin nor how many 'misleading'  statements used to describe said coin.

Right, P&D involves inflating a stock like we saw with GameStop.  CAC is nothing like this because CAC and John Albanese are eating their own cooking by making a market in their own stickered product.

Were all the Gamestop boosters who said the stock was worth $1,000 when it was trading at $400 now willing to pay $400 for the bagholders who own it with the stock at less than half that price (about $200) ?  No, they are NOT !!!   That's a pump-and-dump.....exactly the OPPOSITE of what CAC brings to the table, Alex.

Edited April 6, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Revenant]

40 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Actually, no.  Those were $100 trillion bank notes.  You are a multi-trillionaire.  And it doesn't matter whether they appreciate in value or not.  They are worth a lot more than what you paid for them and someone somewhere will always want one.  Having one in your pocket puts pep in your step and jut in your strut. 😉

The 100T and the 50T in particular still trade at nice premiums. The vast majority of the others you can have for $1-5. The graded notes sell for the grading fees or less unless you're buying very high grades. That's one of the reasons I just bought my whole set graded when I wanted to build that signature set. Why take a risk on buying raw and going through the grading process when I can get a good grade at low or no premium?

[GoldFinger1969]

Those Zimbabwe notes aren't cheap.  I see them on Ebay and also at FUN 2020 and for a note that is ridiculously devalued because of the printing press churning them out like Weimar Geramny did the mark, they sure charge alot for those notes in pristine condition. 

[World Colonial]

On 4/5/2021 at 3:57 PM, gmarguli said:

JA took a concept that Alan Hager (MAC Founder) developed and ran with it.

Now AH takes a concept that JA founded and ran with it.

I trust both of them equally. 

Does MAC have standing bids on their stickered coins like CAC? 

If not, I don't see why anyone would care, as it adds nothing to the coin's marketability.

I have seen MAC stickered South African coins listed at huge premiums to the actual value on eBay.  

What I see MAC attempting to do is get US level prices even on non-US coins.  I doubt they have a clue about South African coinage and the coins are never going to sell.

[Hoghead515]

I noticed Mac also has several different stickers. MAC finest, MAC rainbow, MAC deep proof, etc.  I seen one coin on Ebay had MAC stickers all over it. Looked like the back windshield of a Volkswagen at a Grateful Dead concert.  That's no lie either. 

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Hoghead515 said:

I noticed Mac also has several different stickers. MAC finest, MAC rainbow, MAC deep proof, etc.  I seen one coin on Ebay had MAC stickers all over it. Looked like the back windshield of a Volkswagen at a Grateful Dead concert.  That's no lie either. 

More information with a TPG and/or CAC is fine.  TOO MUCH is excessive.

[Henri Charriere]

5 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

More information with a TPG and/or CAC is fine.  TOO MUCH is excessive.

Maybe encapsulations ought to come with DVD's (for a nominal fee).

[Revenant]

3 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

I noticed Mac also has several different stickers. MAC finest, MAC rainbow, MAC deep proof, etc.  I seen one coin on Ebay had MAC stickers all over it. Looked like the back windshield of a Volkswagen at a Grateful Dead concert.  That's no lie either. 

Hopefully you could still see the coin...

[Revenant]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

More information with a TPG and/or CAC is fine.  TOO MUCH is excessive.

I like the comments section on the back of a PMG holder, for when they have something they want to include there. Might not be bad with a smaller hologram with NGC... but I don't like the stickers. 1 is enough. 2.would be quite annoying and distracting.