Collectors Universe agrees to be acquired by investor group
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185 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, jtryka said:

By the way, I thought Steve Cohen was permanently banned from the securities industry following the shenanigans at SAC Capital.  I had dealings with the former firm and saw all the interesting measures at Point 72 and the other successor firms following the enforcement actions.  Apparently he's doing this with his personal money so it likely doesn't break any "rules"...interesting nonetheless...

Is this the same Steve Cohen

SEC.gov | Steven A. Cohen Barred From Supervisory Hedge Fund Role

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3 hours ago, jtryka said:

By the way, I thought Steve Cohen was permanently banned from the securities industry following the shenanigans at SAC Capital.  I had dealings with the former firm and saw all the interesting measures at Point 72 and the other successor firms following the enforcement actions.  Apparently he's doing this with his personal money so it likely doesn't break any "rules"...interesting nonetheless...

He never faced a permanent ban, the sanctions applied only to SAC Capital.

Insider trading violations are VERY tough to prove.  I suspect that was why the fine was so high -- though it was higher than I ever thought it would be (Drexel Burnham Lambert, an entire company, got fined only $600 MM).

The SEC often has an expansive view of "insider trading" and they often get shot down by the courts, including the SCOTUS.

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2 hours ago, MAULEMALL said:

Yup...and the allegations against Martoma were very questionable.  I forgot the details, but it wasn't a slam-dunk case.

Never forget that the SEC wanted to send Ray Dirks -- of Dirks vs. SEC (1982) -- to go to jail for "insider trading."  He exposed a fraud....was a hero...was thanked by the SEC and Feds....and then told to pack his suitcase, he was going to jail for 15-20 years.  Only a 6-3 SCOTUS decision that controls to this day saved him.  Got to sit next to Ray years ago at an analyst dinner -- nice guy.

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On 12/3/2020 at 1:03 PM, Bignubnumismatics said:

Most collectors have taken a step back from slabs and gone back to raw coins.

When you come right down to it, it is the investor-grade slabbed coins memorialized, in perpetuity, that separates the modest small-time coin collector from the old-time, card-carrying investor who looks to acquire a rare coin or accumulate a compilation worthy of top billing.  France and Germany, unable to ignore the infusion of collectors (like me) who insist on the security and integrity of slabs, are now offering both the raw and slabbed coins and the sudden unexpected appearance of highly-graded restrike roosters only confirms my suspicions.  [To date, Collectors Universe has never, to my knowledge, offered an upper-tier original French 20-franc gold rooster (1899-1906)].

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On 12/3/2020 at 5:39 AM, MarkFeld said:

All of the pro CLCT posts are still active on that thread.

All of your posts are still publicly viewable, Mr Field, but part of the thread is censored from public view.

But it's definitely not Kool aid that led to the public censorship of posts unfavorable to the company. 

My guess is that it was a combination of greed, anger, and fear.

I'm going to add links to my thread in the Water Cooler, if you, or anyone else, has an interest in becoming better informed regarding the "value" of a company like CLCT - PCGS.

 

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1 hour ago, ProfHaroldHill said:

I'm going to add links to my thread in the Water Cooler, if you, or anyone else, has an interest in becoming better  informed regarding the "value" of a company like CLCT - PCGS. 

You wrote a bit eerily about what was going on and the end it with the "value" of CLCT -- could you perhaps gives us a bit more color here in this thread ?  Thanks....(thumbsu

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On 12/3/2020 at 1:08 PM, MarkFeld said:

Were you speaking of most U.S. collectors going back to raw coins? If so, I haven't seen or heard that.

Very few significant raw coins exist anymore and if collectors want them they will simply buy slabbed coins and crack them out. What a great idea B|

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[Is there no one here, or any other thread, willing to stick his neck out and say disinterment from a slab, coffin, or whatever you wish to call it is a sacrilege and an abomination unworthy of the ideals upon which this hobby was founded?  I have only been here a few months and it has begun to seem a number of members regard this vandalism as normal human behavior. It isn't, and I for one, refuse to accept it.  If you disagree with the opinion rendered by a TPGS, there are procedures in place for having your disagreement reviewed and otherwise addressed.  I don't know what I find worse: discovering activity which reflects adversely on the hobby actually exists, or finding those the numismatic community universally holds in high regard tacitly approving of this disgraceful and disrespectful approach to problem-solving with their deafening silence.]

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1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[Is there no one here, or any other thread, willing to stick his neck out and say disinterment from a slab, coffin, or whatever you wish to call it is a sacrilege and an abomination unworthy of the ideals upon which this hobby was founded?  I have only been here a few months and it has begun to seem a number of members regard this vandalism as normal human behavior.

Are you talking about crack-outs ?  At times it's legitimate, at other times it's a game.  Re-submitting a coin a dozen times in hopes of getting a higher grade at a price inflection point is unseemly, IMO.

But it's not against the law.  You just hope that the situation mentioned in that infamous Franklin Half Thread and others like it are the exception and not the norm.

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On 12/5/2020 at 5:00 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

You wrote a bit eerily about what was going on and the end it with the "value" of CLCT -- could you perhaps gives us a bit more color here in this thread ?  Thanks....(thumbsu

"Eerily"? Well, I was going for "ominously", so I guess I better work on my intonations!

Today there are many investors who want to do more than look at balance sheets and ledgers. People who want to know more about the way the company acts as a corporate person, if you will. They are called, "ethical investors", and they do not ignore 'values' when doing an evaluation of a company. Their values are as diverse as they themselves are as people, but they base their decisions on where to put their $ on more than profit alone.

They/we believe that the future worth of any company cannot be determined with precision without looking carefully at current and past corporate behavior.

NGC established the "Water Cooler" so that some conversations could be reserved for a more or less, 'private audience', generally involving non-coin matters, such that the overall public presentation of this forum would be nicely focused on coins, etc. Hobby stuff.

The issues that may arise from the discussions of the two main points of my Water Cooler thread, (and the things that may be said by those expressing their opinions on those issues,) might slightly upset some die-hard fans of one or more 'TPG's. I'm pretty sure the 'mods' would prefer that discussion to go on wholly within the realm of the Water Cooler, so you'll forgive me for not discussing them openly here, (though certainly others might choose to do so.)

 

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11 minutes ago, ProfHaroldHill said:

"Eerily"? Well, I was going for "ominously", so I guess I better work on my intonations!

Today there are many investors who want to do more than look at balance sheets and ledgers. People who want to know more about the way the company acts as a corporate person, if you will. They are called, "ethical investors", and they do not ignore 'values' when doing an evaluation of a company. Their values are as diverse as they themselves are as people, but they base their decisions on where to put their $ on more than profit alone.

They/we believe that the future worth of any company cannot be determined with precision without looking carefully at current and past corporate behavior.

NGC established the "Water Cooler" so that some conversations could be reserved for a more or less, 'private audience', generally involving non-coin matters, such that the overall public presentation of this forum would be nicely focused on coins, etc. Hobby stuff.

The issues that may arise from the discussions of the two main points of my Water Cooler thread, (and the things that may be said by those expressing their opinions on those issues,) might slightly upset some die-hard fans of one or more 'TPG's. I'm pretty sure the 'mods' would prefer that discussion to go on wholly within the realm of the Water Cooler, so you'll forgive me for not discussing them openly here, (though certainly others might choose to do so.)

 

[I cannot help but feel, sir, that you have more than earned your honorific.  It is always a pleasure to watch you weigh in on somewhat sensitive matters with discretion.]

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2 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

Now that the hysteria has died down, has anyone come to the conclusion that CU wasn't purchased for PCGS, but rather for PSA?

That was my take on it originally but everybody seemed so content to talk about the coin grading space.

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21 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

Now that the hysteria has died down, has anyone come to the conclusion that CU wasn't purchased for PCGS, but rather for PSA?

Has not been much recent talk about it after the initial buzz.  Given that other than new mint releases coin submissions are likely to be flat or declining going forward (only grade inflation has kept it high this long) the growth potential does seem to be on the PSA side.

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2 hours ago, Alex in PA. said:

And now that NevadaS&G has cancelled his account will this effect the business deal?    :popcorn:

[I don't truly believe the gentleman cancelled his account. He let his lapse. Like me.]

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5 hours ago, gmarguli said:

Now that the hysteria has died down, has anyone come to the conclusion that CU wasn't purchased for PCGS, but rather for PSA?

That seems to be the play.  All these sports cards, uniforms, bats, and other memorabilia...they need to be certified and graded and sometimes protected.

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4 hours ago, Alex in PA. said:

And now that NevadaS&G has cancelled his account will this effect the business deal? 

Who is NS&G and what account are we talking about and how would it affect the CLCT deal ?

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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On 12/3/2020 at 1:29 PM, RWB said:

Artificial Intelligence is not necessary for bulk grading of new issues. The examination parameters are so limited that SW could be put together in a weekend using common commercial toolkits. Even for routine grading of Morgans and similar coins one does not need an expert system -- IF -- distinction is made between what such systems do well and what humans do well. I.e., apply the best solution to each part of the problem.

Merely eliminating so-called “mechanical errors” (actually just plain old poor QC) would be a huge help ats. 

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14 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Who is NS&G and what account are we talking about and how would it affect the CLCT deal ?

[At last count, 235 posts spread over 8 pages in just the last two weeks... It's a long story and I don't blame Alex for not replying.  Some things are just better left unsaid.]

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On 12/16/2020 at 2:50 PM, CRAWTOMATIC said:

That was my take on it originally but everybody seemed so content to talk about the coin grading space.

cards vs. coins

both (cards / coins) have a demographic problem however there has been a turn happening for last couple years in cards--this article outlines a bit of it Sports Cards Values Will Explode In Certain Categories. Here's Why. (garyvaynerchuk.com) you can see how other aspects of the sports economy are pulling the markets value chain together (cards being one aspect).

my opinion on the reality of coin collecting (and I know from being beat up here in the past that this forum doesn't want to hear this... ) is that it will continue to erode unless people start to see it as an investment.  coin collecting (especially ancients) has an opportunity to drive the same alternative investment value but it's within world history and education (a bit like art--now only if I could hang it on my wall...) 

also interesting is the economic comparison of world collectible coins vs. US collectible coins--in many ways one could argue that the US market is a bubble and this makes the problem above even worse. 

some think CU is undervalued (more) but this will likely go thru... if it does I doubt Cohen expects to keep PCGS--HGBL might be a nice home.. 

supply and demand are wonderful concepts... this will be fun to watch. 

cards.png

coins.png

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