2020 penny 0

[Tridmn]

This cant be MD. Not with everything I have found. Full shouts of pennies obverse and reverse arent the clearest from my phone.

[Tridmn]

Weight, 2.5g

Edited January 6, 2021 by Tridmn
Give accurate weight

[Tridmn]

Will no one even look at this, or all the pics I posted? Need more of a professional opinion PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!

[Moxie15]

So, what do you think it is?

The hub was pressed into the die steel once, so true double dies are impossible now.

Can you describe a process that would cause this that would show it is other than a form of machine or strike doubling?

 

[Coinbuf]

Everything I see in your photos looks like strike doubling mixed with some die deterioration.   If you look at the areas that seem doubled they are either squishy and/or lower in relief than the  main design letters.  That is because strike doubling happens when the dies are loose and they bounce at the time of striking which creates a second image that is lower than the main image/lettering.  The ghostly looking parts can come from die deterioration or it happens because the copper plating is squeezed and deformed a little bit.  This is very noticeable when you see a sliver of silver next to the letters and is called split plate doubling because the copper platting had been split open.

 

None of this is a true double die because it happens due to striking issues, but these issues are within the mint tolerance for quality control.  A true double die happens because the die itself has a double image pressed into it at the time the die is hubbed, in years previously the dies were pressed into the hub more than one time.  As @Moxie15 noted the mint now uses a singe squeeze method to hub the dies so true doubled die coins are almost impossible on modern coinage.

[VKurtB]

19 hours ago, Tridmn said:

Will no one even look at this, or all the pics I posted? Need more of a professional opinion PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!

Posting lots of pics is not the object of this exercise. Just one properly placed and photographed is often enough. In this case, all these prove nothing other than what you have already stated you think it can’t be.

[Just Bob]

How many coins are pictured in your photos?

[Tridmn]

2 hours ago, Just Bob said:

How many coins are pictured in your photos?

Just 1

[Just Bob]

6 hours ago, Tridmn said:

Just 1

Can't be, unless your coin has two different dates, and you removed the spots off of parts of the coins and replaced them with other spots.

[Tridmn]

1. i did post 2 didnt I? I will straighten that out.

[Just Bob]

It will not change the facts, though. Neither of the coins shows hub doubling. Some very cool looking strike doubling, though. Unfortunately, just not valuable.

[RWB]

Coinbuf's comments are correct.

Do some research into how strike doubling/mechanical doubling occurs. (You can also look in the book "From Mine to Mint" where the cause is explained and illustrated. You can buy the book or borrow it from your local library through ILL.)

[Tridmn]

On 1/8/2021 at 12:04 PM, RWB said:

Coinbuf's comments are correct.

Do some research into how strike doubling/mechanical doubling occurs. (You can also look in the book "From Mine to Mint" where the cause is explained and illustrated. You can buy the book or borrow it from your local library through ILL.)

Do you not see how the double is the same height? Perhaps you need to see it personally. 1 press or 2 press; this is a double die. Not mechanical issues. Even if it were, that is a double. If it was an '82 you would call it doubling, correct? Because of 2 presses. I'm simply asking you to look closer and deeper than what you just may or may not glance at due to date. Same height, follows pattern of original letters or numbers. Very easy to see. Only look at pics before second date. Ty for observation sir.

[Tridmn]

On 1/7/2021 at 6:34 PM, VKurtB said:

Posting lots of pics is not the object of this exercise. Just one properly placed and photographed is often enough. In this case, all these prove nothing other than what you have already stated you think it can’t be.

Same answer as above; only I wanted to show each angle. Wanted everyone to see what I was able to see. In such case multiple pics should be posted....sir. would you settle for just one if you found multiple errors? I suspect not. 

[Moxie15]

1 hour ago, Tridmn said:

Do you not see how the double is the same height? Perhaps you need to see it personally. 1 press or 2 press; this is a double die. Not mechanical issues. Even if it were, that is a double. If it was an '82 you would call it doubling, correct? Because of 2 presses. I'm simply asking you to look closer and deeper than what you just may or may not glance at due to date. Same height, follows pattern of original letters or numbers. Very easy to see. Only look at pics before second date. Ty for observation sir.

I just don't get it. You have been informed by some of the best professional numismatists that it is not a doubled die yet you insist it is.  If it was a 1982 or an 1882 it would still be machine doubling. 

[Tridmn]

43 minutes ago, Moxie15 said:

I just don't get it. You have been informed by some of the best professional numismatists that it is not a doubled die yet you insist it is.  If it was a 1982 or an 1882 it would still be machine doubling. 

Sure they are some of the best. You dont hold the coin in your hand; look at details by eye and by microscope. I appreciate your honesty. However, without seeing the coin yourself and how each part of the doubling is the same height. You are unable to see full potential of coin. Perhaps it is MD. Does that make it less doubled?  Especially when all parts are equally as high as the counter? MD is still doubling. Do you disagre with that statement? If I send this coin to be graded and they say ddo and ddr, then what? Will you still disagree; or will you and others submit? If no ddo or ddr existed today, then please tell me how it still does. That isnt according to me, but experts. So, would you please tell me?

[Moxie15]

3 hours ago, Tridmn said:

Sure they are some of the best. You dont hold the coin in your hand; look at details by eye and by microscope. I appreciate your honesty. However, without seeing the coin yourself and how each part of the doubling is the same height. You are unable to see full potential of coin. Perhaps it is MD. Does that make it less doubled?  Especially when all parts are equally as high as the counter? MD is still doubling. Do you disagre with that statement? If I send this coin to be graded and they say ddo and ddr, then what? Will you still disagree; or will you and others submit? If no ddo or ddr existed today, then please tell me how it still does. That isnt according to me, but experts. So, would you please tell me?

IF you send that coin to be graded and it comes back DDO or DDR then that grading service is worthless. That coin shows almost every diagnostic trait of being struck with a die that was not properly secured in the collet. MD or machine doubling is common and has no premium. It is akin to what a machinist calls chatter, the tool was not held tight against the work surface causing extra marks. With a die press the tool is die, the die is just slightly loose so it bounces slightly. This is more akin to a double struck than a double die.

The phenomenon is very common and has no premium. NOW IF you do not believe the  numismatists who have told you what it is, nor believe me because I am just a collector who collects for his own pleasure than go ahead and send your coin to our host.

[VKurtB]

7 hours ago, Tridmn said:

MD is still doubling. Do you disagre with that statement?

Yes, I disagree with that statement and so will any numismatist worth his salt. MD is meaningless and unimportant numismatically.

[Coinbuf]

7 hours ago, Tridmn said:

Sure they are some of the best. You dont hold the coin in your hand; look at details by eye and by microscope. I appreciate your honesty. However, without seeing the coin yourself and how each part of the doubling is the same height. You are unable to see full potential of coin. Perhaps it is MD. Does that make it less doubled?  Especially when all parts are equally as high as the counter? MD is still doubling. Do you disagre with that statement? If I send this coin to be graded and they say ddo and ddr, then what? Will you still disagree; or will you and others submit? If no ddo or ddr existed today, then please tell me how it still does. That isnt according to me, but experts. So, would you please tell me?

If you send that to a reputable TPG like NGC, PCGS or ANACS I am extremely confidant that you will not receive back a coin in a holder where the label reads DDO or DDR.  Now if you send it to Joe's basement slabbing service no doubt that they will put anything you want on the label.  So I challenge you to do just that, please send this in to NGC, show us the submission number, and show us the result of your submission.  One thing is certain, you will be proven right or wrong; my guess is you will not take this challenge and/or show the results because you know we are correct but please prove me wrong.  I have no problem with eating crow if I'm proven wrong, how about you?