Is CoinTalk.com a scam?
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251 posts in this topic

Agreed - participation in a forum is not a right, it's a privilege. However, the whole point of my original post here is that the numismatic community should seriously reconsider participating in a forum that bans helpful numismatists such as myself without cause. They are clearly moderating in a way that prevents the free spreading of ideas and information. Feels communistic to me.

2 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[That's an awful lot of rhetorical flash-bangs there, VKurtB!  After a presumably comprehensive background check, I was accepted as a member at CT, so how heavily moderated can it be?  Then again, I won't really know until I summon the courage to speak up over there.  Either way, it doesn't look very promising.  Thing is, no one has a right to post anywhere. It is a privilege which can either be denied at the outset or revoked. This Forum makes that crystal clear in its Guidelines. I can play nice here, (DINA's Law) or go play elsewhere. Fair enough.]

 

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22 hours ago, scopru said:

OP sounds like he ruffled the wrong feathers in some way and got the boot - rightly or wrongly.

Must have done some SERIOUS ruffling to get banned in just 6 posts.

 

22 hours ago, G_P said:

You won't be able to see what I said because my posts were removed

You must have really stepped on some toes as typically even when a person is banned they don't remove their posts unless those posts seriously violated the forum rules.

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10 hours ago, G_P said:

Agreed - participation in a forum is not a right, it's a privilege. However, the whole point of my original post here is that the numismatic community should seriously reconsider participating in a forum that bans helpful numismatists such as myself without cause. They are clearly moderating in a way that prevents the free spreading of ideas and information. Feels communistic to me.

 

There is more to this story. Did you have more than one user name? Did you get banned and join again under a new user name? What names did you use there? I person has to try really hard to get banned on CT. I can't agree with you without knowing all the facts. Please give us all the information.

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On 11/16/2020 at 11:06 PM, bsshog40 said:

This has been Sleepy Hollow for the over 14 yrs

I don't recollect the exact date this form became the legendary 'Sleepy Hollow'.  Maybe about 2006 to 2008 when the War of the Words ended and a mass migration began.  Some very good folks, and my friends, left and as I checked over the years they didn't come back.  

As for CT being a "scam" I would tell the OP that's BS and "you might want to stop taking yourself so darn seriously."

An Internet fraud (online scam) is the use of Internet services or software with Internet access to defraud victims or to otherwise take advantage of them; for example, by stealing personal information, which can even lead to identity theft.

Edited by Alex in PA.
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1 hour ago, G_P said:

Could someone please invite the owner/moderator of CT to join this conversation and shed some light?

Why would anyone want to do that or show up here to argue with you?  We have enough silly word battles here so I surely do not want to see an issue from another forum brought here.   Whatever occurred to cause you to get banned at CT is done and over.  The bottom line is I do not think anyone really cares what caused it.  My suggestion would be to move on and stop beating a dead horse.  There are plenty of threads in this forum you might be able to positively contribute to.   

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20 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

[That's an awful lot of rhetorical flash-bangs there, VKurtB!  After a presumably comprehensive background check, I was accepted as a member at CT, so how heavily moderated can it be?  Then again, I won't really know until I summon the courage to speak up over there.  Either way, it doesn't look very promising.  Thing is, no one has a right to post anywhere. It is a privilege which can either be denied at the outset or revoked. This Forum makes that crystal clear in its Guidelines. I can play nice here, (DINA's Law) or go play elsewhere. Fair enough.]

Just wait. You’ll eventually become targeted. Anyone who challenges the nonsense postings of the chief moderator eventually is. He’s paleo coin guy with badly outdated views, but he holds them strongly. He’s, frankly, a menace. 

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One possible theory. You say (OP) you’re some sort of coin valuation expert. Many many people in this field believe there is no such thing, and THAT may have ruffled feathers enough over at CT. I am dubious enough about valuation expertise myself, and I’ve been active in numismatics for almost 58 years now. All of that is OPINION, except for an offer and an acceptance, which establishes a price.  

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@VKurtB - I agree 100%! Coin values are usually nothing more than OPINIONS! That is why I am building a software that determines coin values based on what they are actually selling for at auctions (along with a number of other complex variables) - a much more accurate way to value coins that the conjecture published by every other "price guide". I would love to hear more about your skepticism in coin valuations - I need skeptics to challenge my pricing engine so that I can improve it. I am going to message you directly. Thanks for your candor.

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19 hours ago, G_P said:

@VKurtB - I agree 100%! Coin values are usually nothing more than OPINIONS! That is why I am building a software that determines coin values based on what they are actually selling for at auctions (along with a number of other complex variables) - a much more accurate way to value coins that the conjecture published by every other "price guide". I would love to hear more about your skepticism in coin valuations - I need skeptics to challenge my pricing engine so that I can improve it. I am going to message you directly. Thanks for your candor.

This sounds like a whole bunch of "middleware" to scrape other web resources. Some sites will be okay with that, especially if you give them credit, but some OTHER sites will sue your kiester halfway to Mars. Be careful of that. My collection consists of "serious coins" and "fun coins" as well. The vast majority of my "serious coins" came from backcountry rural Pennsylvania coin auctions which have no web presence whatsoever, other than having been listed on auctionzip.com. How might those prices figure into ANY algorithm, yours or anyone else's?

One of my favorite auction places, in southern York County, near the Maryland state line, has NO cell service whatsoever and no broadband either. They LITERALLY still use dial-up, right now, in 2020. When they "run" my debit card, I hear ALL the dial-up modem screeching.

Edited by VKurtB
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9 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

This sounds like a whole bunch of "middleware" to scrape other web resources.

I agree with this and your other point of how do you factor in sold prices for non web based purchases.   I see a lot of opportunity for costly issues - from the developer to the future end user. 

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19 minutes ago, scopru said:

I agree with this and your other point of how do you factor in sold prices for non web based purchases.   I see a lot of opportunity for costly issues - from the developer to the future end user. 

Yup, in about 12 days, my access to Pennsylvania's best coin auctions are going to be attached to a 1500 mile round trip. With possible SNOW?!?!?! Oh no, not that. Never again.

Edited by VKurtB
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13 minutes ago, scopru said:

Perhaps you will find some similar quality auctions in 'bama or near by. 

Don't think I haven't been searching. Tennessee seems to be a more target-rich environment so far. Also, newspapers still are king for auction ads. It's almost impossible to compare the live auction culture of Pennsylvania to anything else anywhere. Even HOUSES are often sold by auction rather than by realtors in PA. PA also has the legal structure to allow it. Example: 'shill' bidding in a PA auction (what S-B and Heritage do regularly) is literally a CRIME in Pennsylvania. Not a civilly actionable offense, actual CRIMES.

Edited by VKurtB
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Well good luck.  Tennessee is certainly an option - Mississippi might be a worthwhile place to look as well.  However, I am quite certain one way or another you will find what you seek. 

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In any case, the bar is set pretty low. The price guides published by NGC, PCGS and The Red/Blue Book are so inaccurate that they are unusable. It can't be that hard to, at a minimum, provide a more accurate estimation.

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2 minutes ago, G_P said:

In any case, the bar is set pretty low. The price guides published by NGC, PCGS and The Red/Blue Book are so inaccurate that they are unusable. It can't be that hard to, at a minimum, provide a more accurate estimation.

Agreed. For the Red Book, time elapsed is problem enough. What about things like Gray Sheets?

Edited by VKurtB
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14 minutes ago, G_P said:

In any case, the bar is set pretty low. The price guides published by NGC, PCGS and The Red/Blue Book are so inaccurate that they are unusable. It can't be that hard to, at a minimum, provide a more accurate estimation.

No argument there.  

I already provide myself a "more accurate estimation" so I am curious to see what exactly you roll out that would make me want to pay(?) a fee for something I already do.  Assuming this isn't a free app out of the kindness of your heart.  

 

Edited by scopru
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19 hours ago, RWB said:

The GF prefers pastel sheets. OK with me. With the lights off I can't see the color anyway.

Greysheet has the same problem, their prices are OPINIONS, not actually based on market data

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Coin sales are diverse and diffuse. They are spread over a very wide range of prices, and are also scattered largely among many private transactions. Public, no reserve auctions are the best data sources, but they can take years to cover even one series. They also are strongly skewed to higher cost coins.

Curiously, for all the claims of reliability in price guides, I've never seen any of them discuss data collection, statistical analysis or error margins. Maybe the whole thing is too ephemeral for that....?

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6 hours ago, RWB said:

Coin sales are diverse and diffuse. They are spread over a very wide range of prices, and are also scattered largely among many private transactions. Public, no reserve auctions are the best data sources, but they can take years to cover even one series. They also are strongly skewed to higher cost coins.

Curiously, for all the claims of reliability in price guides, I've never seen any of them discuss data collection, statistical analysis or error margins. Maybe the whole thing is too ephemeral for that....?

I admire G_P’s confidence, or you-know-what and vinegar. He needs to understand  however, that he’s not the first Don Quixote to notice this particular windmill. It’s a daunting task he seems hellbent on taking on, and I believe he might have underestimated its complexity, but yah, it’s worth another try. 
 

Available online data is like a roomful of lawyers buried in sand up to their necks - a nice start. The rest would seem at first glance to require an army of reporters, and I am having a hard time imagining where they’ll come from.

Edited by VKurtB
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59 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Available online data is like a roomful of lawyers buried in sand up to their necks - a nice start. The rest would seem at first glance to require an army of reporters, and I am having a hard time imagining where they’ll come from.

After that "nice start," one needs only a little honey and an ant or two.

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I sincerely appreciate the feedback and skepticism here - it helps put things into perspective of the challenge ahead. However, I believe there is nothing we can't accomplish with human intelligence and modern technology. If any of you are interested in taken a closer look at what I am working on, I would be happy to share more details privately, please send me a direct message. Thanks!

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