New Article on the 1933 “Saints” 1 1

[GoldFinger1969]

40 minutes ago, RWB said:

[PS: The article is the usual reheated leftovers, stirred around and occasionally misunderstood. There's also far too much space devoted to irrelevant material. There's nothing requiring comment because there nothing interesting or new presented.]

The coin-by-coin analysis was something new which I hadn't seen in one place.   Your book has the best in-depth analysis of the Switt-Langbord Ten.

BTW, the Mint blowhard was Frank Leland Howard who started this whole mess.

[GoldFinger1969]

32 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Nobody other than RWB’s own words “slimed” RWB in that trial. RWB’s own braggadocio “ats” (since conveniently deleted) slimed RWB.

Come on Kurt....joking references aside, it was poster and guy talk.  I see the same stuff in my business field where when a stock acts like c*** you badmouth it and curse it out.  Then you're talking it up to a potential client.  Doesn't mean you really are selling your client a crappy stock, you're just cursing out a stock much like you would you favorite football team....or friends...or spouse.  

Besides, there were other posters and witnesses who might have been called to testify who had friends contacted asking for dirt on them.  These weren't folks "sliming themselves" and the government still wanted dirt.

Edited February 28, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

9 minutes ago, numisport said:

The chain of events is difficult for me to ponder. What made me laugh when this all started is when it was explained that these 10 Saints were FOUND in a safe deposit box. What a joke really ?

I thought this was a good read by the way.

Wow, they made the gist of the story into a novel ?  Didn't know that......for a second, I thought it was the horror guy Steven King. 

Yeah, the 10 coins were found in a mini-safe really, not some tiny SDB.  Something in size similar to a mini-fridge as I understand it (maybe a bit smaller).

[MarkFeld]

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

A duly constituted trial court found otherwise. Even the “exchange” was illegal at any date it could have reasonably happened. All 1933 examples were under lock and key, and the Mint cashier purloined them. Read the CoinWeek article again, Mark. Read it again. That is, if your ideology allows you to read plain English.

As I recall, the court didn’t find otherwise, because it didn’t even allow for the possibility that there was an exchange. I can read plain English just fine, thank you. Speaking of which, why are you the only one to claim that the Farouk example was “stolen”? 

[numisport]

3 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wow, they made the gist of the story into a novel ?  Didn't know that......for a second, I thought it was the horror guy Steven King. 

Yeah, the 10 coins were found in a mini-safe really, not some tiny SDB.  Something in size similar to a mini-fridge as I understand it (maybe a bit smaller).

It's fiction, just a novel and a great read.

[RonnieR131]

Is this a doubled die? Oops, wrong thread.

[Zebo]

3 hours ago, numisport said:

The chain of events is difficult for me to ponder. What made me laugh when this all started is when it was explained that these 10 Saints were FOUND in a safe deposit box. What a joke really ?

I thought this was a good read by the way.

“All that glisters is not gold;  Often have you heard that told: Many a man his life has sold But my outside to behold: Gilded tombs do worms enfold  Had you been as wise as bold, Your in limbs, in judgment old, Your answer had not been in'scroll'd Fare you well: your suit is cold.' Cold, indeed, and labour lost: Then, farewell, heat and welcome, frost!”

I thought about reading the book, but too many are in front of it.

[VKurtB]

2 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

As I recall, the court didn’t find otherwise, because it didn’t even allow for the possibility that there was an exchange. I can read plain English just fine, thank you. Speaking of which, why are you the only one to claim that the Farouk example was “stolen”? 

EVERYONE agrees the Farouk coin was stolen, as is evidenced by the fact that it also was liberated through the illicit dealings of Izzy Switt, not some alternate source. ALL the Switt touched coins were stolen. Each and every one was.

 

It is a fundamentally dirty coin that was whitewashed to not create an international incident, period. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

4 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

EVERYONE agrees the Farouk coin was stolen, as is evidenced by the fact that it also was liberated through the illicit dealings of Izzy Switt, not some alternate source. ALL the Switt touched coins were stolen. Each and every one was.

Yet, they let Fenton get 50% of the proceeds (and dropped the criminal charges, what sweet guys !!  ).

Again....if 1933 Saints in the 1940's traded like the 1907 High Reliefs did after World War 1 (5-10% premium)...the Feds don't give a bleep.  The Feds saw a bunch of $20 gold pieces...which never got an "official" release....selling for up to $800 a few years later.

In normal times, they'd be jealous and pissed.  In The Depression, they were probably steaming.

[VKurtB]

1 minute ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yet, they let Fenton get 50% of the proceeds (and dropped the criminal charges, what sweet guys !!  ).

Again....if 1933 Saints in the 1940's traded like the 1907 High Reliefs did after World War 1 (5-10% premium)...the Feds don't give a bleep.  The Feds saw a bunch of $20 gold pieces...which never got an "official" release....selling for up to $800 a few years later.

In normal times, they'd be jealous and pissed.  In The Depression, they were probably steaming.

They decided *issing off first Farouk and later the new leadership of Egypt wasn’t worth it.

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

They decided *issing off first Farouk and later the new leadership of Egypt wasn’t worth it.

That guy Farouk was a real beaut....collected EVERYTHING (Saints, Faberge Eggs) and meanwhile his people were starving.  No wonder Nasser was able to depose him so quickly.

The whole "we can't disrupt an ally, it'll lead to Hitler's victory" argument against going after the coin doesn't hit home with me.  More likely, with a war going on and Americans dying thousands of miles away on multiple fronts, they realized the U.S. government would look RIDICULOUS spending time and manpower going after a coin that wasn't made of plutonium or U-235. 

General Marshall:  "Good news, Mr. President...."

FDR:  "We'll be soon able to open a 2nd front in Europe ?  Stalin's been teed off for months now asking for that 2nd front.....or maybe we've accelerated the Island-hopping in the Pacific ?  Doug making more progress in the Philipines ?"

General Marshall: "None of that sir...but we did retrieve one of those $20 double eagles that was supposed to be melted down.  We now have it.  What do you want us to do with it ?"

FDR:  "I'll tell you what you can do with it...." 

 

Edited March 1, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[MarkFeld]

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

EVERYONE agrees the Farouk coin was stolen, as is evidenced by the fact that it also was liberated through the illicit dealings of Izzy Switt, not some alternate source. ALL the Switt touched coins were stolen. Each and every one was.

 

It is a fundamentally dirty coin that was whitewashed to not create an international incident, period. 

You do yourself a large disservice by misusing and abusing the word “everyone”. Since you’re well enough read to know what it means, I can only guess that you must be doing so in order to try to bolster your argument.
I don’t believe or agree that the coins were stolen, and neither do numerous other people, some of whom have posted here. Yet, despite the fact that you already knew that, you chose to say “everyone” anyway. You’re capable of much better.

I’m of the opinion that you like to get the last word, so please feel free to have at it. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by MarkFeld

[GoldFinger1969]

26 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

You do yourself a large disservice by misusing and abusing the word “everyone”. Since you’re well enough read to know what it means, I can only guess that you must be doing so in order to try to bolster your argument.  I don’t believe or agree that the coins were stolen, and neither do numerous other people, some of whom have posted here. Yet, despite the fact that you already knew that, you chose to say “everyone” anyway. You’re capable of much better.  I’m of the opinion that you like to get the last word, so please feel free to have at it. 

Mark, I think Kurt is sincere in his belief, just wrong.  He seems to have alot of hostility to the dealers of the day and their somewhat-borderline method of getting access to difficult coins.  Personally, I admire it.

Bowers tells of numerous Philly Mint employees going up to NYC and Boston (in addition to Philly) and trading the latest coins.  You can't tell me nobody wasn't looking to pick up some easy $$$ in The Depression by getting some of the 1933's in exchange for older coins.

Amazing that the same institutional arrogance and obsession exists 80 years later.  If they had this dedication on more important matters, they'd have tracked down that $5,000 in stolen 1928 Saints.

REALLY stolen.......

 

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Mark, I think Kurt is sincere in his belief, just wrong.  He seems to have alot of hostility to the dealers of the day and their somewhat-borderline method of getting access to difficult coins.  Personally, I admire it.

Bowers tells of numerous Philly Mint employees going up to NYC and Boston (in addition to Philly) and trading the latest coins.  You can't tell me nobody wasn't looking to pick up some easy $$$ in The Depression by getting some of the 1933's in exchange for older coins.

Amazing that the same institutional arrogance and obsession exists 80 years later.  If they had this dedication on more important matters, they'd have tracked down that $5,000 in stolen 1928 Saints.

REALLY stolen.......

 

[I think I will just wait for the cable television version to come out, HOW IT REALLY HAPPENED.  When I was just a kid and first heard about the Titanic, I thought no problem. They'll refloat the thing and that'll be the end of that. Who really knew the ship broke in half and was beyond salvage? No one expects the missing and/or stolen Saints to be marching back in. Case closed.  Now, about those three Alcatraz escapees, any theories? Anyone think Dan B. Cooper is alive?

[VKurtB]

2 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Mark, I think Kurt is sincere in his belief, just wrong.  He seems to have alot of hostility to the dealers of the day and their somewhat-borderline method of getting access to difficult coins.  Personally, I admire it.

Bowers tells of numerous Philly Mint employees going up to NYC and Boston (in addition to Philly) and trading the latest coins.  You can't tell me nobody wasn't looking to pick up some easy $$$ in The Depression by getting some of the 1933's in exchange for older coins.

Amazing that the same institutional arrogance and obsession exists 80 years later.  If they had this dedication on more important matters, they'd have tracked down that $5,000 in stolen 1928 Saints.

REALLY stolen.......

 

Izzy Switt was a serial offender. Everything he touched was dirty.

[VKurtB]

2 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

He seems to have alot of hostility to the dealers of the day and their somewhat-borderline method of getting access to difficult coins.

Yes, this is undeniably true. But it extends to a HUUUUUUGE swath of today’s dealers also. Oh, and a few major auction houses too.

Edited March 1, 2021 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

2 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

You do yourself a large disservice by misusing and abusing the word “everyone”. Since you’re well enough read to know what it means, I can only guess that you must be doing so in order to try to bolster your argument.
I don’t believe or agree that the coins were stolen, and neither do numerous other people, some of whom have posted here. Yet, despite the fact that you already knew that, you chose to say “everyone” anyway. You’re capable of much better.

I’m of the opinion that you like to get the last word, so please feel free to have at it. 

Okay then, everyone who can think and hasn’t fallen prey to an unhealthy emotional attachment to a particular element on the periodic table.

[GoldFinger1969]

23 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Izzy Switt was a serial offender. Everything he touched was dirty.

If he was...then why was he an honored VIP at the Philly Mint up through the 1960's ? 

Serial offender, dirty, entices cashiers to engage in illicit transactions -- I would think they wouldn't want the guy coming in once or twice a day for the next 25 years, right ?

Something doesn't add up, Kurt.  And it's not the gold balances. 

[MarkFeld]

9 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Mark, I think Kurt is sincere in his belief, just wrong.  He seems to have alot of hostility to the dealers of the day and their somewhat-borderline method of getting access to difficult coins.  Personally, I admire it.

Bowers tells of numerous Philly Mint employees going up to NYC and Boston (in addition to Philly) and trading the latest coins.  You can't tell me nobody wasn't looking to pick up some easy $$$ in The Depression by getting some of the 1933's in exchange for older coins.

Amazing that the same institutional arrogance and obsession exists 80 years later.  If they had this dedication on more important matters, they'd have tracked down that $5,000 in stolen 1928 Saints.

REALLY stolen.......

 

I understand that he believes the coins were stolen and he might even be correct. But that’s HIS belief. No matter how strong or well founded that belief might be, it’s absurd and laughable for him to state that “EVERYONE agrees the Farouk coin was stolen”. - especially when at least three posters have disagreed with his assertion in this very thread.

Edited March 1, 2021 by MarkFeld

[Henri Charriere]

I wish I could summon the courage to settle this once and for all but could we not say the same for George Metesky, the Shah of Iran, Pol Pot, el Chapo, Stalin in Russia, the Duvaliers in Haiti, Imelda Marcos in the Philippines, Pablo Escobar and the Sinaloa Cartel, Leona Helmsley, -- even Richard Nixon?

I am partial to the theory that water seeks it's own level.  The Good Book says all will be held to account. In comparison to Hutus vs Tutsis in Rwanda, the murders of 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- acts all of which have their supporters, the death camps in Germany and Poland, Red Army retaliation,  the Rape of Nanking and the handiwork of William Calley in the premediatated massacre of half a million unarmed civilians in My Lai in '68? Does the name Phan Thi Kim Phuc, the Nalalm Girl ring a bell? How about the Letelier car bombing in Washington, D.C.? And what was Dan Mitrione doing in Uruguay? 

The ice break from Atarctica's Brunt Ice Shelf,  reportedly the size of Manhattan, has greater consequences for the world's inhabitants than whether any group of people stole a roll or bag of gold dollars from the Mint. Saddam Hussein had three tractor trailer loads of largely United States currency transferred i.e., stolen in broad daylight from the central Bank in Baghdad simply on his say so and the $500,000 in gold reserves expropropriated to the United States by the U.S. Marines from Haiti in 1915 has far greater consequences than some gold pieces which may or may not have been stolen.  As my favorite commentator, VKURTB once urged, proportion, people, proportion. I concur.

P.S.  Overriding question:  How does one profit from the "theft" of something he cannot talk about, cannot display and cannot sell openly? As the president's mouth piece once observed:  Nobody cares about his tax returns anymore. Bottom line, dirty or not, was Izzy found guilty of anything at all?  No further questions. 

(I better go; I hear the Mods outside the door...)

[RonnieR131]

They're just mods, QA, not Dan Mitrione. Lol. ____ Stolen art etc... all over the world, just the way it is. Some would auction your soul for a 20 per cent cut. There's something about the words 'stolen' and 'Saints' that that doesn't look right, SG's look better.

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I wish I could summon the courage to settle this once and for all but could we not say the same for George Metesky, the Shah of Iran, Pol Pot, el Chapo, Stalin in Russia, the Duvaliers in Haiti, Imelda Marcos in the Philippines, Pablo Escobar and the Sinaloa Cartel, Leona Helmsley, -- even Richard Nixon?

I am partial to the theory that water seeks it's own level.  The Good Book says all will be held to account. In comparison to Hutus vs Tutsis in Rwanda, the murders of 100,000 civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki -- acts all of which have their supporters, the death camps in Germany and Poland, Red Army retaliation,  the Rape of Nanking and the handiwork of William Calley in the premediatated massacre of half a million unarmed civilians in My Lai in '68? Does the name Phan Thi Kim Phuc, the Nalalm Girl ring a bell? How about the Letelier car bombing in Washington, D.C.? And what was Dan Mitrione doing in Uruguay? 

The ice break from Atarctica's Brunt Ice Shelf,  reportedly the size of Manhattan, has greater consequences for the world's inhabitants than whether any group of people stole a roll or bag of gold dollars from the Mint. Saddam Hussein had three tractor trailer loads of largely United States currency transferred i.e., stolen in broad daylight from the central Bank in Baghdad simply on his say so and the $500,000 in gold reserves expropropriated to the United States by the U.S. Marines from Haiti in 1915 has far greater consequences than some gold pieces which may or may not have been stolen.  As my favorite commentator, VKURTB once urged, proportion, people, proportion. I concur.

P.S.  Overriding question:  How does one profit from the "theft" of something he cannot talk about, cannot display and cannot sell openly? As the president's mouth piece once observed:  Nobody cares about his tax returns anymore. Bottom line, dirty or not, was Izzy found guilty of anything at all?  No further questions. 

(I better go; I hear the Mods outside the door...)

Izzy is dead. Dead is forever. But Izzy also had a horrible reputation in Philadelphia’s Jewelers Row in Sansom Street as a con artist. And the Mint cashier was as slimy as anyone ever gets.

[VKurtB]

5 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

I understand that he believes the coins were stolen and he might even be correct. But that’s HIS belief. No matter how strong or well founded that belief might be, it’s absurd and laughable for him to state that “EVERYONE agrees the Farouk coin was stolen”. - especially when at least three posters have disagreed with his assertion in this very thread.

It’s also the unanimous opinion of the the twelve petit jury members who heard the Langbord case, a role which I have served as a jury foreman in the exact same courtroom, before Bush-43-appointed Legrome Davis, a highly honored Federal District Court Judge before whom I have also appeared. (Not the same case - 13 years separated.)

Note that even though it was a civil case, not criminal, yet jury unanimity was still present.

And Goldfinger69, the more you attempt to malign Judge Davis, the more silly you come off. I do not know him socially, but his colleague on that court, Judge Jeffrey Schmehl, is a personal friend who even performed my marriage, and he greatly respects Judge Davis. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

It’s also the unanimous opinion of the the twelve petit jury members who heard the Langbord case, a role which I have served as a jury foreman in the exact same courtroom, before Bush-43-appointed Legrome Davis, a highly honored Federal District Court Judge before whom I have also appeared. (Not the same case - 13 years separated.)  Note that even though it was a civil case, not criminal, yet jury unanimity was still present.

Legrome Davis 'aint no Nino Scalia, Kurt.  The guy had a LOUSY reputation even from folks who won in his courtroom.  

He'd fall asleep in court....let personal biases enter into decisisons....etc.  Check out those judge-rating websites which I viewed a few years ago.  He got roasted on lots of the cases he heard.

He wasn't a typical GOP judge, they just appointed him because no regular judges lived in Philly at the time.  I believe he got promoted by Obama.

Edited March 1, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

24 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Legrome Davis 'aint no Nino Scalia, Kurt.  The guy had a LOUSY reputation even from folks who won in his courtroom.  

He'd fall asleep in court....let personal biases enter into decisisons....etc.  Check out those judge-rating websites which I viewed a few years ago.  He got roased on lots of the cases he heard.

He wasn't a typical GOP judge, they just appointed him because no regular judges lived in Philly at the time.  I believe he got promoted by Obama.

He was appointed by Bush-43 and is now in senior status. There are no “non-corrupt” people of any type in Philadelphia local government. The Federal Courthouse is kept busy with local political corruption alone. It seems it included Chief Cashier McCann.

Edited March 1, 2021 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

And Goldfinger69, the more you attempt to malign Judge Davis, the more silly you come off. I do not know him socially, but his colleague on that court, Judge Jeffrey Schmehl, is a personal friend who even performed my marriage, and he greatly respects Judge Davis. 

I'm not "maligning" him, I'm going by the actual reviews of him as a judge -- which I will attempt to find and post here.  And in the 1933 Saint trial, he let Tripp go on and on without interruption, while subjecting RWB and others for the plaintiffs to numerous annoying disruptions and petty interruptions.

He CLEARLY had his mind made up, which explains why the U.S. attorneys went "judge-shopping" in his venue.

Edited March 1, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

7 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm not "maligning" him, I'm going by the actual reviews of him as a judge -- which I will attempt to find and post here.  And in the 1933 Saint trial, he let Tripp go on and on without interruption, while subjecting RWB and others for the plaintiffs to numerous annoying disruptions and petty interruptions.

He CLEARLY had his mind made up, which explains why the U.S. attorneys went "judge-shopping" in his venue.

Attempting to couch an opinion in the language of fact, and being chastised for it by a judge, is NOT “annoying disruptions and petty interruptions”; it is seeing to it that the federal Rules of Evidence are followed. 
 

We know for certain the witness in question does the above; he does it right here on these pages, as do I here, but not while on the stand in court. 

[VKurtB]

3 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm not "maligning" him, I'm going by the actual reviews of him as a judge -- which I will attempt to find and post here.  And in the 1933 Saint trial, he let Tripp go on and on without interruption, while subjecting RWB and others for the plaintiffs to numerous annoying disruptions and petty interruptions.

He CLEARLY had his mind made up, which explains why the U.S. attorneys went "judge-shopping" in his venue.

One does not need to judge or venue shop on a case that involves activities at the US Mint, which is literally viewable across the plaza from the United States District Court OR the Court of Appeals for the Third Circuit. You can pee across from one to the other with either a bit of elevation or a slight tailwind. With both, you might be able to aim OVER the Mint. News flash, GF1969, all federal judges deal nearly daily with federal officials of many types, and they tend to believe them in court. Only jurors like me acquit criminal defendants, for the presence of “reasonable doubt”, a concept that the 3 of us who voted Not Guilty on the first ballot had to “teach” the other 9 m-o-r-o-n-s about in the jury room.

[Henri Charriere]

3 hours ago, VKurtB said:

We know for certain the witness in question does the above; he does it right here on these pages, as do I here, but not while on the stand in court. 

[These are classic lines which will long be remembered in the annals of chatboard history.]😉

[VKurtB]

27 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[These are classic lines which will long be remembered in the annals of chatboard history.]😉

QA, have you ever served on a federal case jury? Civil or criminal? Have you ever testified as a fact or expert witness in a federal court trial? Have you ever sat through an entire “charge” or instructions from a judge? Have you sat though one that lasted across two days? I have done all of the above. I have in state courts litigated about 20 cases, most pro se. Once I argued a case pro se before the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, in the only subject matter where a pro se litigant CAN argue before the seven Justices, and wrote a brief FOR AN ATTORNEY in another similar one. I also taught hundreds of lawyers at a CLA course on that same subject matter, three times, which only one law school in the country even offers a course on.

Edited March 1, 2021 by VKurtB