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What's Happening at the ANA?
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162 posts in this topic

29 minutes ago, World Colonial said:

I'd never in a million years leave a cent of other assets to any non-profit, coin related or not.  It would get wasted on administrative overhead or payroll.  I know those who work there need to make a living and plan for the future like we do, I'm just never going to contribute to it.  All my assets are going to immediate family and a handful of others important to me.

You can insure it's used for specific benefits.  Our local astronomy club is starting up a foundation which will benefit the public greatly.

Don't knock administrative overhead and payroll.  They ARE important.  I'm not talking about a super-fat salary, paid up country club memberships, and free cars and other gluttonous perks.  But I can tell you that for many of us in our Club it is a 2nd job that we volunteer for  -- PT for most, FT for 1 or 2 -- to do the work in the club.  Quite frankly, we probably NEED 1 paid FT person and maybe 2-3 other PT people to efficiently run the club.  Just to effectively do social media (Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.) you need someone dedicated at the job who can manuever around those sites and do it CONSISTENTLY every few days.  You can't go weeks or months (or years !) between posts as we have in the past.

At best, having paid staff makes an organization more efficient.  At the extreme, it can make the difference between a small, non-profit club surviving for the next generation.

And this virus has certainly shown that many businesses and non-profits can't survive a steep economic contraction in activity.  You have to have a rainy day fund to tide you over.  You can cut FT and PT staff during those times, but you need the foundation to be paying them in the first place.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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It is my understanding that there are areas of the ANA that are overfunded. For example, supposedly the Young Numismatists is over-funded. Perhaps the ANA needs to get tough and stop allowing donations to be restricted to certain areas. It should be, "Give us your donation and tell us where you'd like it applied (but there is no guarantee it will be applied in that area if there are more pressing concerns)."

Maybe they should refuse donations of coins if the person donating requires that they not be sold. Flat out, if you can't trust the ANA to do what's in the best interest of the ANA with your donation, then you can keep your donation. 

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4 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

You can insure it's used for specific benefits.  Our local astronomy club is starting up a foundation which will benefit the public greatly.

Don't knock administrative overhead and payroll.  They ARE important.  I'm not talking about a super-fat salary, paid up country club memberships, and free cars and other gluttonous perks.  But I can tell you that for many of us in our Club it is a 2nd job that we volunteer for  -- PT for most, FT for 1 or 2 -- to do the work in the club.  Quite frankly, we probably NEED 1 paid FT person and maybe 2-3 other PT people to efficiently run the club.  Just to effectively do social media (Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, etc.) you need someone dedicated at the job who can manuever around those sites and do it CONSISTENTLY every few days.  You can't go weeks or months (or years !) between posts as we have in the past.

At best, having paid staff makes an organization more efficient.  At the extreme, it can make the difference between a small, non-profit club surviving for the next generation.

And this virus has certainly shown that many businesses and non-profits can't survive a steep economic contraction in activity.  You have to have a rainy day fund to tide you over.  You can cut FT and PT staff during those times, but you need the foundation to be paying them in the first place.

I'm not disagreeing with you that some overhead is necessary.  In the past, 20% was the number I heard as efficient.  More recently, I have heard it is 30%.  If both are accurate, I'd attribute it to inflation especially for employee benefits.  I'm just not willing to pay for it, ANA or any other one.

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4 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

Maybe they should refuse donations of coins if the person donating requires that they not be sold. Flat out, if you can't trust the ANA to do what's in the best interest of the ANA with your donation, then you can keep your donation. 

My guess is many or most would choose to give coin donations elsewhere, like the ANS which I infer is a better run organization.  My assumption is that these bequest restrictions can be ignored anyway in emergencies, actual or not.  I'm not familiar with the specifics.

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5 hours ago, World Colonial said:

I'm not disagreeing with you that some overhead is necessary.  In the past, 20% was the number I heard as efficient.  More recently, I have heard it is 30%.  If both are accurate, I'd attribute it to inflation especially for employee benefits.  I'm just not willing to pay for it, ANA or any other one.

If ANA is AGGRESSIVELY defending my rights as a coin collector and numismatist and going after anti-bullion, anti-collecting laws.....then I am HAPPY to pay up and pay for quality. 

I know lobbying and legal takes $$$.  You don't have to match Silicon Valley paychecks and maybe employees working for ANA are or were coin collectors who will take a "hometown discount."  But you won't get quality for $25/hour....you have to pay some nice 6-figure salaries.

JMHO.

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13 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

If ANA is AGGRESSIVELY defending my rights as a coin collector and numismatist and going after anti-bullion, anti-collecting laws.....then I am HAPPY to pay up and pay for quality. 

I know lobbying and legal takes $$$.  You don't have to match Silicon Valley paychecks and maybe employees working for ANA are or were coin collectors who will take a "hometown discount."  But you won't get quality for $25/hour....you have to pay some nice 6-figure salaries.

JMHO.

You raise a good point but it takes some serious money to lobby effectively.  There is that Minnesota law but haven't heard of anything else that will impact enough US collectors.  Heard of some stupid proposals with the potential to negatively impact ancient and other "heritage" coins but doubt US collectors are sufficiently motivated to join the ANA in sufficient numbers at much higher dues to pay for it.

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14 hours ago, World Colonial said:

You raise a good point but it takes some serious money to lobby effectively.  There is that Minnesota law but haven't heard of anything else that will impact enough US collectors.  Heard of some stupid proposals with the potential to negatively impact ancient and other "heritage" coins but doubt US collectors are sufficiently motivated to join the ANA in sufficient numbers at much higher dues to pay for it.

Because of their charter and the IRS code, the ANA is extremely limited as to lobbying. If that confuses you, keep in mind that the ANA is far older than the IRS is. Their initial mission got partially squashed/

Edited by VKurtB
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20 hours ago, gmarguli said:

For example, supposedly the Young Numismatists is over-funded.

I mean this with all seriousness. In the approximately 25 years that I've been an active member, I can't remember even one Board member or staffer say the Young Numismatists was overfunded, not one. Is it? I dunno, how much is right? I do know this - EVERYBODY in the ANA "management" is YN-obsessed. "I believe that children are our future, teach them well and let them lead the way..." Okay, enough Whitney Houston.

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13 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

I mean this with all seriousness. In the approximately 25 years that I've been an active member, I can't remember even one Board member or staffer say the Young Numismatists was overfunded, not one. Is it? I dunno, how much is right? I do know this - EVERYBODY in the ANA "management" is YN-obsessed. "I believe that children are our future, teach them well and let them lead the way..." Okay, enough Whitney Houston.

I didn't mean that the ANA Board overfunded it, but rather the amount of funds set aside for it was way more than needed. Maybe 10 years ago I received a donation request card from the ANA and it asked where you wanted your donation to be applied. A person who was "involved" with the ANA posted on the forums that everyone selects the YN section and that there is more than enough money set aside for YNs while other parts of the ANA were struggling because everyone wants to support the YNs. I don't know if it was true, but the person was a credible source and the reasoning sounds very reasonable.

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51 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

I didn't mean that the ANA Board overfunded it, but rather the amount of funds set aside for it was way more than needed. Maybe 10 years ago I received a donation request card from the ANA and it asked where you wanted your donation to be applied. A person who was "involved" with the ANA posted on the forums that everyone selects the YN section and that there is more than enough money set aside for YNs while other parts of the ANA were struggling because everyone wants to support the YNs. I don't know if it was true, but the person was a credible source and the reasoning sounds very reasonable.

One thing I do know that was "overfunded" is the money.org website. Somebody saw them coming on that one. Yes, it has some nice features, but someone's laughing all the way to the bank. And a lot of the core membership doesn't even like it as well as its predecessor site. Coolest thing: complete searchable (even for the ads, I believe) digital The Numismatist. Dumbest thing: the member blogs. It's like the worst of CoinTalk on steroids.

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20 hours ago, gmarguli said:

I didn't mean that the ANA Board overfunded it, but rather the amount of funds set aside for it was way more than needed. Maybe 10 years ago I received a donation request card from the ANA and it asked where you wanted your donation to be applied. A person who was "involved" with the ANA posted on the forums that everyone selects the YN section and that there is more than enough money set aside for YNs while other parts of the ANA were struggling because everyone wants to support the YNs. I don't know if it was true, but the person was a credible source and the reasoning sounds very reasonable.

The irony is, focussing so much resources on the YNs probably have the least benefit to the hobby as a whole. Sure, you might grab a few every once in a while who go on to become collectors (and stay collectors throughout their life - like myself), and you might get some who come back to the hobby later - but I'll bet the vast majority of YNs take their coins, take their book, take their boy scout merit badge and shove it in a box and forget about it. 

I'd wager a far better use of resources would be to develop, teach, engage active adult collectors. 

Now, this may sound harsh or mean because our hobby has "YNs are the future!" so deeply embedded into our philosophy that questioning the traditional wisdom may seem like heresy. Sure, YNs may be the future - 30 or 40 years from now. I just think a hobby organization like this might get more benefit from focusing on the active hobby. 

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Physics-Fan3.14 hit an important point: Most do not actively enter and remain in the hobby until they have a settled adult life. Children and teens no longer have the resource of collecting from circulation, and that reduces the reward-pleasure-repeat cycle that existed before the mid-1960s. 

ANA leadership and management do not seem to understand this, or incorporate new ideas into targeted education. They also fail to understand that ANA was once a leader in hobby policy, but has rendered itself impotent by abrogating collector authority to commercial entities.

Congress is not going to charter any more ANA-type organizations. So ANA can either take charge or drift into oblivion.

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3 hours ago, RWB said:

Physics-Fan3.14 hit an important point: Most do not actively enter and remain in the hobby until they have a settled adult life. Children and teens no longer have the resource of collecting from circulation, and that reduces the reward-pleasure-repeat cycle that existed before the mid-1960s. 

More competing recreational alternatives for their time and money versus the 1960's.  Even if it were possible to reintroduce silver coinage into circulation, I don't see any reason to believe that folder and album collecting would regain it's prior appeal.  Collecting as a recreational activity just isn't as competitive as it used to be.

3 hours ago, RWB said:

ANA leadership and management do not seem to understand this, or incorporate new ideas into targeted education. They also fail to understand that ANA was once a leader in hobby policy, but has rendered itself impotent by abrogating collector authority to commercial entities.

The internet has reduced the ANA's relevance to collectors.  I haven't ever seen much if any comment on it, but I assume that membership and it's relevance is also at least somewhat correlated to active participation in (local) coin clubs.

If this true, how does club membership now compare to the past?  I infer some clubs (EAC, Bust Half Nut, Liberty Seated Collectors Society, CONECA) which focus on a targeted segment are doing well.  Generalist clubs not as much though it varies by location and leadership.  I thought about attending a meeting at the Metropolitan Coin Club of Atlanta but never made it a priority.  Obviously, it isn't important enough or I would do it.

3 hours ago, RWB said:

Congress is not going to charter any more ANA-type organizations. So ANA can either take charge or drift into oblivion.

I don't see that Congressional action makes any difference.  I also don't see that the ANA will have significantly more influence even if changes its' priorities. 

With the internet and modern communication, anyone can have a totally satisfactory collecting experience their entire life while still ignoring it.  It also has less relevance to the increasing number of US collectors who do not focus on US coinage.  For me, I could benefit from the course on counterfeit detection but doubt much else, including the grading course.  The library might have some reference material of interest to me, but much or most of it might end up in the NNP later anyway.

Edited by World Colonial
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4 hours ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

Sure, YNs may be the future - 30 or 40 years from now.

I figured I should chime in, seeing as how I have a somewhat rare perspective as a 24 year old numismatist. I never took advantage of any ANA YN programs but I was lucky enough to have multiple mentors that helped me grow my knowledge of numismatics. Most of my friends that did participate in ANA YN programs still had a mentor that helped them throughout the years. It is still very important to have substantial funding for YN programs, but as a community we should be doing everything possible to share our knowledge with anyone willing to learn and give first hand experience when possible. I understand a lot of YN's leave the hobby but there is still a relatively large group us younger guys/girls shaping the community today.          

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5 hours ago, KStouch said:

I figured I should chime in, seeing as how I have a somewhat rare perspective as a 24 year old numismatist. I never took advantage of any ANA YN programs but I was lucky enough to have multiple mentors that helped me grow my knowledge of numismatics. Most of my friends that did participate in ANA YN programs still had a mentor that helped them throughout the years. It is still very important to have substantial funding for YN programs, but as a community we should be doing everything possible to share our knowledge with anyone willing to learn and give first hand experience when possible. I understand a lot of YN's leave the hobby but there is still a relatively large group us younger guys/girls shaping the community today.          

KS - I hear you. 

I personally was attracted to the hobby when I was 10, through the influence of my grandfather. Through my teen years, I mostly pursued the hobby on my own with no mentorship. It wasn't until I discovered the NGC forums in college that I really began to grow as a numismatist. 

I don't want to deny the significance of people like us who were YNs and developed into adult collectors. And, I'll bet you can find many significant collectors who followed our path. 

My main point is - how many of us are these lifelong YN's who stick with the hobby, compared to the adults who find the hobby later in life. If the ANA has limited resources, how much should be devoted to the YNs compared to the adult collectors who are the real heart of the hobby?

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RE: "I don't see that Congressional action makes any difference.  I also don't see that the ANA will have significantly more influence even if changes its' priorities."

A Federal charter adds immensely to an organization's potential for meaningful influence. This would be very helpful in prosecuting counterfeiters, establishing enforceable standards to protect consumers, and veracity of commercial promotional statements (a bit like the UL Seal).

The present ANA does nothing, so it is hardly the force it was a couple of generations ago when exposure of fakes, HPA, and independent authentication were meaningful ANA projects.

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2 hours ago, RWB said:

RE: "I don't see that Congressional action makes any difference.  I also don't see that the ANA will have significantly more influence even if changes its' priorities."

A Federal charter adds immensely to an organization's potential for meaningful influence. This would be very helpful in prosecuting counterfeiters, establishing enforceable standards to protect consumers, and veracity of commercial promotional statements (a bit like the UL Seal).

The present ANA does nothing, so it is hardly the force it was a couple of generations ago when exposure of fakes, HPA, and independent authentication were meaningful ANA projects.

How does this charter provide this potential?  I haven't read it and don't have familiarity with federal charters generally..  

The reason I ask is because I don't believe the more recent generations of collectors (Gen-Y and Gen-Z) generally are impressed with a federal charter (even if aware of it and know what it is) or give it any credence.  Maybe those around my age (I'm 55) and older think it means something (I don't) but can't answer that either.

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22 minutes ago, World Colonial said:

How does this charter provide this potential?  I haven't read it and don't have familiarity with federal charters generally..  

The reason I ask is because I don't believe the more recent generations of collectors (Gen-Y and Gen-Z) generally are impressed with a federal charter (even if aware of it and know what it is) or give it any credence.  Maybe those around my age (I'm 55) and older think it means something (I don't) but can't answer that either.

A Federal charter adds to the credibility of an organization.

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IRS says:

"The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals. The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion; advancement of education or science; erecting or maintaining public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burdens of government; lessening neighborhood tensions; eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency."

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48 minutes ago, RWB said:

IRS says:

"The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and preventing cruelty to children or animals. The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion; advancement of education or science; erecting or maintaining public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burdens of government; lessening neighborhood tensions; eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency."

Right, but are they set-up as a 501(c)-3 ?  They definitely qualify.

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40 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Right, but are they set-up as a 501(c)-3 ?  They definitely qualify.

From the Charter, Article 13, Section 4:

"Elected Officials, Officers, Special Officers and key employees are prohibited from taking any action or doing any act that could jeopardize the Association's 501(c)(3) nonprofit status."

So, yes, apparently it is set up that way.

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Saddest thread I have ever had the misfortune of reading.  I had always wondered why The ANA was not the premier TPGS in the nation.  VKurtB dropped a few jewels of wisdom over the past few months but this post was the final nail in the coffin.  If VKurtB wants to join the Board of Governors, as presently constituted with one primary Type A calling the shots, I hope he realizes only a top-to-bottom reorganization and a comprehensive audit from an accredited company will be mandatory to put the association back on track.

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33 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I had always wondered why The ANA was not the premier TPGS in the nation.  

You wanted the ANA to get into the business and commerical side by grading coins ?

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3 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

You wanted the ANA to get into the business and commerical side by grading coins ?

Too late for that, even assuming the board wanted to do it.  That ship sailed long ago.  The only way NGC or PCGS are going to be dislodged from their market leading incumbent position is through their own ineptitude.  Otherwise, no one has any motive to change the status quo.

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1 hour ago, World Colonial said:

The only way NGC or PCGS are going to be dislodged from their market leading incumbent position is through their own ineptitude.  Otherwise, no one has any motive to change the status quo.

No company, not matter how big or how much market share, stays on top forever. 

I think that it is highly likely that another company comes along within the next 20 years and displaces one or both of them. Technology will replace the human grader at some point. Right now it is the eye appeal factor that computers cannot nail down. Once this problem is solved, we'll have a company that has a computer that can assign an accurate and stable grade to a coin within a couple of seconds. 

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18 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

No company, not matter how big or how much market share, stays on top forever. 

I think that it is highly likely that another company comes along within the next 20 years and displaces one or both of them. Technology will replace the human grader at some point. Right now it is the eye appeal factor that computers cannot nail down. Once this problem is solved, we'll have a company that has a computer that can assign an accurate and stable grade to a coin within a couple of seconds. 

The success of a grading service isn't just determined by "accuracy" of grading, since it's only an opinion.  The most important factor is how much the coins in a particular TPG holder are valued by the market.  If someone with sufficient stature is prominently associated with this prospective future service (as in JA with CAC), what you describe is realistic.  Otherwise, the most valuable coins will just get cracked out or crossed to another holder, if it's submitted at all.

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20 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

You wanted the ANA to get into the business and commerical side by grading coins ?

They did that already. ANACS began as the official authentication department of the ANA, and then became the first TPG in the 1970's. They sold ANACS to CoinWorld in 1989. 

https://coinweek.com/education/coin-grading/history-first-third-party-coin-grading-service-anacs/

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1 hour ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

They did that already. ANACS began as the official authentication department of the ANA, and then became the first TPG in the 1970's. They sold ANACS to CoinWorld in 1989. 

Interesting that with a decade-long head start, they couldn't make bigger inroads but that both PCGS and NGC took off when they came into being in the 1980's.

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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27 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Interesting that with a decade-long head start, they couldn't make bigger inroads but that both PCGS and NGC took off when they came into being in the 1980's.

Read part 2 here: https://coinweek.com/education/coin-grading/history-first-third-party-coin-grading-service-part-two/

ANACS took off like gangbusters - they were doing 10,000 coins a month. 

The difference is, at the time, ANACS was not encapsulating coins. They were issuing photo certificates, but the coins were not slabbed. 

PCGS, and then a year later NGC, both encapsulated the coins from the very beginning. Clearly, the market decided that this was preferable to just a certificate. 

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