192? Peace Dollar 0

[Sharann]

I have a Peace Dollar which I am thinking someone must've made a necklace out of because it has a hole drilled through it. It just so happens that this hole is through the last number in the date. I have read and found a few identifying marks that would help to determine the year but the quality of this one is not where I can identify it by them. It seems as though it was a very shallow strike because it is almost smooth to touch. 

[Mr.Bill347]

The Peace Dollar began in 1922. Must have been worn around someone’s neck for many years to wear it like that. It’s all post mint damage and the hole makes it pretty much melt value.

I just had a 1922 graded as an ms63 and it’s only worth $50

Edited February 19, 2021 by Mr.Bill347
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[JKK]

It actually looks like it may originally have been a decent strike. Take a look at the rims, which were once full (if perhaps not deep). I have Peaces that have such terrible strikes that they never had rims, just diagonal beveling connecting edge to surface. The lettering has survived enough to make me think it must once have been decent, if perhaps not sharp.

[RWB]

Nice to see a new member - especially from the frozen land of Mississippi !

A couple of observations....The hole was likely not drilled - it is too irregular. Punched with an awl or nail...? (Nope, not a bullet hole.)

The location of the hole is odd - in a necklace or bracelet the coin would not hang straight. That is, the portrait or eagle would always be tilted.

Size of the hole is contrary to jewelry use, where perforations are intended to be hidden, not exposed. Raised rim to the hole is also not usually seen on jewelry.

A jewelry coin will often have uneven wear, where as this coin seems to have uniform abrasion on both sides.

If linked to other coins there should be two holes, and metal links usually wear the hole irregularly - oval, not nearly round.

A possibility is that it was used as a substitute for a small machine part that was positioned with a pin through the hole. If the edge is smooth, that is more likely. If still reeded, then a little less likely.

OK....just some thoughts. Hope you folks thaw out soon!

Edited February 19, 2021 by RWB

[Sharann]

@Mr.Bill347@Mr.Bill347 while I was trying to see if I could find a way to determine the date, without the actual date, I learned several interesting facts, or so they are stated as so anyway. @RWBstated a few things that got me thinking. (I am an overthinker anyway so that doesn't take much. ) While reading about these dollars, the earlier ones which were struck in December, 1921, were intended to have all been melted. Which they probably were... But, just think, what IF @RWBis correct in his theory of it being used on some type of machine and it was used at the mint and never destroyed? Wouldn't this be an amazing piece of history? I know we will never know, but I guess as long as we don't don't either way it could still be possibility. Lol

@RWBthanks for the greeting and yes we are frozen in Mississippi and I have thoroughly enjoyed getting to be a part of such an amazing group of such knowledgeable and kind people. That was a great observation about the rim inside the hole. I have looked at this for a long time and never realized it was there. 🤦🏼‍♀️🤷🏼‍♀️

@JKKI wish I had the writing skills to perfectly explain how this coin feels. I was thinking, of course I am very new to this and learning every second, that because it is mostly smooth that it must've been shallow but I see what you are saying now. In other words, I smell what you cookin'! Lol. Anyway, had it been shallow, well it would probably have nothing, or hardly anything, visible now. I can feel that the letters in LIBERTY are raised, but barely. Her head and hair protrude from the field just enough to make the coin not lie evenly on the table.  The eagle on the reverse protrudes about the same, just ever so slightly to make it rattle when you walk. All the letters on the reverse ars smooth and the edge is not as distinguishible as on the obverse, yet still slightly raised. I hope all my terminology was correct. Whew, that was a mouthful 😊

[JKK]

It takes seeing a lot of Peaces to start to get a feel for which ones are badly struck to begin with, which is quite a few. What helps most is to understand exactly how the mint makes the coins. Rims happen because the die mushrooms the metal outside them, contained by a collar which is how the milling is created. Devices happen because the die mooshes the metal upward into its cavities. So if the strike sucks, maybe it doesn't hit the coin hard enough to mushroom the metal into rims. It also may not fill the dies' cavities to their highest points, or perhaps even perceptibly.

In Peaces, the ear hair curls are a high point that is often weak; on the reverse, the lettering often doesn't strike up. In extreme cases, the rims don't even exist. So, for example, you could have an uncirculated Peace dollar where you wouldn't see a rim, or the ear hair is flat, and might suppose this to be wear, but they might never have existed on that coin. I guess the moral of the story is: each coin issue has its peculiarities (for example, the head rarely struck up well on Standing Liberty quarters; full head examples are prized), and an understanding of the minting process is of enormous value to the collector. And that's especially true for ancients, which are my particular area of interest, back when the striking happened with a lot of elbow grease and muscle.

If that fascinates you, superb. Welcome to a hobby that will offer you a lifetime of learning and depth. I would also point out, in case it matters, that I'm seeing a distinct uptick in the number of women taking an interest in the hobby. I think this is fantastic for half a dozen different reasons, starting with the new brainpower and energy the women are bringing. At our club's virtual meeting last night, nineteen in attendance, three were women and three were YNs (kids). One of the women is on the club's board (and she could be elected to any office she might wish, were she to stand as a candidate) and has transformed its visual presentations, as well as earning increasing respect for her understanding of world coinage. I guess what I'm saying is that if there's a perception that this is a hobby of insular grumpy old guys, I'm seeing that perception become increasingly outdated. There is probably a coin club in your area (I can help you hunt for one if you like), and you can learn a heck of a lot there. Great place to take your coins and get opinions, answers, suggestions. Don't be shy.

[Sharann]

Well, shy is one thing I have never been accused of being and I don't plan to start now. I would love to know if there is a coin club nearby. I've lived here my whole life so I am sure there'd be someone familiar in the bunch, if there is one close. And, yes, as I am sure you know, when more women get involved EVERYTHING changes. I am on the school board where I live... No men at all... 5,yes,5 of us women. When it is good, it is great. However, when someone isn't happy... Well, I'll just say there's no median for us. Lol. It will definitely shed new light on things as we see one thing while men see another. 

[Just Bob]

I don't think it was a necklace. Judging by the position and condition of the hole and the wear on both sides, I am thinking either watch fob, or keychain.

[JKK]

10 minutes ago, Sharann said:

Well, shy is one thing I have never been accused of being and I don't plan to start now. I would love to know if there is a coin club nearby. I've lived here my whole life so I am sure there'd be someone familiar in the bunch, if there is one close. And, yes, as I am sure you know, when more women get involved EVERYTHING changes. I am on the school board where I live... No men at all... 5,yes,5 of us women. When it is good, it is great. However, when someone isn't happy... Well, I'll just say there's no median for us. Lol. It will definitely shed new light on things as we see one thing while men see another. 

And that's the spice of life.

For ANA member clubs, I found one in Southaven and one in Vicksburg. No idea how close those might be to you. If you are near a border, we might search that area. Here is a link so you can check it out, since the only things I know about MS geography is it touches the Gulf of Mexico and is between Alabama and Louisiana. It looks like both clubs sponsor regular coin shows, which is one of the customary ways clubs make money so they can have nice things. Ours (in Portland, Oregon) has one in October, but there are nearby clubs that also have their own, and we all sort of support and know each other, and many of our members visit their shows as well; I think there's also a club on the Washington side, in Van. Anyway, either of the clubs on the ANA list would probably be able to give you good information based on your area.

[Sharann]

@JKKSouthaven is only about 30 minutes away! I'm sorry, I guess I could've saved you a little time and effort if I'd told you where I live. I live in a little town called Strayhorn, between Tunica and Senatobia. I will definitely check the Southaven one out. I am usually there a couple of times a month anyway. 

[Sharann]

@Just BobI am really intrigued by this Peace. It's history could possibly tell so much! 

[JKK]

Just now, Sharann said:

@JKKSouthaven is only about 30 minutes away! I'm sorry, I guess I could've saved you a little time and effort if I'd told you where I live. I live in a little town called Strayhorn, between Tunica and Senatobia. I will definitely check the Southaven one out. I am usually there a couple of times a month anyway. 

No worries. They are probably meeting on Zoom right now, like us, but you can still get in touch and get notified with a Zoom meeting link. Ours typically has a howdy session at the start, whatever new business exists (budget report, project progress), YN and adult member presentations, and then the coin drawing. When we meet in person, it's longer because the howdy session is an extra hour with a bourse (people selling coins), raffle ticket sales, general convo and banter, before we get into the main meeting. I bet they could enrich your numismatic experience a great deal.

[RWB]

2 hours ago, Sharann said:

While reading about these dollars, the earlier ones which were struck in December, 1921, were intended to have all been melted. Which they probably were...

Not sure where the above came from, but it is completely wrong. 1921-date Peace dollars were struck during the last few days of 1921. The 1922 low relief design did not begin production until February 1922. The reason: relief on the 1921 coins was too high and the design did not strike-up well. The sculptor, de Francisci, remodeled both sides in lower relief during Jan-Feb 1922.

None of the coins for 1921 were destroyed. Some pattern and experimental pieces made in Jan 1922 from high relief dies were melted after tests proved them to be unsatisfactory.[See Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921 and A Guide Book of Peace Dollars for details.

Edited February 20, 2021 by RWB

[Sharann]

Wow! See, I am glad someone knows. I will have to send you the link that I was reading that from. There's no telling what is wrong in my head now. Thank you for the info. I will check out the resources you sent also. What or where should I go for reference to ensure fact? Will the resources you gave  me be all I would need?  I'm gona find that link so I can send it to you. If my child had been doing something for school, that would've messed him or her up! 

[Woods020]

1 minute ago, Sharann said:

Wow! See, I am glad someone knows. I will have to send you the link that I was reading that from. There's no telling what is wrong in my head now. Thank you for the info. I will check out the resources you sent also. What or where should I go for reference to ensure fact? Will the resources you gave  me be all I would need?  I'm gona find that link so I can send it to you. If my child had been doing something for school, that would've messed him or her up! 

Sharann,

 

I am your neighbor up the road in Alabama. RWB (Roger Burdette) is actually the author of both of those reference books he pointed you to. Just to let you know the quality of information you are getting. 
 

I think it’s amazing your son has these coins to remember his father by. Hopefully it will push him to enjoy numismatics.  

[RWB]

6 minutes ago, Sharann said:

Wow! See, I am glad someone knows. I will have to send you the link that I was reading that from. There's no telling what is wrong in my head now. Thank you for the info. I will check out the resources you sent also. What or where should I go for reference to ensure fact? Will the resources you gave  me be all I would need?  I'm gona find that link so I can send it to you. If my child had been doing something for school, that would've messed him or her up! 

Both books include modern, factual research, and have won numerous awards. I let the data tell the story. You can borrow both books through your local, thawed-out, local library under standard "interlibrary loan" (ILL). Typical loan cost is $1 or $2.

As to the source of the false statement, any organization that publishes such obvious bunk is unlikely to offer anything trustworthy.

[Sharann]

2 minutes ago, Woods020 said:

Sharann,

 

I am your neighbor up the road in Alabama. RWB (Roger Burdette) is actually the author of both of those reference books he pointed you to. Just to let you know the quality of information you are getting. 
 

I think it’s amazing your son has these coins to remember his father by. Hopefully it will push him to enjoy numismatics.  

Thank you so much for the information. I am sure he probably would have never told me either. Only because he has better character than that.

But I just have to ask you a question.. 

Do you have a foot of snow on the ground too? Or did we just get our once in a blue moon ice/snow this year?

[Sharann]

2 minutes ago, RWB said:

Both books include modern, factual research, and have won numerous awards. I let the data tell the story. You can borrow both books through your local, thawed-out, local library under standard "interlibrary loan" (ILL). Typical loan cost is $1 or $2.

As to the source of the false statement, any organization that publishes such obvious bunk is unlikely to offer anything trustworthy.

I wish there was a love emoji because you made me literally LOL at your library statement. I think I am just gonna see if they are on Amazon so I can keep them for as long as I want to. 

[JKK]

4 minutes ago, Sharann said:

I wish there was a love emoji because you made me literally LOL at your library statement. I think I am just gonna see if they are on Amazon so I can keep them for as long as I want to. 

By the way, if you join the ANA, you get library privileges. Long as you don't mind paying the shipping both ways plus any necessary insurance, you can borrow some seriously rare and deep materials. It works; I borrowed one of their Mitchiner volumes for a brain-slamming project involving Afghan, Persian, and Mughal coinage. That sucker costs over $600 to purchase outright, if one can find a copy.

[Sharann]

Well, if those books cost that much I'll surely be using the library. Our local library, though still frozen, hasn't been open since covid began. I am bit really sure if they are gonna reopen. So sad. Although computers are great, I love books. 

[RWB]

FYI - A great deal of numismatic "information" on the web is incorrect, incomplete, obsolete or simply lies invented by perverted misanthropes.

Sorry your local library is closed. Many across the country have remained open but with various operating differences and mask requirements. The ones where I live - Loudoun County, VA - have a wide range of active programs...and this is in an area with a lot of Covid limitations and restrictions.

[Sharann]

I am just gonna order them tomorrow. I actually just pulled the first one up on ebay to order and when my PayPal account acct popped up ii remembered that I couldn't get to the a k today to get a new debit card. Someone phished through Netflix and hit my other number. So much hassle to have to deal with! 😬

[Just Bob]

What Mr. Burdette said is absolutely true: the internet is full of misinformation and lies, and many things that you read and watch online need to be verified by a reliable source. Much of the information is just repetition of errors from earlier works. Mr. Burdette researches his books using information gleaned from historical documents from the mint, and other places. Mr. David Lange, director of research at NGC, and a poster on this forum, is another trustworthy author whose books are a good addition to any numismatic library.

I am not saying that it is impossible, or even hard, to find reliable information on the web, you just need to make sure the source is trustworthy. Youtube, for example, seems to be full of sensationalist videos whose sole reason for existence is to get views. Probably best to stay away from there, when looking for information on coins.

[Sharann]

I am learning that more and more. I am going to order the two books he suggested and try to make sure what I am readi g is a reliable source. For sure! 

[RWB]

9 hours ago, Just Bob said:

What Mr. Burdette said is .... Mr. Burdette researches his books ....

OK. Who's this "Mr. Burdette" you refer to ? No need for such formality. "Roger," or whatever spelling one prefers, if fine.

[Sharann]

@Just BobI think Mr. Burdette, excuse me,  Mr. Roger, is talking to you. LOL

Well I may be wrong, but, as a fellow Mississippian, I think @Just Bob probably said Mr. Burdette out of sheer habit (and, of course, utmost respect). I say sir, ma'am, Mr, Ms, to EVERYONE. Younger and older.

1. It just sounds better. 

2. My momma would have gotten me good if I hadn't, (and still would) ... so it is a habit. 

3. I will get mine good if they don't, so I make sure to keep it a habit so they will. 

4. The lessons taught were that it ain't gonna hurt you to say it whether they are younger or older, but if you don't say it and should've then you are gonna get hurt for sure! Do it is best just to say it. 

And that, folks, is our Sweet Southern Tea lesson for today. 😭

 

[Hoghead515]

19 minutes ago, Sharann said:

@Just BobI think Mr. Burdette, excuse me,  Mr. Roger, is talking to you. LOL

Well I may be wrong, but, as a fellow Mississippian, I think @Just Bob probably said Mr. Burdette out of sheer habit (and, of course, utmost respect). I say sir, ma'am, Mr, Ms, to EVERYONE. Younger and older.

1. It just sounds better. 

2. My momma would have gotten me good if I hadn't, (and still would) ... so it is a habit. 

3. I will get mine good if they don't, so I make sure to keep it a habit so they will. 

4. The lessons taught were that it ain't gonna hurt you to say it whether they are younger or older, but if you don't say it and should've then you are gonna get hurt for sure! Do it is best just to say it. 

And that, folks, is our Sweet Southern Tea lesson for today. 😭

 

I do the same thing. I sir and ma'am everyone. That's how I was raised. 

[RWB]

My students used to call me "Mr. B" or "Mr. Burdette." Soccer team always used "Coach" as if i was a handbag brand...;)  The late wife called me "%$#&*%^^&" or similar. My daughters call me "Dad." I guess we all have many "names" depending on context, familiarity, custom, etc. Respect, however, is not in a name or title but in an attitude, and an earned attribute.

Well -- that's way off topic.

Unless the 192X dollar can be connected to some family member or event, it's value is in the silver it contains.

[Conder101]

On 2/19/2021 at 6:42 PM, Just Bob said:

Judging by the position and condition of the hole and the wear on both sides, I am thinking either watch fob, or keychain.

That was my thought as well.  Also the larger "jump ring' of a key chian or watch fob will tend to create that raised ring around the hole on both sides and the coin and ring move around.

I also tend to use formal titles until the person gives me permission to do otherwise.  It's just proper manners.  (I am also old enough that I was trained that if in writing the persons gender is not known, "he" or you are the proper pronouns to use.  I get jumped on sometimes by women when I use "he" but it is what I was taught was correct.), 

[Sharann]

15 minutes ago, Conder101 said:

That was my thought as well.  Also the larger "jump ring' of a key chian or watch fob will tend to create that raised ring around the hole on both sides and the coin and ring move around.

I also tend to use formal titles until the person gives me permission to do otherwise.  It's just proper manners.  (I am also old enough that I was trained that if in writing the persons gender is not known, "he" or you are the proper pronouns to use.  I get jumped on sometimes by women when I use "he" but it is what I was taught was correct.), 

@Conder101 I am just plain ole Sharann all the time, no formalities necessary. And he is also what I was taught when gender is unknown. I have gotten fussed at about it too by other women, but as long as I know what I am then I don't really think it matters anyway. 🤷🏼‍♀️I have three children and have learned to pick my battles and to not sweat the small stuff. Just my thoughts though.

I am sure I will never know the story behind the coin, so I am learning that I have to just stick with what I do know (or what y'all can tell me). 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Sharann
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