Should ANA Deaccssion the Museum? 1 1

[World Colonial]

25 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

The Met has a big endowment and can make a few phone calls and get plenty of wealthy Manhattanites to give $$$ at any time.  

What the ANA should be doing is contacting some wealthy coin collectors and asking them to create a legacy by endowing the organization, conference, talks, lectures, prizes, etc.  Wealthy people like the idea of their name living on forever.

It's win-win. 

I suspect the ANS is a lot more successful at raising money but maybe I just have a much higher opinion of the organization.  Since it is more relevant to advanced collectors, I also believe their membership (though presumably notably smaller) is a lot more affluent and geographically distributed.  

Back in 2004 when I temporarily lived in NYC, I looked into joining the ANS.  The corporate secretary of investment bank Bear Stearns was the board chairman (or equivalent role) and their reception dinners to my recollection were $500 per person.  The membership was affordable but the other activities were and are not.

I want the ANA to survive and succeed, but I care a lot more about the ANS.

[zadok]

...interesting that many of the most prolific proponents of dismantling, relocating and deaccessing the ana r not members nor collectors, why would members or collectors listen to their opinions or recommendations without questioning their motives ... recommendations to move the ana to new york city, wash dc, chicago, los angeles other supposedly more sophisticated locations r simply inane, why would any collector, researcher or yn want to go to any of those locations in this day n age..."instigation of this heresy" was misinformed n wrong in the past n still is in the present...some members of this forum seem to have been living in prairie dog holes for the past few decades n r out of touch with the hobby n collectors, non-collectors usually r...there r many adjuncts to the hobby that provide individuals with influence, platforms n accolades, often inflated, that do not translate to well grounded opinions n recommendations for what is best for the hobby or the ana...there is always room for improvements n the ana is facing challenging times but it is currently well  situated geographically, financially n professionally...

[physics-fan3.14]

5 minutes ago, zadok said:

...interesting that many of the most prolific proponents of dismantling, relocating and deaccessing the ana r not members nor collectors, why would members or collectors listen to their opinions or recommendations without questioning their motives ... recommendations to move the ana to new york city, wash dc, chicago, los angeles other supposedly more sophisticated locations r simply inane, why would any collector, researcher or yn want to go to any of those locations in this day n age..."instigation of this heresy" was misinformed n wrong in the past n still is in the present...some members of this forum seem to have been living in prairie dog holes for the past few decades n r out of touch with the hobby n collectors, non-collectors usually r...there r many adjuncts to the hobby that provide individuals with influence, platforms n accolades, often inflated, that do not translate to well grounded opinions n recommendations for what is best for the hobby or the ana...there is always room for improvements n the ana is facing challenging times but it is currently well  situated geographically, financially n professionally...

I think the idea of co-locating the ANA museum with a mint facility is a fantastic idea. Shoot, even the Denver mint a hundred miles away would be better than where it is now. I think locating ANA headquarters in an intentionally out-of-the-way backwater town that's infrequently visited and maybe hard to get to is a terrible idea. This is supposed to be an organization servicing "American Numismatics" - it makes sense to locate it in a hub of American commerce or tourism. There are several major hubs - New York, DC, Atlanta, Denver, Chicago, LA.... I'm sure you could think of at least 10 different cities where there would be significantly higher traffic higher interest, higher attendance, and higher admission fees. Literally any town with a Mint or Fed Reserve Branch would make sense - a lot more sense than Colorado Springs. 

Now, New York already has the ANS, and DC has the NNC (if it ever gets a decent display of its own). I could argue you might not want to put it in one of those towns. But that still leaves a huge list of potential cities with major exposure where the ANA would have a better chance of being a major attraction and influence. 

[World Colonial]

16 minutes ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

I think the idea of co-locating the ANA museum with a mint facility is a fantastic idea. Shoot, even the Denver mint a hundred miles away would be better than where it is now. I think locating ANA headquarters in an intentionally out-of-the-way backwater town that's infrequently visited and maybe hard to get to is a terrible idea. This is supposed to be an organization servicing "American Numismatics" - it makes sense to locate it in a hub of American commerce or tourism. There are several major hubs - New York, DC, Atlanta, Denver, Chicago, LA.... I'm sure you could think of at least 10 different cities where there would be significantly higher traffic higher interest, higher attendance, and higher admission fees. Literally any town with a Mint or Fed Reserve Branch would make sense - a lot more sense than Colorado Springs. 

Now, New York already has the ANS, and DC has the NNC (if it ever gets a decent display of its own). I could argue you might not want to put it in one of those towns. But that still leaves a huge list of potential cities with major exposure where the ANA would have a better chance of being a major attraction and influence. 

You have some good points.  I'd locate it more centrally, like Dallas or Chicago due to the market size and airport facilities.

Ultimately though, I don't think most collectors really care about the ANA because it's not  relevant to their collecting.  When they think of the hobby or their participation in it, it doesn't even cross their mind.

Can the ANA improve or play a bigger role?  Sure, I think it can and should attempt to do so if that's what its members want.  But in the internet age, it's easier than ever to have a completely satisfactory collecting experience without it.

[GoldFinger1969]

People -- non-collectors, esp. -- are not aware of this museum.  I wasn't.  The 1933 Saint-Gaudens that was auctioned off in 2002 was/is located at the Federal Reserve Bank of NY in downtown Manhattan.

Very few people go to the NY Fed, except Fed Watchers, monetarist economists, and devotees of Milton Friedman. 

Edited October 28, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[Henri Charriere]

9 hours ago, RWB said:

Several years ago the ANA was presented with a unique opportunity. They were offered space to set up their museum, plus a small office, on the first floor of the U.S. Mint building in Washington, DC. As some might be aware, the Mint Bureau is prohibited by law from having a public museum, but the ANA museum could have been a fine surrogate. Imagine the potential for museum visitors and US Mint product sales. Imagine the potential for borrowing specimens from the Smithsonian - part of which was originally the Philadelphia Mint Cabinet of Coins, Medals and Ores. Mint management thought this was a great opportunity.

The deal failed largely because ANA would not take decisive action. Management felt removing the museum from Colorado Springs would "harm the organization." There are a host of other excuses for not carefully exploring this option. Maybe it was just ANA's inertia.

(I was the instigator of this heresy.)

You may have been the instigator of this heresy, but VKurtB committed on pixel paper to assuming a position on the Board of Governors and ultimately resolving this matter for generations to come, and I for one, once colorfully described as a mere ant on the back of an elephant's arse by a seasoned veteran, shall not submit to the impertinence of questioning his motive.

[1917]

12 hours ago, zadok said:

there is always room for improvements n the ana is facing challenging times but it is currently well  situated geographically, financially n professionally.

uh, literally every issue of the numismatist for the past who knows how many months has pres ellsworth talking about how the ana needs more donations, and needs layoffs, and needs cutbacks on the length of the magazine (at least like four articles have been cut out, and only one added). Not to mention exec director Kiick has been also writing about a need to raise more funds, in addition to the various fundraiser ideas the organization has been trying, such as the past president slabs thing.

Sure, you could argue that the ANA is well-situated in the middle of no-where, but the idea that they're financially okay is entirely off from the reality of the current situation.

And far as your question of why any collector would want to go to those larger cities? Perhaps some actually need more than one reason to actually get a on a plane and go somewhere, not to mention that in a big city, a trip to the museum could easily be "slid in" the schedule amongst whatever else they may be already going there for. (btw, I am a member of the ANA, and would support the ANA museum moving, if it were practical and possible from a financial perspective, which it's not). At the end of the day, consider this; is the Smithsonian in some out of the way place? Is any large, major museum? I guess it's a decision of how you see the ANA's museum; a small little place put together, or a institution containing one of the finest numismatic holdings in the world.

[Just Bob]

1 hour ago, 1917 said:

 At the end of the day, consider this; is the Smithsonian in some out of the way place? Is any large, major museum? I guess it's a decision of how you see the ANA's museum; a small little place put together, or a institution containing one of the finest numismatic holdings in the world.

I wouldn't call Cooperstown,NY, Canton,OH or Springfield, MA major cities, and I think those Hall of Fame museums compare more closely to a specialized museum like the ANA's than a large museum like the Smithsonian. That being said, I don't really care where the museum is located. If I want to see it badly enough, I will make the trip. Other's - especially non-collectors - would obviously feel different.

And, on the subject of the city of Colorado Springs: I have been there on three separate occasions. Aside from one motel that I would not recommend to house a dog, I liked the place, and would not consider it a "prairie dog" or "backwater" town. Just my opinion, of course.

[DWLange]

Among the primary missions of the ANA is education, and its annual Summer Seminar is held on the campus of Colorado College each June. While the college has been making things a little more difficult for the ANA in recent years, it's still a viable setting for this popular event. I've been going since the early 1980s and instructing there since 1995, and I can attest to its popularity and usefulness.

As for the ANA's numismatic holdings, many of its coins and notes are teaching tools in the various classes. The grading and counterfeit detection classes in particular sell out way in advance, and the coins utilized are almost entirely those in the ANA's possession. It would be challenging to conduct these classes without them. Many of the instructors are coin dealers, rather than collectors, and they can't afford to retain hundreds of coins simply for their annual classes. Even if they did have these coins in stock at the right time, it would be burdensome to travel with them and might discourage further participation. Having a standing array of teaching tools is essential to the ANA's educational mission.

[GoldFinger1969]

41 minutes ago, Just Bob said:

I wouldn't call Cooperstown,NY, Canton,OH or Springfield, MA major cities, and I think those Hall of Fame museums compare more closely to a specialized museum like the ANA's than a large museum like the Smithsonian.

Those 3 sports museums are constantly being referenced by anybody who follows those sports.  You know where they are located.  I didn't know that the ANA had a museum or where it was located.

Also, if you are visiting NYC or Upstate NY (i.e., Niagara Falls), then Cooperstown is only a few hours drive away.  Not sure about the NFL and NBA HOFs.

[Coinbuf]

Moving the museum to a destination city would greatly enhance the ANA's ability to increase the publics awareness of both the ANA and numismatics in general.  One location not already mentioned is Las Vegas, there are a number of cool specialized museums located there, the mob museum is very cool.  Granted not every tourist is going to go but it would be a great place to get exposure and as already noted having the museum located in a destination city would make it easier for collectors to add the stop to the family vacation plan.

[Zebo]

4 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

Moving the museum to a destination city would greatly enhance the ANA's ability to increase the publics awareness of both the ANA and numismatics in general.  One location not already mentioned is Las Vegas, there are a number of cool specialized museums located there, the mob museum is very cool.  Granted not every tourist is going to go but it would be a great place to get exposure and as already noted having the museum located in a destination city would make it easier for collectors to add the stop to the family vacation plan.

Who wants to go see money after losing all of your money at the gaming tables? 

just joking

[GoldFinger1969]

12 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

Moving the museum to a destination city would greatly enhance the ANA's ability to increase the publics awareness of both the ANA and numismatics in general.  One location not already mentioned is Las Vegas, there are a number of cool specialized museums located there, the mob museum is very cool.  Granted not every tourist is going to go but it would be a great place to get exposure and as already noted having the museum located in a destination city would make it easier for collectors to add the stop to the family vacation plan.

Not a bad idea.  And also having it located in a big city near other museums also works.

Las Vegas is intriguing.  It would be the only thing that is non-gambling to see pretty much so you could get decent exposure from the tourist bureau, hotel desks, etc.  There's alot more things to do in LA, NYC, etc.

[Coinbuf]

1 minute ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Not a bad idea.  And also having it located in a big city near other museums also works.

Las Vegas is intriguing.  It would be the only thing that is non-gambling to see pretty much so you could get decent exposure from the tourist bureau, hotel desks, etc.  There's alot more things to do in LA, NYC, etc.

Actually there are a number of non-gambling things to do and see in Vegas now days, I noted the mob museum but there is the National Atomic Testing Museum, a couple of automobile collection/displays, and many other things to do.  Vegas in no longer just a gambling stop.  NYC is a mess and while it does have a few cultural venues the high crime rate and costs of the area make it a less than desirable destination for family vacations.  LA is better for family events (if any of those venues ever get open again) but again the high costs, traffic and the crime rates make it a difficult choice.

[World Colonial]

53 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Those 3 sports museums are constantly being referenced by anybody who follows those sports.  You know where they are located.  I didn't know that the ANA had a museum or where it was located.

Also, if you are visiting NYC or Upstate NY (i.e., Niagara Falls), then Cooperstown is only a few hours drive away.  Not sure about the NFL and NBA HOFs.

The NFL Hall Of Fame is located in Canton, OH.  I don't know about the NBA. 

The College Football HOF moved to Atlanta from South Bend, IN several years ago, presumably for a similar reason but I have never been there even though it's the only sport I closely follow and live about 10 miles away.  It's situated near Centennial Olympic Park, CNN Center, the Atlanta Aquarium, World of Coca-Cola and a few other attractions.

I have no idea how many visit any of these.  All I can tell you is that I see no parallel for any of them with any stand-alone museum for coins.  All of these sports have a much broader cultural appeal and in many instances are more interesting even to coin collectors. 

It's not like the NNC which is part of a much bigger attraction; the Smithsonian.  If the NNC were moved somewhere else by itself to a less visited destination, the visitor count would also collapse.

This isn't a knock on coins or any of these collections, it's just reality.

[World Colonial]

3 minutes ago, Coinbuf said:

NYC is a mess and while it does have a few cultural venues the high crime rate and costs of the area make it a less than desirable destination for family vacations.  

NYC  has more than a few cultural venues, it's just that most people have never heard of most.  I agree with you the cost makes it less than ideal for family vacations but don't see crime as a problem as long as the person uses common sense. 

I was there last December for two weeks (for work) but first time since 2006.  Used to go a lot up until then.  Spent months to more than half the year every year (mostly in downtown Manhattan) between 1999 and 2005 and really liked it. (I was on an expense account, not my own dime except during 2004.)

However, I wouldn't put the ANA museum there because of the cost and it's home to the ANS.

[VKurtB]

A couple of factual corrections:

Colorado Springs is not some Podunk town. It's population is almost a half million, only a bit lower than Denver's. It is part of one of the fastest growing areas in the U.S., the east slope of the Colorado Rockies.

The ANA is on the campus of Colorado College and the building was offered to the ANA for FREE. That beat any other offer, and has a head start on any likely one.

The ANA HQ celebrated the 50th anniversary of being there right after the Denver ANA show in 2017.

It is decidedly NOT difficult to get to.

The entire staff lives in the CS area. Do you  REALLY want to inconvenience absolutely EVERYONE on staff?

[GoldFinger1969]

49 minutes ago, World Colonial said:

NYC  has more than a few cultural venues, it's just that most people have never heard of most.  I agree with you the cost makes it less than ideal for family vacations but don't see crime as a problem as long as the person uses common sense. 

Well, I'm biased having lived in the suburbs my entire life, but just off the top of my head in less than 1 minute I come up with:  Empire State Building, Freedom Tower, Statue of Liberty, Circle Line or Bear Mountain Boat Rides, taking in a Mets/Yankees/Knicks/Nets/Rangers/Devils/Islanders/Jets/Giants game, famous restaurants, Broadway plays, scenic drives in NJ, NY, and Long Island; MOMA and other museums including Natural History, Flushing/Corona 1964 World's Fair, etc.

Edited October 28, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[World Colonial]

38 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Well, I'm biased having lived in the suburbs my entire life, but just off the top of my head in less than 1 minute I come up with:  Empire State Building, Freedom Tower, Statue of Liberty, Circle Line or Bear Mountain Boat Rides, taking in a Mets/Yankees/Knicks/Nets/Rangers/Devils/Islanders/Jets/Giants game, famous restaurants, Broadway plays, scenic drives in NJ, NY, and Long Island; MOMA and other museums including Natural History, Flushing/Corona 1964 World's Fair, etc.

Maybe DC competes well with NYC for attractions among US cities but I don't think anywhere else does.

I know your list wasn't intended to be complete, but you left off the Brooklyn Museum and the botanical gardens right next door as two more.  Both are really good.

Also, one stop outside Manhattan on the North Metro line from Grand Central is Tarrytown where I visited the Rockefeller estate, Kykuit in 2003.  It's managed/owned by the NY Historical Society and not sure most New Yorkers even know it is there.  It's at the highest point in the Hudson River Valley (purportedly) and the view is incredible.  The house isn't that impressive for someone as rich as them but the grounds sure are.  4500 or 7500 acres for the entire estate at the time, tree canopy covering both sides of the road to it from the ticket outlet by bus.  Loved it.

[VKurtB]

… the "walk-through" Museum of the Mishandling of the Pandemic, on heck, on EVERY stinking Avenue...

Sorry, @GoldFinger1969, New York has taken a really hard hit on my "places to go" list. I honestly am having a hard time thinking of EVER going back into Manhattan. And I am not only a theatre fan, I used to perform in it.

Edited October 28, 2020 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

12 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Sorry, @GoldFinger1969, New York has taken a really hard hit on my "places to go" list. I honestly am having a hard time thinking of EVER going back into Manhattan. And I am not only a theatre fan, I used to perform in it.

As soon as the natives wise up and throw out Bill DeBlowio, things can return to semi-normal.  Worst mayor in NYC history by far.  David Dinkins and John Lindsay are off the hook.

[VKurtB]

Just now, GoldFinger1969 said:

As soon as the natives wise up and throw out Bill DeBlowio, things can return to semi-normal.  Worst mayor in NYC history by far.  David Dinkins and John Lindsay are off the hook.

At least NYC never had to endure Wilson Goode.

[RWB]

If the ANA museum coins and medals are sold off, how should the money be used?

[Henri Charriere]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

A couple of factual corrections:

Colorado Springs is not some Podunk town. It's population is almost a half million, only a bit lower than Denver's. It is part of one of the fastest growing areas in the U.S., the east slope of the Colorado Rockies.

The ANA is on the campus of Colorado College and the building was offered to the ANA for FREE. That beat any other offer, and has a head start on any likely one.

The ANA HQ celebrated the 50th anniversary of being there right after the Denver ANA show in 2017.

It is decidedly NOT difficult to get to.

The entire staff lives in the CS area. Do you  REALLY want to inconvenience absolutely EVERYONE on staff?

The ANA earlier this week announced a 10% across-the-board cut to their operating budget extending into next year.  Having read every comment made by the contributors to this Forum regarding the ANA, while I can't put a finger on it and say, Here's where the problem lies, I trust that your contemplated role as a member of their Board of Governors will, without violating confidentiality, give the membership here a fully-struck diagnostic much like they give used cars.

[VKurtB]

6 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

The ANA earlier this week announced a 10% across-the-board cut to their operating budget extending into next year.  Having read every comment made by the contributors to this Forum regarding the ANA, while I can't put a finger on it and say, Here's where the problem lies, I trust that your contemplated role as a member of their Board of Governors will, without violating confidentiality, give the membership here a fully-struck diagnostic much like they give used cars.

From the changes already done at this year's Board meetings (I have had to install Zoom, and I'm not happy about it.), I'd say 10% is already a fait accompli. 

If you'd like a list of the attendees at 2020 Board of Governors meetings who are not present Board members or Committee members of Committees reporting, the list is below:

Me

 

Guess upon whom the extra workload at conventions will fall. Yup, National Volunteers. There are presently 15 of us or so. Again, me.

Edited October 28, 2020 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

By the way, most first-timers running for Board seats lose, and I'm not special. I'll likely lose too. But you can't get known any other way.

[World Colonial]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

If the ANA museum coins and medals are sold off, how should the money be used?

The ideal choice would be to do what @GoldFinger1969recommended, set up an endowment.  But I agree with the prior post that sufficient examples should be kept for the seminars.

Problem with this is that's it's unlikely to be substantial enough to generate any noticeable income, especially by taking "prudent" risks in today's casino financial markets.

A better option would be to find a way to get permission to liquidate that private company stock if they can do it.  

As to how it should be used, I presume they have polled the membership to get an idea what's important to them.  Or, have their own internally drafted strategic plan but maybe that's too much too expect.  I'd start with that.

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

At least NYC never had to endure Wilson Goode.

I'd take WG over the current clown in NYC any day.  I give Goode credit for bombing MOVE, just should have probably stormed the place to avoid dead kids.

[VKurtB]

11 minutes ago, World Colonial said:

The ideal choice would be to do what @GoldFinger1969recommended, set up an endowment.  But I agree with the prior post that sufficient examples should be kept for the seminars.

Problem with this is that's it's unlikely to be substantial enough to generate any noticeable income, especially by taking "prudent" risks in today's casino financial markets.

A better option would be to find a way to get permission to liquidate that private company stock if they can do it.  

As to how it should be used, I presume they have polled the membership to get an idea what's important to them.  Or, have their own internally drafted strategic plan but maybe that's too much too expect.  I'd start with that.

The Ben E. Keith stock, while not TOTALLY liquid, is as liquid as most of the other assets.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

If the ANA museum coins and medals are sold off, how should the money be used?

Fund an endowment for rainy days and increase marketing and social media spending.

If I buy a coin on HA or Ebay and a pop-up says "Eliminate Coin Fraud -- Join The ANA" -- that's a great way to recruit.

Edited October 28, 2020 by GoldFinger1969