From Mine to Mint 2 2

[Hoghead515]

On the newer proofs I always liked that tunnel effect that you can see when you turn it a certain way. I know you all know what im talking about. What is the proper term for that effect?  Where the device keeps repeating itself down deep into the field of the coin. Like on that old movie "Spaceballs," where they are watching themselves on TV. Lol. It gives that effect. 

[Ray, USMC]

I think what you are talking about is called, Deep Mirror Proof, but I could be wrong.

[Hoghead515]

21 minutes ago, Ray, USMC said:

I think what you are talking about is called, Deep Mirror Proof, but I could be wrong.

I love that look. I can just sit and look at a coin and look at that for an hr. Turning it and admiring it. 

[Ray, USMC]

True love of coins and minting is what causes that, you are truly a coin-aholic and that is a wonderful thing.

[GoldFinger1969]

Deep or Ultra Cameo, Hog ?

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

On the newer proofs I always liked that tunnel effect that you can see when you turn it a certain way. I know you all know what im talking about. What is the proper term for that effect?  Where the device keeps repeating itself down deep into the field of the coin. Like on that old movie "Spaceballs," where they are watching themselves on TV. Lol. It gives that effect. 

I hope this doesn't mean we have to end this thread now.

When ?

Now.

When is now ?

We just missed it....

When ?

Now !!!

 

[Hoghead515]

I thought that cameo was the frostiness look on the devices themselves. I was talking about in the mirror finish in the field how you can see the reflection of the device in it in repetition. 

[Hoghead515]

I must've had it wrong. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

 

1 hour ago, Hoghead515 said:

I thought that cameo was the frostiness look on the devices themselves.

That's right, the contrast of the devices against the fields.

1 hour ago, Hoghead515 said:

I was talking about in the mirror finish in the field how you can see the reflection of the device in it in repetition. 

I'm not sure what that effect is called, "Deep Mirror Proof" sounds good to me.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Fenntucky Mike
spelling

[Hoghead515]

I got rained out from work today so I decided to do some more reading. I just got done with the section that talks about the price of proofs in 1859. Its amazing of how low of a price you could get one back then and now they are worth thousands of dollars. A proof double eagle was $20.30 and im afraid to price one as of today. I bet the Mint officials in 1859 never dreamed the collector prices of today. Man if there were only a time machine. Lol. 

[RWB]

The value of proof coins did not increase much until the late 1940s and 50s. In earlier collection auctions it was normal to see long runs of original proof sets - sometimes in custom made cases -  sell for just a few dollars over face value. Most of us wish we had a time machine and a bag of old cash.

[GoldFinger1969]

3 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

I got rained out from work today so I decided to do some more reading. I just got done with the section that talks about the price of proofs in 1859. Its amazing of how low of a price you could get one back then and now they are worth thousands of dollars. A proof double eagle was $20.30 and im afraid to price one as of today. I bet the Mint officials in 1859 never dreamed the collector prices of today. Man if there were only a time machine. Lol. 

Modern coins and recent coins didn't appreciate.  The auctions for Morgan Silver Dollars in the late-1800's and early-1900's were for $1.05 or $1.20 at most for coins with a face value and silver content of $1.00.

The 1907 High Relief -- something of a frenzy back then like those San Francisco Enhanced ASEs of 2019 or the privy mark Gold/Silver 75th WW II coins -- sold for $25 and maybe $30 right out of the gate then fell back below $25 a year or two later.

A decade or so later they were $21 or $22, tops.

[GoldFinger1969]

3 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

I just got done with the section that talks about the price of proofs in 1859. Its amazing of how low of a price you could get one back then and now they are worth thousands of dollars. A proof double eagle was $20.30 and im afraid to price one as of today.

I'm not.....

An 1859 Proof Liberty DE in 2004 (from the Red Book) cost $22,500 in MS-60 and $250,000 in MS-65.

I'm sure the prices are higher, wouldn't surprise me if the prices had doubled since then.

 

Edited January 4, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Hoghead515]

2 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'm not.....

An 1859 Proof Libert DE in 2004 (from the Red Book) cost $22,500 in MS-60 and $250,000 in MS-65.

I'm sure the prices are higher, wouldn't surprise me if the prices had doubled since then.

 

Been nice to have a big hoard of them. Lol. It be hard for me to sell them though. Im a coin hoarder. I dont know tho. Thats alot of money. Be hard to let them go. 

[GoldFinger1969]

11 hours ago, RWB said:

The value of proof coins did not increase much until the late 1940s and 50s.

All coins, not just proofs it seems, from the auction footnotes in the DE Red Book and also in your Saints book.

I can't prove it....but I'll bet that if the price of those 1933 Saints in the early-1940's was closer to $35 instead of $350......the Feds don't care about their release.   Instead, you had a bunch of anti-FDR, anti-gold confiscation bootleggers making 2x or 3x or 5x or 10x on coins that never had an "official" release.

No wonder the Feds were a bit peeved. 

11 hours ago, RWB said:

In earlier collection auctions it was normal to see long runs of original proof sets - sometimes in custom made cases -  sell for just a few dollars over face value. Most of us wish we had a time machine and a bag of old cash.

Yup, and the demographics of the Baby Boom and the post-WW II economic environment were big tailwinds to all coin prices.

Edited January 5, 2021 by GoldFinger1969

[Hoghead515]

This book is so well written a person could almost mint coins after reading it. If he had all the equipment and materials. Lol. Except for the die engraving. We would have to strike stick men on them or smiley faces if I was the one engraving the dies. I know it would never happen. Im just trying to say how well in depth it describes every detail. Im planning on reading Mr. Lange's book also in the near future that RWB referd to me. What is the name of it again? I'll try to find where to purchase it and maybe sometime try to have him autograph it for me. But I recommend every collector read FMTM. It will give you a whole new respect to collecting the older coins knowing what the workers went thru to mint them. Even the newer coins also. Shows how it all started and advanced over time. Id love to see some of that old equipment in person sometime. Alot of it is probably sitting in a museum somewhere. I know it will never happen but id love to be able to play on it and strike so coins. That would have been a dream job back in those days. I love working on and with equipment and motors and all sorts of things like that. Im sure some of those old timers loved it and some hated it. Id say it probably depends on what you had to do. Some probably worked their fingers off trying to mass produce coins, ingots, etc.. to keep everything running. 

[Just Bob]

38 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

 Id love to see some of that old equipment in person sometime. Alot of it is probably sitting in a museum somewhere. I know it will never happen but id love to be able to play on it and strike so coins. 

I believe I read somewhere that some of the old presses were sold for scrap, and ended up in China, where they were (and maybe still are) used to manufacture counterfeit coins. There is also one in use in Colorado at the Moonlight mint.

[GoldFinger1969]

I'm going to re-read (and finish !) FMTM.  I think I went in with such limited knowledge the last time that I found the book very difficult to understand.  

Learning about the minting process in such minutae does help collectors understand what causes all the differenct die and other variations that we see on all our coins.  That was MY interest in getting FMTM, not necessarily learning all the details about the employees, equipment, etc.

Roger's attention to detail and his excellent writing style in ALL his books is duly noted and appreciated ! 

[RWB]

15 hours ago, Hoghead515 said:

 Im planning on reading Mr. Lange's book also in the near future that RWB referd to me. What is the name of it again? I'll try to find where to purchase it and maybe sometime try to have him autograph it for me. But I recommend every collector read FMTM. It will give you a whole new respect to collecting the older coins knowing what the workers went thru to mint them.

History of the United States Mint and Its Coinage by David W. Lange (Author), Mary Jo Mead (Contributor). I understand that the print version is sold out, but I think Kindel and other electronic versions are available.

Not sure how an electronic version could be autographed....an "e-signature" maybe?

Edited January 5, 2021 by RWB

[Conder101]

On 1/4/2021 at 3:54 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I can't prove it....but I'll bet that if the price of those 1933 Saints in the early-1940's was closer to $35 instead of $350.

Swit might have sold them that cheap but the ones that traded in the open market went higher.  The one that caused everything to come tumbling down in 1944 when it was being put up for auction I believed was estimate to bring $2,000 - $4,000.  It was a question from a reporter to the Treasury asking why a recent coin could be worth so much  that brought the Governments scrutiny down on the 1933 double eagles.

On 1/2/2021 at 10:34 PM, Hoghead515 said:

Yep. It was probably hard for them to see and know the quality of each others finished

products and keep up with them do to the distances apart from each other.

But they would have a chance to see the other mints product and quality at the annual Trial of the Pyx/annual assay.  There would have samples of each mints output throughout the year.  But of course that was more interested in making sure the coins were up to the legal standards and not aesthetic standards.

18 hours ago, Just Bob said:

I believe I read somewhere that some of the old presses were sold for scrap, and ended up in China, where they were (and maybe still are) used to manufacture counterfeit coins.

Those were from around 1920.

I believe the first steam press from Philadelphia is at the ANA Museum in Colorado, and the first press used at Carson City in 1870 is still on display at the state museum there.  I believe they have a small display of some of the other equipment as well. The Philadelphia mint had a small screw press on display that is identified as one of the original presses, but which is more likely a small blanking press. The one at the Moonlight Mint is I believe from the 1960's.

I'm currently reading the Kindle version of Mr. Lange's book.  My impression is that it gives a decent general overview but is really geared toward the very beginners.  I picked up the Kindle version at Amazon for about $8.

[Hoghead515]

Ill probably read it on kindle also. And i will keep an eye out for someone selling a used one. Wonder why they don't print more of them? Was it a limited edition? Or very costly to make more copies or something? But it seems like a hot item. 

Edited January 5, 2021 by Hoghead515

[RWB]

1 hour ago, Conder101 said:

But they would have a chance to see the other mints product and quality at the annual Trial of the Pyx/annual assay.  There would have samples of each mints output throughout the year.

The Annual Assay Commission meeting was consistently the one time during the year that the mint director saw coins from all the mints in one place and in comparable conditions. Even after initiation of the Special Assay at HQ in Washington, the director was only marginally involved - unless something unusual was noticed. (See my Coin World article on 1890-O dollars with letter E transfer.)

Pyx coins were put into padded, sealed envelopes. These were opened only by the Commission. The director did not see them until the meeting.

Letters relating to the Assay Commission occasionally include references to coins of defective appearance, or clipped planchets. But there is much less of this than I would expect in relation to the two Southern gold mints.

[RWB]

43 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

Ill probably read it on kindle also. And i will keep an eye out for someone selling a used one. Wonder why they don't print more of them? Was it a limited edition? Or very costly to make more copies or something? But it seems like a hot item. 

The current edition was published in 2005. It has taken 15 years to sell out - which is about typical for a numismatic book. I don't know what the press run was. For comparison J.Hewett Judd's book on US Pattern coins came out in 1959 - and new copies are still available!

[GoldFinger1969]

54 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

Ill probably read it on kindle also. And i will keep an eye out for someone selling a used one. Wonder why they don't print more of them? Was it a limited edition? Or very costly to make more copies or something? But it seems like a hot item. 

They don't make tons and tons of some of these coin books.  Always good to buy them and put them away even if you aren't sure if you can read it at that time.

I have given thought to buying a backup copy of Roger's SAINTS book but it came out recently so I assume I have time before it disappears. 

But from what Roger intimated, they don't print hundreds of thousands or even tens of thousands of these books, maybe sometimes just more like thousands.

[RWB]

A coin book press run is rarely more than 5,000 copies, and most are just a few hundred. Some newer books are either print on demand, or advance order only and result in less than 100 copies printed.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

A coin book press run is rarely more than 5,000 copies, and most are just a few hundred. Some newer books are either print on demand, or advance order only and result in less than 100 copies printed.

What would you guestimate a popular series like the RED BOOKS for Morgans, DE's, Peace Dollars runs to ?

I would say on the larger size, probably closer to your 5,000 limit.

[RWB]

The Guide Book of US coins is likely in the vicinity of 20,000 per year - widely stocked and well known. The other Guide Book series are probably at the 5,000 copy level - this is also a cost break-point where the cost per copy drops dramatically. Although the Guide Book is an annual publication, the others can be offered for sale as long as copies remain in inventory -- same as my books or any others.

The unwritten rule is to avoid having a published book appear on the "remainder" table in book stores. So publishers usually order only what can be sold in a reasonable time. Fifteen years might seem long, but for special interest books - especially ones built on research data like mine - it's not unreasonable. The distributor gets steady income over many years.

[GoldFinger1969]

59 minutes ago, RWB said:

The unwritten rule is to avoid having a published book appear on the "remainder" table in book stores. So publishers usually order only what can be sold in a reasonable time. Fifteen years might seem long, but for special interest books - especially ones built on research data like mine - it's not unreasonable. The distributor gets steady income over many years.

Well, you know I bought your Saints magnus opus and I will certainly buy another one down the line.  I'm not a Kindle or smartphone book reader, but if it's there as well, I may get it there, too.  That way, it's always with me at coin shows. 

Thinking of getting the Morse Saints book (which is in hardcover) if I am sure the content is a bit different and/or there are more/different photos than the ones in your book.  I know page-wise it's 1/2 the size.

[DWLange]

History of the United States Mint and Its Coinage by David W. Lange (Author), Mary Jo Mead (Contributor). I understand that the print version is sold out, but I think Kindel and other electronic versions are available.

Funny story: I've been selling signed copies of that book on Amazon for years, with nary a taker at $24.95. In fact, for a long time I'd just been giving away copies to those who'd done me favors. Then, about six weeks ago, I sold five copies in one week. Wondering what was up, I saw that other seller's were pricing it at $65-115! It seems that the book did just go out of print, and no one could buy it from the publisher (Whitman) or the main supplier (Wizard). With just three copies left, I took the bold step of raising my price to $29.95, and those sold out in a couple of days. I now have only my own library copy and one I'd given to my parents before they passed.

As an interesting aside, I wrote that book entirely as a donation to the ANA, which was going to publish it as a correspondence course. Instead, its now-disgraced former Executive Director Chris Cipoletti fired the person in charge of that project and then struck a deal with Whitman to publish it commercially with some portion benefitting the ANA. The first printing even included a greeting from him that was deleted from all subsequent printings after he was terminated. Though I don't know the actual number of copies printed, it nonetheless remains the best selling of my 10 books.

One final note, the correct spelling of Mary Jo's surname is Meade, but I don't believe this was ever corrected in any of the printings. She performed the layout of the book for the ANA, though it was then tweaked a bit by Whitman to meet its own criteria.

 

[RWB]

Thanks for the interesting notes and name spelling correction for Ms Meade. I took my reference off one of the on-line seller's listings - my own copy being someplace in storage with other books.