Fractional ownership... of baseball cards... ? This can't be good. 0

[GoldFinger1969]

7 hours ago, World Colonial said:

There was another thread here several years ago linking a Coin Week article where apparently, dealer Scott Travers still had a Barber quarter in a similar grade he bought at (or near) this time that used to be worth over $30,000 more recently worth about $6,000.  This is my recollection though I may not have the exact specifics.  The article mentioned the coin but didn't comment on the grade.

Can't find that article, but another coin quote from the Travers article:

"...the no-motto 1858 Liberty Seated quarter. On May 26, 1989, the Bluesheet listed this coin at $14,900 in MS-65 as certified by either PCGS or NGC. The Insider’s Guide to U.S. Coin Values lists the same coin’s value in 1993 at less than half that amount–just $7,000."

[World Colonial]

9 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Can't find that article, but another coin quote from the Travers article:

"...the no-motto 1858 Liberty Seated quarter. On May 26, 1989, the Bluesheet listed this coin at $14,900 in MS-65 as certified by either PCGS or NGC. The Insider’s Guide to U.S. Coin Values lists the same coin’s value in 1993 at less than half that amount–just $7,000."

It's this one though you will have to read much of the article to get to it.  https://coinweek.com/opinion/at-the-ana-many-attempts-to-bridge-the-coin-collecting-divide/

Edited November 5, 2020 by World Colonial

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, World Colonial said:

It's this one though you will have to read much of the article to get to it.  https://coinweek.com/opinion/at-the-ana-many-attempts-to-bridge-the-coin-collecting-divide/

Thanks, there's a quote there I want to discuss more but I am going to give it its own thread so as not to impinge on this one.

[GoldFinger1969]

And now we have these digital art and tweet things.  Unreal.....

[World Colonial]

8 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

And now we have these digital art and tweet things.  Unreal.....

Yes, a few threads on this on the PCGS forum, including one discussing the prospects for coins.

As far as I am concerned, NFT are the worst manifestation of the hare brained speculation which has been going in the seemingly never ending mania.  Not the most overpriced, but worst.

[GoldFinger1969]

Just now, World Colonial said:

Yes, a few threads on this on the PCGS forum, including one discussing the prospects for coins.

As far as I am concerned, NFT are the worst manifestation of the hare brained speculation which has been going in the seemingly never ending mania.  Not the most overpriced, but worst.

Art I get...what about just buying gold or even coins ?  At least classic baseball cards seemed to have come back in price.  Wonder about all that junk that got made from 1989-1994 or so.

[World Colonial]

1 minute ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Art I get...what about just buying gold or even coins ?  At least classic baseball cards seemed to have come back in price.  Wonder about all that junk that got made from 1989-1994 or so.

If you mean the "real thing" and not NFT,  I still think the modern art selling for record prices is mostly actually garbage and I am dubious that hardly any of it has longer term staying power.  Are any of these "artists" really going to be the next Picasso?  I don't even like his art but "get" the relative prices paid for his works.

The worst and even much of this cr*p reminds me of an "art" object my employer owned which was displayed by the outside entranceat one of facilities.  Well, the maintenance person (presumably a Latino since this was in Miami) "mistook" it as garbage and threw it away, literally.  It cost millions.  Reality was he didn't make a mistake because it was actually garbage.  People just pretend this garbage is "art" and pay millions for it anyway.

Not sure about the context of the rest of your post.  I think everyone who can do so should own some gold.  I still think most coins are going to lose value longer term, especially the most overpriced common US coins. 

I don't follow sports cards but, as with coins, much of the money to buy it is still from the fake wealth made possible by the current asset mania.  Modern cards are presumably mostly too common, regardless of how popular a particular player is now or later.  Heard there a record price for a Michael Jordan rookie card.  It can't be legitimately scarce and any "scarcity" must be from the TPG label.  Baseball seems to be in long term secular decline which can't be positive for card prices.

[Hoghead515]

40 minutes ago, World Colonial said:

If you mean the "real thing" and not NFT,  I still think the modern art selling for record prices is mostly actually garbage and I am dubious that hardly any of it has longer term staying power.  Are any of these "artists" really going to be the next Picasso?  I don't even like his art but "get" the relative prices paid for his works.

The worst and even much of this cr*p reminds me of an "art" object my employer owned which was displayed by the outside entranceat one of facilities.  Well, the maintenance person (presumably a Latino since this was in Miami) "mistook" it as garbage and threw it away, literally.  It cost millions.  Reality was he didn't make a mistake because it was actually garbage.  People just pretend this garbage is "art" and pay millions for it anyway.

Not sure about the context of the rest of your post.  I think everyone who can do so should own some gold.  I still think most coins are going to lose value longer term, especially the most overpriced common US coins. 

I don't follow sports cards but, as with coins, much of the money to buy it is still from the fake wealth made possible by the current asset mania.  Modern cards are presumably mostly too common, regardless of how popular a particular player is now or later.  Heard there a record price for a Michael Jordan rookie card.  It can't be legitimately scarce and any "scarcity" must be from the TPG label.  Baseball seems to be in long term secular decline which can't be positive for card prices.

I agree with you on the art. People are losing their minds. I've seen paintings of scribbles sell for millions. Or a picture of a banana or something.  It's crazy. Almost makes me want to become an artist if there's People out there dumb enough to buy it. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

Is the short term resurgence in sports cards/memorabilia, basketball specifically, tied to NFT's (NBA Top Shot)? When a Lebron NFT goes for 200k, why wouldn't physical memorabilia increase with it. The NFL and MLB are in active discussions to provide similar NFT's and platforms. The Jordan cards were GM10's that both went for over 700k, there are 316 that have received 10's from PSA and over 11,500 graded, not at all rare. While coins don't have the live actions highlights, I'll be interested to see how some entrepreneur tries to translated NFT's to coins. Buying video clips/images that are readily available for free online? I can't see how this doesn't end badly.

[Hoghead515]

It would drive me crazy to own just a fraction of a coin. Not being able to keep it. The whole reason I collect is so I can get my treasures out and admire them. Maybe roll in them like Scrooge.  Wouldn't be no fun to own something you couldn't physically hold and look at. 

[World Colonial]

1 hour ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

Is the short term resurgence in sports cards/memorabilia, basketball specifically, tied to NFT's (NBA Top Shot)? When a Lebron NFT goes for 200k, why wouldn't physical memorabilia increase with it. The NFL and MLB are in active discussions to provide similar NFT's and platforms. The Jordan cards were GM10's that both went for over 700k, there are 316 that have received 10's from PSA and over 11,500 graded, not at all rare. While coins don't have the live actions highlights, I'll be interested to see how some entrepreneur tries to translated NFT's to coins. Buying video clips/images that are readily available for free online? I can't see how this doesn't end badly.

Sports is also in a long term bubble: franchise values, media contracts, player salaries, ticket prices and yes, sports memorabilia including cards.  When it bursts (which it will with a vengeance once the financial mania and fake economy supporting it also burst), prices and values are going to plummet.  I covered this partly in a prior post here.

I remember both those prices but don't have access to the population counts or at least I don't know of it.  Jordan has always been popular but heard his increased last year when ESPN showed a documentary of his playing career when the NBA wasn't playing.  I had no idea that this card was this common as a 10 though and it is likely a lot more than common than even this count indicates.  An ultimate 99%+ loss from this price is likely, eventually.

As for NFT and coins, I think it will be a complete bust.  Hard to believe that any non-collector would have much interest and collectors aren't about to pay even a noticeable fraction versus the coin.  This leaves "investors".

[World Colonial]

10 minutes ago, Hoghead515 said:

It would drive me crazy to own just a fraction of a coin. Not being able to keep it. The whole reason I collect is so I can get my treasures out and admire them. Maybe roll in them like Scrooge.  Wouldn't be no fun to own something you couldn't physically hold and look at. 

This is how collectors overwhelmingly see collecting and there is no reason to believe it's going to change.  Coin collectors are collecting physical objects, so if you don't have physical possession, what's the point in collecting at all?

Many collectors (including me) have some or all of their collection is a SDB but the difference is psychological, not objective.  It's also my inference that the perceived necessity of doing this (for financial reasons) is a negative for many collector's collecting experience.  This isn't discussed much on coin forums but I know it is for me.

If you aren't going to have physical possession, then might as well collect coin images for free or just read and/or write about it.  There is no practical difference.

[jtryka]

So much of this reminds me that you have many more manifestations of the madness of crowds when the currency becomes disconnected with economic reality, as we have today.  Then when you have a set of folks that benefit from infinite currency printing, they start buying things to make themselves happy or to make themselves look better to their peers.  You have this with many situations in the art world, where people want to buy that new art for millions so they can say they spent millions on that new art, and you must be a rube if you don't recognize the value.  The same is true in memorabilia, or even coins - how often to very wealthy people build the finest graded sets of coins just so they can say they have the #1 set?  

Meanwhile there are others of us that are just happy with more simple things.  Like the Lincoln penny book I've had since I was in grammar school, that's still missing the 09-S VDB and 22 plain, or my extensive art collection that consists of paintings I've bought at thrift stores at a maximum price of $20.  None of them are museum quality, and none will be sold at auction by Sotheby's, but I like them and am happy they are one my walls so I can look at them whenever I like.  And if I ever want to see those million dollar pieces of art, the Art Institute isn't too far away! 

[Hoghead515]

Might as well get into virtual coin collecting as be a fractional owner. Someone will probably come up with that idea the way this country is going. 

[Hoghead515]

I outta patent that idea. Incase someone thinks of it and people are actually dumb enough to buy into it 

[Oldhoopster]

I’m thinking about selling 2% shares in a roll of wheat pennies.   The asset will be stored in a secure location in my sock drawer.  Thinking about an IPO of around $1/share (that includes commissions) .  Any interest? 

[Fenntucky Mike]

2 minutes ago, Oldhoopster said:

I’m thinking about selling 2% shares in a roll of wheat pennies.   The asset will be stored in a secure location in my sock drawer.  Thinking about an IPO of around $1/share (that includes commissions) .  Any interest? 

All my money is tied up in Brooklyn Bridge shares and pictures of clouds for my iCloud registry. 

[Revenant]

I've heard about the NFTs recently and the last week or so Yahoo Finance is blowing up my notifications about them. I have no words to describe how insane buying a tweet sounds. All I can do is scratch my head. I'm not touching any of it. Bitcoin made no sense to me and seemed like a bad idea at $7,000. At $60,000 it is just more proof to me that some people are just kinda gullible and dumb. But the NFTs? I just don't get why anyone would want that in it's current state as a "collectable."

I did listen to an interesting podcast cast talking about the idea of using NFTs as a mechanism to transfer home ownership or car ownership instead of deeds and titles, but that ties the NFT to being a claim to a specific physical object that the NFT owner possesses and uses... it isn't a tweet you can see for free online.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Revenant

[Hoghead515]

There will always be that one owner also that it's OK for him to take it home and show his family and friends but it's not ok for you to do it. Bad deal all the way around. 

[zadok]

i heard there is a savy guy in eastern kentucky that is going to sell a NFT of his pet possum for five figures in near future....soon as he can get possum to sign a release...

[Hoghead515]

1 hour ago, zadok said:

i heard there is a savy guy in eastern kentucky that is going to sell a NFT of his pet possum for five figures in near future....soon as he can get possum to sign a release...

If I don't get that NFT soon I'm gonna have to eat him. 

[zadok]

i also heard there is a savy possum in eastern kentucky trying to sell a NFT on a certain bearded lumberjack thats trying to eat him....

[Hoghead515]

56 minutes ago, zadok said:

i also heard there is a savy possum in eastern kentucky trying to sell a NFT on a certain bearded lumberjack thats trying to eat him....

He better hurry is all I can tell him. 

[GoldFinger1969]

Heritage just sold a PSA 9.5 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle Rookie Card for $12,600,000.  I was at the show when Alan "Mr. Mint" Rosen sold the card to the guy selling it for $50,000 back in 1991.  Unfortunately, I didn't have that much cash on me that day. 

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-cards/singles-1950-1959-/1952-topps-mickey-mantle-311-sgc-mint-95-1985-rosen-find-finest-known-example-/a/50058-53014.s?ic=hero-www-SportsPlatinumMantle-viewLot-50058-082822

Edited August 29, 2022 by GoldFinger1969

[GoldFinger1969]

Wow, I didn't know that Alan "Mr. Mint" Rosen had passed away over 5 years ago until clicking around reading articles about the Mantle card sale.   I must have totally missed it, but by then I had stopped writing my newsletter and listing famous people who died in the Off Topics section so I wasn't scanning the obits as much.

I found it interesting that apparently in his best year during the Baseball Card Bubble, Rosen said he did about $5.6 MM in transactions and made about $740,000 in (gross) income.  So basically he made about 12-15% margins buying and selling high-end cards.

[zadok]

On 8/29/2022 at 1:37 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Heritage just sold a PSA 9.5 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle Rookie Card for $12,600,000.  I was at the show when Alan "Mr. Mint" Rosen sold the card to the guy selling it for $50,000 back in 1991.  Unfortunately, I didn't have that much cash on me that day. 

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball-cards/singles-1950-1959-/1952-topps-mickey-mantle-311-sgc-mint-95-1985-rosen-find-finest-known-example-/a/50058-53014.s?ic=hero-www-SportsPlatinumMantle-viewLot-50058-082822

...im not sure that market or venue can continue to climb, would scare me to be that heavily invested in a baseball card, n it probably doesnt still have the bubblegum....

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/29/2022 at 9:48 AM, zadok said:

...im not sure that market or venue can continue to climb, would scare me to be that heavily invested in a baseball card, n it probably doesnt still have the bubblegum....

Yet that card produced a 20% compound annual return the last 31 years.  Wow.....

Let's see if this sale drags up the price of my Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan cards. 

[zadok]

On 8/29/2022 at 9:53 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Yet that card produced a 20% compound annual return the last 31 years.  Wow.....

Let's see if this sale drags up the price of my Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan cards. 

...lets see 20% of $20...dont quit ur day job....

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Reader Beware

Although a few good posts occur in this thread, the vast majority of it is repetitive back and forth tripe.
(4 pages of it; torturous, unending)

[GoldFinger1969]

On 8/30/2022 at 12:49 PM, USAuPzlBxBob said:

Reader Beware Although a few good posts occur in this thread, the vast majority of it is repetitive back and forth tripe. (4 pages of it; torturous, unending)

I think that is true of LOTS of threads here that many of us don't read.  This thread is no different.

OTOH, it does analyze the intersection of low-interest money, hobbies vs. investments, NFTs and baseball cards vs. coins, and other variables that affect our little niche.