New Article on the 1933 “Saints” 1 1

[Henri Charriere]

31 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

QA, have you ever served on a federal case jury? Civil or criminal? Have you ever testified as a fact or expert witness in a federal court trial? Have you ever sat through an entire “charge” or instructions from a judge? Have you sat though one that lasted across two days? I have done all of the above. I have in state courts litigated about 20 cases, most pro se. Once I argued a case pro se before the Pennsylvania Supreme Court, in the only subject matter where a pro se litigant CAN argue before the seven Justices, and wrote a brief FOR AN ATTORNEY in another similar one. I also taught hundreds of lawyers at a CLA course on that same subject matter, which only one law school in the country even offers a course on.

Judging by your resume and deeply-held beliefs, I think it safe to say that if you had sat on John J. Gotti's trial jury, the one in which a juror was compromised with a $60,000 bribe to throw the verdict, you likely would have been the first to be eliminated as a suspect. In my eyes, you can do no wrong and have more than the lares and penalties to back that up.  Or as the Philly underworld would put it:  "Dis guy here, Kurt, is a thoroughbred. Fuhgeddaboudit!  He's off-limits to everyone."  Said, of course, as a compliment!

[GoldFinger1969]

6 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[These are classic lines which will long be remembered in the annals of chatboard history.]😉

It has nothing to do with the substance of his arguments.  They dissed RWB as an "IT guy" --- what the HELL are THEIR qualifications in the field of numismatic research ?

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Judging by your resume and deeply-held beliefs, I think it safe to say that if you had sat on John J. Gotti's trial jury, the one in which a juror was compromised with a $60,000 bribe to throw the verdict, you likely would have been the first to be eliminated as a suspect. 

What was ridiculous about the later trials was that Gotti could NOT have his lawyer of choice, Bruce Cutler.  I have never heard of the courts deciding who your lawyer can be.

[Henri Charriere]

11 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

What was ridiculous about the later trials was that Gotti could NOT have his lawyer of choice, Bruce Cutler.  I have never heard of the courts deciding who your lawyer can be.

I have two observations to make about that, both off the top of my head.  1.  Extensive wiretaps, electronic surveillance, confidential informants, etc. disclosed Cutler was more than just an attorney. Judge Glasser famously described him as "house counsel," based on information we, the public, are not privy to. [I believe the wiretap placed upstairs over the Ravenite Social Club, where Gotti reigned King picked up a negative comment directly from his lips, complaining, in substance, ...this isn't just the Gambino family. This is the Gotti, Gravano, Cutler, etc crime family.] 

2.  I am really going out on a limb here but my gut feeling is Bruce Cutler probably felt relieved (in spite of the courtroom antics and show for the press). Any one of the many charges Gotti was charged with carried life and he had a significant informant, his right-hand man, who had made a plea deal and was ready, able, and willing to testify against him. The jig was up and Salvatore "Sammy the Bull" Gravano blinked first and reaped the benefit: all told no more than 5 years for 19 murders. Cutler, as bombastic as ever, objected but deep down inside "quit" with government assistance, while he was still ahead, record intact. He was more than pleased.

VKurtB may correct me if I am wrong but unlike the juvenile courts, all trials in Federal Court are held publicly and jurors' names are made known. The jury in Gotti's trial was sequestered and the defendants' families, news reporters and courthouse employees occupied most of the seats in the "open" courtroom. (The only real head-scratcher to come out of the Eastern District in Brooklyn was the wholly unanticipated (and possibly unprecedented) extradition recently of Salvador Cienfuegos, described variously as Mexico's defense secretary who had been charged, much like el Chapo, with facilitating the transportation of narcotics for a violent drug cartel.)  The FBI, DEA, USA's and the entire federal judicial system was livid.

[My thanks to VKurtB for permitting me to speak.]

[GoldFinger1969]

QA, well-reasoned....but to me, if any member of Gotti's inner circle was a lawyer and he wanted them to represent him, that request should have been honored.

You may be right on what Cutler really wanted, I've never seen or heard anything on it. 

BTW...I walked right past Spark's Steakhouse about 15 minutes before where Paul Castellano got rubbed out.  I was working in mid-town Manhattan at the time and worked late that night.

Edited March 2, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

33 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

QA, well-reasoned....but to me, if any member of Gotti's inner circle was a lawyer and he wanted them to represent him, that request should have been honored.

You may be right on what Cutler really wanted, I've never seen anything 

BTW...I walked right past Spark's Steakhouse about 15 minutes before where Paul Castellano got rubbed out.  I was working in mid-town Manhattan at the time and worked late that night.

I suspect the one person who knows the whole story is Bruce Mouw who was the FBI Supervisor of C-16, the squad assigned to investigate the illegal activities of the Gambino crime family in New York City.  Just think, the difference between being allowed to go about your business and being held at an undisclosed location as a material witness can sometimes be measured in just minutes. The lady of  Good Luck smiled on you that night.

[VKurtB]

7 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Judging by your resume and deeply-held beliefs, I think it safe to say that if you had sat on John J. Gotti's trial jury, the one in which a juror was compromised with a $60,000 bribe to throw the verdict, you likely would have been the first to be eliminated as a suspect. In my eyes, you can do no wrong and have more than the lares and penalties to back that up.  Or as the Philly underworld would put it:  "Dis guy here, Kurt, is a thoroughbred. Fuhgeddaboudit!  He's off-limits to everyone."  Said, of course, as a compliment!

Would it surprise you that for 8 years I sat in the adjacent office with my good friend and fellow numismatist (he’s into ancients) who was on Little Nicky Scarfo’s appellate defense team? I have broken bread with associates thereof. Of course my ultimate boss also was Sicilian, and he’s a sweetheart until he gets angry. I spent the last 12.5 years finding ways to say yes to his often legally sketchy requests while keeping us both out of trouble. He disinherited his kids and has me in his will. And I ran against him in the 1990’s.

Edited March 2, 2021 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

3 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I have two observations to make about that, both off the top of my head.  1.  Extensive wiretaps, electronic surveillance, confidential informants, etc. disclosed Cutler was more than just an attorney. Judge Glasser famously described him as "house counsel," based on information we, the public, are not privy to. [I believe the wiretap placed upstairs over the Ravenite Social Club, where Gotti reigned King picked up a negative comment directly from his lips, complaining, in substance, ...this isn't just the Gambino family. This is the Gotti, Gravano, Cutler, etc crime family.] 

2.  I am really going out on a limb here but my gut feeling is Bruce Cutler probably felt relieved (in spite of the courtroom antics and show for the press). Any one of the many charges Gotti was charged with carried life and he had a significant informant, his right-hand man, who had made a plea deal and was ready, able, and willing to testify against him. The jig was up and Salvatore "Sammy the Bull" Gravano blinked first and reaped the benefit: all told no more than 5 years for 19 murders. Cutler, as bombastic as ever, objected but deep down inside "quit" with government assistance, while he was still ahead, record intact. He was more than pleased.

VKurtB may correct me if I am wrong but unlike the juvenile courts, all trials in Federal Court are held publicly and jurors' names are made known. The jury in Gotti's trial was sequestered and the defendants' families, news reporters and courthouse employees occupied most of the seats in the "open" courtroom. (The only real head-scratcher to come out of the Eastern District in Brooklyn was the wholly unanticipated (and possibly unprecedented) extradition recently of Salvador Cienfuegos, described variously as Mexico's defense secretary who had been charged, much like el Chapo, with facilitating the transportation of narcotics for a violent drug cartel.)  The FBI, DEA, USA's and the entire federal judicial system was livid.

[My thanks to VKurtB for permitting me to speak.]

In underworld cases, the anonymity of jurors is often protected in part by importing jurors from across the state. In fact, that was one of the attempted (unsuccessful) appeals grounds my buddy pled in court. My buddy never knew the personal identity of the jurors, only their Juror number. Even in state courts in PA, jurors are often anonymous and are addressed during voir dire only by their juror number, and jurors are advised NEVER to say anything that might reveal their identity. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

12 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Just think, the difference between being allowed to go about your business and being held at an undisclosed location as a material witness can sometimes be measured in just minutes. The lady of  Good Luck smiled on you that night.

I saw the cop cars heading for 46th Street as I headed back down to 42nd Street where I worked (the old Grace Building).  Figured it was just another crime.  Then I got home later that night and watched all the local news at 10 PM and 11 PM and wow. 

[GoldFinger1969]

10 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Little Nicky Scarfo’s 

There was some younger "made man" or Mafia bigwig in Philly who used to hang out with Philadelphia Flyers star Eric Lindross -- who was that guy ?  Anybody ?  I didn't have access to the internet then, as I recall the guy told the media to back off Lindross he was just a fan of the teams.

[GoldFinger1969]

12 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

There was some younger "made man" or Mafia bigwig in Philly who used to hang out with Philadelphia Flyers star Eric Lindross -- who was that guy ?  Anybody ?  I didn't have access to the internet then, as I recall the guy told the media to back off Lindross he was just a fan of the teams.

Never mind...it was Joey Merlino. 

[VKurtB]

43 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Never mind...it was Joey Merlino. 

Yup. In one smaller city northwest of Philly, for many many years the area’s finest custom tailor was a cosa nostra bigwig. I had one of his suits when I was younger.

Edited March 2, 2021 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

16 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Yup.

As soon as the RICO act was passed l, 1970 (and the penalties for drug trafficking were exponentially increased) these guys should have seen the writing on the wall. Michael Franzese made it out (it didn't hurt to have a famous father) but unfortunately this was the only life they knew.  

[GoldFinger1969]

Away from The Mob and back to The Saints ......this is an excerpt from Bowers book from R.W. Julian on the famous "Froman Letter":

“…..The Bureau of the Mint (BOM) wrote Lewis Froman of Buffalo, NY indicating that gold bullion could be deposited and that it would be paid for by the mint in gold.  The letter, which was signed by Acting Director Mary M. O’Reilly in the absence of Director Robert J. Grant, noted that in this way ‘such a transaction neither increases nor depletes the stock of gold in the Treasury.”

According to accounts during the trial:

"Tripp characterized a March 7, 1933, wire from an assistant attorney general that said Mint supervisors could continue exchanging gold for gold coins as an orphan document. When asked to describe an orphan document, Tripp said it was akin to presenting only one side of a conversation, and to treat it with caution." 

[VKurtB]

21 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Away from The Mob and back to The Saints ......this is an excerpt from Bowers book from R.W. Julian on the famous "Froman Letter":

“…..The Bureau of the Mint (BOM) wrote Lewis Froman of Buffalo, NY indicating that gold bullion could be deposited and that it would be paid for by the mint in gold.  The letter, which was signed by Acting Director Mary M. O’Reilly in the absence of Director Robert J. Grant, noted that in this way ‘such a transaction neither increases nor depletes the stock of gold in the Treasury.”

According to accounts during the trial:

"Tripap characterized a March 7, 1933, wire from an assistant attorney general that said Mint supervisors could continue exchanging gold for gold coins as an orphan document. When asked to describe an orphan document, Tripp said it was akin to presenting only one side of a conversation, and to treat it with caution." 

The issue is twofold. 1) whether gold for gold transactions were covered under Roosevelt’s order (I believe it is clear they were.) and 2) it seems the documentation shows all 1933 Saints were struck AFTER Roosevelt’s order of March 1933. Why would they do that? Great question. More convenient to store and handle at a known fineness? Remember, this is all before the huge melt that created the now-standard Fort Knox sized ingots.

Edited March 2, 2021 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

Here's a timeline that may be of interest:

• March 2nd, 1933:  1st 1933 Saint-Gaudens DEs are struck.  The official Mint records and most previous sources do NOT cite March 2nd as the date of first striking, but March 15th.  Roger Burdette uncovered this discrepancy from a letter dated 1945.
• March 4th:  FDR sworn in as president
• March 5th:  Last official gold shipment to Federal Reserve banks leaves the Mint
• March 6th:  Treasury Secretary Woodin (a coin collector) orders Mint Director Robert J. Grant to not "pay out" any more gold.  Grant complies, with an addendum:  ".....this does not prohibit the deposit of gold and the usual payment thereof."
• March 7th:  A wire is sent from an Asst Attorney General stating that Mint personnel could continue exchanging gold coins for gold coins.
• March 15th:  A letter is sent by Acting Director Mary M. O'Reilly (Mint Director Robert J. Grant  was on leave) informing Lewis Froman of Buffalo, NY that he could deposit gold bullion directly at the Mint in exchange for gold coin because it "....neither increases nor depletes the stock of gold in the Treasury." 
• April 5th:  FDR's Executive Order 6102 goes into effect.
• April 12th:  Last "legal" day to participate in coin-for-coin exchanges.
• May(?)-June(?) - An entire bag (250) of 1928 Saint-Gaudens DEs is stolen from the Philly Mint vault.  The bag appears to have been stolen at the same time that 1933 Saints were placed in the vault.

Edited March 3, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

There are some interesting comments following the article.  Harvey Stack enters in and I chimed in a few thoughts (most of which I posted above in various posts).

Anyway, good additional reading if you liked the article, as I did.

[Henri Charriere]

[I am beginning to feel that with all this renewed interest, this is one cold case that is beginning to heat up...]

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[I am beginning to feel that with all this renewed interest, this is one cold case that is beginning to heat up...]

Unfortunately, aside from these message boards, no.  The coins remain at Fort Knox until I can get them out. 

[Cat Bath]

NEWS FLASH.... 1933 Double Eagle going on sale June 8th 2021 at Sotheby's

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/10/arts/design/stuart-weitzman-stamps-coin-auction.html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

Weitzman’s identity as the owner of the double eagle is being revealed here for the first time. Sotheby’s never revealed the buyer after the 2002 sale

Edited March 10, 2021 by Cat Bath

[Zebo]

4 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

NEWS FLASH.... 1933 Double Eagle going on sale June 8th 2021 at Sotheby's

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/10/arts/design/stuart-weitzman-stamps-coin-auction.html?action=click&module=News&pgtype=Homepage

Weitzman’s identity as the owner of the double eagle is being revealed here for the first time. Sotheby’s never revealed the buyer after the 2002 sale

Its on my calendar!

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Zebo said:

Its on my calendar!

Happy Bidding !!  

[GoldFinger1969]

What a bunch of : 

Edited March 11, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[zadok]

d*** it stuart, i said u could borrow it, didnt say u could sell it....

[GoldFinger1969]

$10-$15 MM early estimate for the bidding for both the 1933 Saint and the Inverted Jenny.

Wonder if the 1856 stamp might beat both........

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Dave1384]

On 2/28/2021 at 1:54 PM, numisport said:

The chain of events is difficult for me to ponder. What made me laugh when this all started is when it was explained that these 10 Saints were FOUND in a safe deposit box. What a joke really ?

I thought this was a good read by the way.

In the mid 1990s I stopped in at a coin shop which also dabbled in antiques near where I worked and lived. Suburban Philadelphia.  I don’t recall how the subject of these Saints came up but they did. The owner of the shop told me there were 10 more “ out there”, but told me not to say anything. I didn’t, because it was not my concern  but I found it intriguing. I seem to remember  the name Langbord was mentioned but that person wasn’t involved. So it is quite possible she was unaware. But I do not know . 

I’ve always remembered that encounter whenever I read about this coin.  I heard it, but never thought to reveal it. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Dave1384

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, Dave1384 said:

In the mid 1990s I stopped in at a coin shop which also dabbled in antiques near where I worked and lived. Suburban Philadelphia.  I don’t recall how the subject of these Saints came up but they did. The owner of the shop told me there were 10 more “ out there”, but told me not to say anything. I didn’t, because it was not my concern  but I found it intriguing. I seem to remember  the name Langbord was mentioned but that person wasn’t involved. So it is quite possible she was unaware. But I do not know .  I’ve always remembered that encounter whenever I read about this coin.  I heard it, but never thought to reveal it. 

The Switt-Langbord Jewelry/Antique/Coin store was still in operation up to a few years ago.  It's right in Philadelphia.

[Dave1384]

The one I visited  was in Abington. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Dave1384

[GoldFinger1969]

BTW, that "Certificate of Monetization" looks like something you get at the local Kinko's to give to kids who all participated in the Tug Of War Rope thing at summer camp.  

You'd think after clearing $3.8 million or so that the government would have spent maybe $100 getting something nice with embossed letters, quality printing, etc.