Advice on fakes
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A son of mine is going to begin coin collecting. He's an honest man, and I know as time passes he'll see all of the fake Morgan dollars etc. on Ebay and elsewhere and ask me how sellers get away with all of the disgusting things they do. If he purchases a fake, he won't resell to regain his money. If he can't get refunded, it'll be destroyed. He bought a fake baseball card when he was 12 in the 80's, so he's already felt the hurt. He has money to burn, so I know he'll go from Lincolns to Double Eagles in no time. I've already enlightened him on Chinese fakes, American replicas, added mint marks, Omega Man of the past etc... I know he'll ask why counterfeiting is so widespread without being vigorously investigated. -- When does a fake become a counterfeit, when it's made or when it's sold?

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When it is made, it becomes an intentional counterfeit. When it is sold as real, it becomes a crime. The sad thing is it can't be stopped. I wouldn't be surprised if there are still a lot of those grandpa collections sitting somewhere with a fake or two still waiting to hit the market by unsuspecting heirs. Everyone who is coin savy has run across them on ebay. Some sellers are unaware and remove them while others keep looking for that unknowing buyer. 

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Making a counterfeit is a crime in and of itself. Uttering it is another, separate criminal act.

An opinion is the continuing presence of large quantities of counterfeits is tolerated because there are no Federal resources to prosecute all the "little guys." Also, there is no national organization (such as ANA) that will take a leadership role in using provisions of the Hobby Protection Act to aggressively enforce the law.

Pretend, if you will, that a Federally Chartered collector organization contacted every seller of fakes on ebay, Craig's List and other sites. They informed the seller of the law, explained HPA requirements, and offered a one-time amnesty from prosecution on a cease and desist instruction. If the counterfeiter persisted, they would be prosecuted under HPA. Use of HPA is important. It permits individuals and organizations to bring direct prosecution against violators, AND to recover all revenue from counterfeiting AND request confiscation and disposal of all equipment, dies, materials and apparatus related to counterfeiting. This can make HPA a self-funding vehicle for cleaning out fakes regardless of country or state of origin.

The legal tools to wipe out most counterfeits are available - but the hobby/business does not use them.

Edited by RWB

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1 hour ago, RWB said:

Making a counterfeit is a crime in and of itself. Uttering it is another, separate criminal act.

An opinion is the continuing presence of large quantities of counterfeits is tolerated because there are no Federal resources to prosecute all the "little guys." Also, there is no national organization (such as ANA) that will take a leadership role in using provisions of the Hobby Protection Act to aggressively enforce the law.

Pretend, if you will, that a Federally Chartered collector organization contacted every seller of fakes on ebay, Craig's List and other sites. They informed the seller of the law, explained HPA requirements, and offered a one-time amnesty from prosecution on a cease and desist instruction. If the counterfeiter persisted, they would be prosecuted under HPA. Use of HPA is important. It permits individuals and organizations to bring direct prosecution against violators, AND to recover all revenue from counterfeiting AND request confiscation and disposal of all equipment, dies, materials and apparatus related to counterfeiting. This can make HPA a self-funding vehicle for cleaning out fakes regardless of country or state of origin.

The legal tools to wipe out most counterfeits are available - but the hobby/business does not use them.

No organization, federally chartered or not, has the authority to do anything about it. This is criminal, and not civil. The ANA would be instantly be thrown out of court for lack of standing. There is no viable plaintiff, only criminal prosecutors, and as long as prosecutorial discretion remains “a thing”, we are screwed fighting international counterfeiting.  
 

Yes, Section 2102 of the HPA grants a civil cause of action to “any interested person”, but having a civil cause of action is different from having legal standing, a MUUUUUUUCH higher bar to cross. The ANA is so lacking in standing, as an “educational” provider, that it defies logic to even suggest they have it.

Edited by VKurtB

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5 hours ago, VKurtB said:

No organization, federally chartered or not, has the authority to do anything about it. This is criminal, and not civil. The ANA would be instantly be thrown out of court for lack of standing. There is no viable plaintiff, only criminal prosecutors, and as long as prosecutorial discretion remains “a thing”, we are screwed fighting international counterfeiting.  
 

Yes, Section 2102 of the HPA grants a civil cause of action to “any interested person”, but having a civil cause of action is different from having legal standing, a MUUUUUUUCH higher bar to cross. The ANA is so lacking in standing, as an “educational” provider, that it defies logic to even suggest they have it.

No. Legal standing is simple to establish by any aggrieved party or organization representing such parties - that's where the Federal charter adds weight. (You might be confusing this with "grading" where lack of standards gets most cases thrown out.

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10 minutes ago, RWB said:

No. Legal standing is simple to establish by any aggrieved party or organization representing such parties - that's where the Federal charter adds weight. (You might be confusing this with "grading" where lack of standards gets most cases thrown out.

I’ve got a $100 note that says the ANA could never get legal standing. Standing throws more cases out of court, including at the SCOTUS level, than any other factor. Section 2102 of the HPA grants a cause of action to those who own affected intellectual property rights. To even suggest that the ANA could ever attain standing strains the bounds of credibility. Unless someone fakes an ANA medal, that is. Do you know of any faked Zerbe’s or Smedley’s? Undeserved doesn’t count.

For actual legal tender, only the government has standing to litigate, and they are seemingly uninterested.

Edited by VKurtB

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On this subject I must agree with VKurtB.  In all the decades I have collected I have only seen a few people charged with crimes against the coin collecting community.

Their sentences were laughable.  The Fed has bigger fish to fry than the EBay crooks; that is the way it is and that is the way it will be.  Besides, name one of us here that is going to go to court with a legal action over a counterfeit coin.  You would have to be rich beyond words to cover the court costs.  Well, just my thoughts on this.  I can remember when I got stung; it wasn't a court of law I was thinking of it was Smith and Wesson.

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1 minute ago, Alex in PA. said:

On this subject I must agree with VKurtB.  In all the decades I have collected I have only seen a few people charged with crimes against the coin collecting community.

Their sentences were laughable.  The Fed has bigger fish to fry than the EBay crooks; that is the way it is and that is the way it will be.  Besides, name one of us here that is going to go to court with a legal action over a counterfeit coin.  You would have to be rich beyond words to cover the court costs.  Well, just my thoughts on this.  I can remember when I got stung; it wasn't a court of law I was thinking of it was Smith and Wesson.

Taurus revolver in .327 Federal Magnum, for me. Small hole entry, but hollow tips.

Edited by VKurtB

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9 hours ago, VKurtB said:

They’re too busy framing public figures. 

 

25 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Taurus revolver in .327 Federal Magnum, for me. Small hole entry, but hollow tips.

I fail to understand why you feel the need to inject this garbage into every thread. This is a coin forum.

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12 minutes ago, kbbpll said:

 

I fail to understand why you feel the need to inject this garbage into every thread. This is a coin forum.

I do it mostly to trigger Californians. :roflmao:Unclench. 

Edited by VKurtB

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We have lost the war against counterfeit coins. Even if you win a civil case the court cost are too great and you have to go back to court to even try to collect on it. The criminal courts are of little help because of the reasons that Kurt already posted. 

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15 hours ago, kbbpll said:

 

I fail to understand why you feel the need to inject this garbage into every thread. This is a coin forum.

Lighten up huh?  If this is getting too much I suggest Coin Talk where all are polite.

:preach:

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19 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Taurus revolver in .327 Federal Magnum, for me. Small hole entry, but hollow tips.

😭😭 Don't get the snowflakes to crying VKurtB. 😆😆 Them snowflakes want freedom of speech to just be one sided. 

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On 11/21/2020 at 7:59 AM, VKurtB said:

Either and both. Counterfeiting of actual spendable cash is one of the Secret Service’s original jurisdictions. Fighting the counterfeiting of collectable coins is a mission of essentially no one. They all have “bigger fish to fry”. The FBI simply does not care. They’re too busy framing public figures. 

My name is on the Treaury watch list because of an incident 40 years ago in a litho class.😎

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5 hours ago, Alex in PA. said:

Lighten up huh?  If this is getting too much I suggest Coin Talk where all are polite.

:preach:

Right on Alex, these jerks got me suspended once. No sense of humor except for Kurt Von Rickenbacker.😎

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23 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Taurus revolver in .327 Federal Magnum, for me. Small hole entry, but hollow tips.

Really stupid comment.

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3 hours ago, Alex in PA. said:

Agreed.  It is sad that our great hobby is riddled with crooked people who counterfeit, lie, cheat and steal.  But this is not new to coin collecting.  The counterfeiters have been at work, long and hard, since the first coin was hammered.

Our real problem lies in the advance of technology which is making these counterfeiters more proficient in cheating us.  Every year the Chinese outfits produce a better product designed to fool us.  There isn't a day goes by that I don't visit a coin forum only to see the thread 'EBay Fake - Please Report'.  And we do report; day after day and year after year but still they come.  From China, from Europe, from Russia there is always someone trying to get over for those 'Easy Dollars'.

We are a few but we do what we can do.  And it is threads such as this one that remind us to stay alert.  Many thanks to the OP for putting this up.

HPA has the tools to allow ANA or individual collectors of coins and political items to bring civil action (not criminal). A bit of meaningful aggression by ANA toward sellers and enablers of counterfeiters would make a substantial reduction in availability. The Hobby.Business has the means to choke counterfeiting on small and large scale - if it has the will to act.

The solutions have little to do with technology - counterfeiters are not doing things much different than a century ago. Nearly perfect counterfeits were being turned out in the 1880s - even double headed Morgan dollars that long fooled "experts."

Edited by RWB

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12 hours ago, RWB said:

HPA has the tools to allow ANA or individual collectors of coins and political items to bring civil action (not criminal). A bit of meaningful aggression by ANA toward sellers and enablers of counterfeiters would make a substantial reduction in availability. The Hobby.Business has the means to choke counterfeiting on small and large scale - if it has the will to act.

The solutions have little to do with technology - counterfeiters are not doing things much different than a century ago. Nearly perfect counterfeits were being turned out in the 1880s - even double headed Morgan dollars that long fooled "experts."

You need to get into re-animating humans Dr. Frankenfurter. 😎

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41 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

You live where and how you want, and I’ll live where and how I want, okay? Just because I have to pass through 324 miles of your state to get to my new home doesn’t mean I care to live like a resident there. I’m officially an Alabaman now, for better or for worse. 

Thats awesome my friend. Glad your living your dream and standing up for your values. You remind me a whole lot of my dad. He was a no nonsense, stand your ground type of person. He didn't care to tell people how it is also. Hope the best for you in Alabama 

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This thread started by the OP on such a positive note, what with the airing of rare ethical considerations seldom if ever seen here or elsewhere, unforseeably descended into numismatic dissonance.  As a committed believer in the superiority of the Two (No. 2 pencil) over the Nine (mm. automatic) I am unaware of any legitimate and justifiable use of [deadly] force used against a counterfeiter that would be countenanced in any jurisdiction of the United States. Therefore, solicitations here being forbidden, I shall do the responsible thing and commit to starting and maintaining a Bail Fund for those whose beliefs run contrary to the rule of law.  Now, as Goldfinger1969 is oft-heard stating:  "Getting back to the thread..."

 

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22 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

This thread started by the OP on such a positive note, what with the airing of rare ethical considerations seldom if ever seen here or elsewhere, unforseeably descended into numismatic dissonance.  As a committed believer in the superiority of the Two (No. 2 pencil) over the Nine (mm. automatic) I am unaware of any legitimate and justifiable use of [deadly] force used against a counterfeiter that would be countenanced in any jurisdiction of the United States. Therefore, solicitations here being forbidden, I shall do the responsible thing and commit to starting and maintaining a Bail Fund for those whose beliefs run contrary to the rule of law.  Now, as Goldfinger1969 is oft-heard stating:  "Getting back to the thread..."

 

QA,

You are blissfully unaware of the lonnnnnnnng backstory history involving @RWB and one individual who makes tribute pieces in Colorado. Roger insists on calling that gentleman a counterfeiter, and has even filed a formal complaint against that gentleman’s ANA membership. Roger knows, and I know, that his claims have been roundly dismissed by the ANA, and Roger remains “butt hurt” by the outcome. Roger continues to “take shots at” the Coloradan to this very day. If anyone’s ANA membership in good standing stands in peril, frankly it’s Roger’s. Continuing to denigrate a fellow member over a dispute already settled by the ANA is an ethical breach of high order.

Edited by VKurtB

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7 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

QA,

You are blissfully unaware of the lonnnnnnnng backstory history involving @RWB and one individual who makes tribute pieces in Colorado. Roger insists on calling that gentleman a counterfeiter, and has even filed a formal complaint against that gentleman’s ANA membership. Roger knows, and I know, that his claims have been roundly dismissed by the ANA, and Roger remains “butt hurt” by the outcome. Roger continues to “take shots at” the Coloradan to this very day. If anyone’s ANA membership in good standing stands in peril, frankly it’s Roger’s. Continuing to denigrate a fellow member over a dispute already settled by the ANA is an ethical breach of high order.

Not sure what all this has to do with a Taurus, but okay.  I have read and re-read Ebay's and PayPal's policies as regarding the misrepresentation of items offered for sale and it seems buyers do have recourse and protections. And the reviews submitted by buyers are actively sought and submitted. So far, my experiences have been phenomenally good.

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8 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Not sure what all this has to do with a Taurus, but okay.  I have read and re-read Ebay's and PayPal's policies as regarding the misrepresentation of items offered for sale and it seems buyers do have recourse and protections. And the reviews submitted by buyers are actively sought and submitted. So far, my experiences have been phenomenally good.

Merely stating my preference of personal protection weapon in response to the post directly above it. I am aware that as a New Yorker, your experiences are vastly different from those in both states I will have lived in this year. Both are “shall issue” concealed carry states, both specifically ALLOW hollow point ammunition, and both have fully robust “stand your ground” laws, and not only of the “affirmative defense” variety, but the “D.A. doesn’t charge at all” type. I like states like mine, and wouldn’t live in NY if I was paid to.

Edited by VKurtB

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