What's Happening at the ANA? 1 1

[GoldFinger1969]

21 minutes ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

Read part 2 here: https://coinweek.com/education/coin-grading/history-first-third-party-coin-grading-service-part-two/   ANACS took off like gangbusters - they were doing 10,000 coins a month.   The difference is, at the time, ANACS was not encapsulating coins. They were issuing photo certificates, but the coins were not slabbed. 

PCGS, and then a year later NGC, both encapsulated the coins from the very beginning. Clearly, the market decided that this was preferable to just a certificate. 

Wow, didn't know that, thanks PF.

10,000 coins today is nothing.  I bet PCGS and NGC do that in a week.

[World Colonial]

3 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wow, didn't know that, thanks PF.

10,000 coins today is nothing.  I bet PCGS and NGC do that in a week.

There was no NCLT.  Take that out and both probably still do more but the difference will be less.

[Conder101]

15 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

10,000 coins today is nothing.  I bet PCGS and NGC do that in a week.

They do now, but back when they started 10,000 coins would have been a good month.  It has been several years now  but the last figures I saw for the top TPG's was around 250,000 per month.

On 10/23/2020 at 7:11 PM, physics-fan3.14 said:

My main point is - how many of us are these lifelong YN's who stick with the hobby, compared to the adults who find the hobby later in life. If the ANA has limited resources, how much should be devoted to the YNs compared to the adult collectors who are the real heart of the hobby?

The number of lifelong YN's who started young and stayed with the hobbie all through their life is small.  I also suspect the number of collectors who had no interest in coins until late in life is also small.  I think the vast majority of collectors followed the route of exposure and collecting briefly while young then put it aside for 20 to 40 years while they grew up raised a family and got settled in their careers and then returned to the hobby.  If that is true, then whith out that exposure while they are young the hobby will have to depend in the long run on that small number of collectors  that never started until later in life.  And that I think is a sure road to an ever aging dwindling collector base.  I think collectors of anything are born not made, but they need the exposure to kindle the interest and desire.  But after the exposure it takes time to develop.  It's like planting a fruit or nut tree, you will get a sapling pretty quickly but it will be years before it starts bearing fruit.

 

On 10/24/2020 at 12:51 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I had always wondered why The ANA was not the premier TPGS in the nation. 

At one time they were.  But as it grew there was concern that it was becoming to commercial an enterprise and it would intrud on their tax exempt status, so ANACS was sold to private hands to become a commercial business.

 

16 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Interesting that with a decade-long head start, they couldn't make bigger inroads but that both PCGS and NGC took off when they came into being in the 1980's.

ANACS was owned by a non-profit and their prices were low because they were trying to run it as a for profit business. They didn't have the advertising and marketing force that PCGS and NGC did.   Add to that the fact that they stayed with the photocetificates for close to four years after the market embraced the concept of slabbing resulted in them being supplanted.

 

15 hours ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

PCGS, and then a year later NGC, both encapsulated the coins from the very beginning. Clearly, the market decided that this was preferable to just a certificate.

Probably because the coin and certificate were not physically joined together.  It was to easy for them to become separtated, and there was always the question of "did this coin go with that certificate?"  This actually resulted in a thriving market is sales of certificates.  Certificates would be bought and sold for dealers to combine with another non authenticated coin to increase its price and marketability.

[Insider]

20 hours ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

They did that already. ANACS began as the official authentication department of the ANA, and then became the first TPG in the 1970's. They sold ANACS to CoinWorld in 1989. 

https://coinweek.com/education/coin-grading/history-first-third-party-coin-grading-service-anacs/

Just to correct the record and I don't blame anyone for believing the "fabricated myth" perpetrated chiefly by certain parties in the ANA administration over the years.  You see, if you tell a lie long enough everyone will believe it.  Tom and I have had this talk before so this is probably an old article. 

The ANA's Certification Service was the FIRST authentication service.  I worked there shortly after it started.   The ANA's Certification Service was the SECOND third-party grading service.   I worked at the FIRST TPGS at the INS Authentication Bureau in DC.  We graded customers coins for free!  The grade was sent out on a buff card separate from the authentication certificate because Charles Hoskins (former Director at the ANA's service) believed that GRADING WAS A KNOWLEDGEABLE OPINION subject to a different opinion.  When the INSAB went out of business due to losing market share after PCGS and NGC came along, the ANA's Certification Service became and is now the OLDEST TPGS. 

Therefore, Tom was incorrect when he wrote this but he knows better now:  "But third-party grading didn’t always exist. I started it on behalf of the non-profit American Numismatic Association on March 1, 1979."  Tom helped to start the SECOND TPGS months after our service - the first - had been up and running for several months!   The boys at the ANA also claimed to use "Technical Grading" but they had no clue what it actually was or how to apply it because none of them were around at the time it was first used!  

BTW Hoskins welcomed the ANA's "new" service because he though everyone should be able to get a second opinion from a credible organization.  We also welcomed the additional revenue as now we started to charge customers if they wanted our, formerly free, grading opinion. 

I'll probably need to add more corrections later as I read through this thread.

[Insider]

19 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Interesting that with a decade-long head start, they couldn't make bigger inroads but that both PCGS and NGC took off when they came into being in the 1980's.

There were several TPGS by 1986 when PCGS started.  ANA, INS, and NCI were the major's probably in that order of volume. ANA and INS were in little "Ivory Towers."  The graders were not dealers and both services were very strict.  I like to think of us as the sheep dogs that kept the "wolves" away from the "sheep."  Well, there was a lot of money being made authenticating and grading coins so it didn't take long for the "wolves" to join in.  At the time, the ANA had a great group of authenticators and graders.  Possibly the best ever assembled.  PCGS hired away Rick Montgomery and they were off to the races.  Immediately, they had the largest group of dealer customers who received kick-backs.  The dealers loved the "Market Grading" being done by former and active dealers working there.   It was less strict then but nothing like the way it has evolved into.  PCGS sucked a majority of the business up in the market.  Their slab was the "nail in the coffin."   

 

[1917]

On 10/17/2020 at 1:47 PM, VKurtB said:

Let me try to stay out of the worst of the fray by sticking to what I know for certain. The current President, Steve Ellsworth of Butternut Coins, is a very strong Type A personality whose ideas are highly controversial. Some members, including many of the most active members, frankly hate his guts. He has done many highly controversial things, and the Board has shot him down on many more. In all my years as an active member, I've never seen any President on the losing side of so many 7-2 or 8-1 votes.

The ANA does have a MASSIVE endowment, but Steve and some others don't want it used for operations, ever. They want a balanced current year budget every year, allowing the endowment to grow ad infinitum. Educational programs have suffered, and that's supposed to be the ANA's mission, not a coin dealer marketing association. That's about as far as I want to go for now. I am planning to run for the Board of Governors.

If you don't support that nonsense of presidents staying on, and other Ellsworth nuttiness (pardon the pun) I'll vote for you

[1917]

kinda wish there wasn't just a dual system of tpg's today (realisticly, pcgs and ngc are the top dogs in the market), because it'd be nice to have more than two options (or in my case, one, because I'm too much of a cheapskate to bother paying for pcgs when I get ngc membership free)

[GoldFinger1969]

To be clear....PCGS and NGC were the first to slab ?  Or one of those older outfits mentioned above beat them both to it ?

[Insider]

40 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

To be clear....PCGS and NGC were the first to slab ?  Or one of those older outfits mentioned above beat them both to it ?

No!  I believe Accugrade was the first.   I believe Robert Paul also had a slab that he franchised out.  In the early 80's, when INS was approached to slab our product I was one against it.  "Collectors want to hold their coins!"  Big mistake on my part.  The Director also did not like the idea of the grade combined with the coin in the holder for all time..

I'm still back on page #4.

Edited October 26, 2020 by Insider

[VKurtB]

On 10/23/2020 at 9:28 AM, physics-fan3.14 said:

The irony is, focussing so much resources on the YNs probably have the least benefit to the hobby as a whole. Sure, you might grab a few every once in a while who go on to become collectors (and stay collectors throughout their life - like myself), and you might get some who come back to the hobby later - but I'll bet the vast majority of YNs take their coins, take their book, take their boy scout merit badge and shove it in a box and forget about it. 

I'd wager a far better use of resources would be to develop, teach, engage active adult collectors. 

Now, this may sound harsh or mean because our hobby has "YNs are the future!" so deeply embedded into our philosophy that questioning the traditional wisdom may seem like heresy. Sure, YNs may be the future - 30 or 40 years from now. I just think a hobby organization like this might get more benefit from focusing on the active hobby. 

I gave a Money Talk at the ANA show in 2015 (? - the last of the three consecutive Rosemont ones) in which my topic was "Nurturing the Intermediate Collector". That's where I believe our best use of resources lies, turning State Quarter collectors into "full blown" collectors.

[VKurtB]

2 hours ago, 1917 said:

If you don't support that nonsense of presidents staying on, and other Ellsworth nuttiness (pardon the pun) I'll vote for you

I support NO changes in the method of electing the board of Governors, full stop. I'm not philosophically against making the Immediate Past President a voting member, IF we could find a way to get back to an odd number of voting members. 10 is too risky for ties. Probably better not to screw with it at all.

[VKurtB]

On 10/24/2020 at 12:51 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

Saddest thread I have ever had the misfortune of reading.  I had always wondered why The ANA was not the premier TPGS in the nation.  VKurtB dropped a few jewels of wisdom over the past few months but this post was the final nail in the coffin.  If VKurtB wants to join the Board of Governors, as presently constituted with one primary Type A calling the shots, I hope he realizes only a top-to-bottom reorganization and a comprehensive audit from an accredited company will be mandatory to put the association back on track.

If  I am lucky enough to chosen to serve, Colonel Steve's term will be kaput.

[Conder101]

On 10/26/2020 at 9:38 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

To be clear....PCGS and NGC were the first to slab ?  Or one of those older outfits mentioned above beat them both to it ?

In the US, ACCUGRADE was the first company to use slabs in 1984, but SAGSE in South Africa preceded them by nearly a decade starting in 1975.  But few people ever saw SAGSE slabs because the only thing they slabbed and graded were Proof Krugerrands, with grading on a 105 point scale.

[RWB]

Comments above and in other message threads over time, suggest that maybe Skip and some others should write a definitive origin and early operation book about TPGs. Not one of the puffed up tomes, but the truth. Hoskins is dead. How many other originators are still around to tell the story first-hand?

Seneca Mill Press LLC will consider publishing it.

Edited October 29, 2020 by RWB

[Zebo]

7 minutes ago, RWB said:

Comments above and in other message threads over time, suggest that maybe Skip and some others should write a definitive origin and early operation book about TPGs. Not one of the puffed up tomes, but the truth. Hoskins is dead. How many other originators are still around to tell the story first-hand?

Seneca Mill Press LLC will consider publishing it.

Good idea - I'd like to read it.

[World Colonial]

3 hours ago, Conder101 said:

In the US, ACCUGRADE was the first company to use slabs in 1984, but SAGSE in South Africa preceded them by nearly a decade starting in 1975.  But few people ever saw SAGSE slabs because the only thing they slabbed and graded were Proof Krugerrands, with grading on a 105 point scale.

I bet almost no collector in South Africa knows this.  I did not, until now.

[Conder101]

1 hour ago, Zebo said:

Good idea - I'd like to read it

So would I.  I know there are flaws in the chronology I published in my book, and I didn't have the chance to be behind the scenes as it was going on, I observed it from the outside.  I'm sure there would be things I could learn as well.

[Insider]

3 hours ago, Zebo said:

Good idea - I'd like to read it.

 

3 hours ago, RWB said:

Comments above and in other message threads over time, suggest that maybe Skip and some others should write a definitive origin and early operation book about TPGs. Not one of the puffed up tomes, but the truth. Hoskins is dead. How many other originators are still around to tell the story first-hand?

Seneca Mill Press LLC will consider publishing it.

If I were to write the entire story, I should need to stay off the interned for over a month - O' Darn.   Anyway, I've been publishing/posting little snips over the decades.  I can only speak for ANA from '72 - when they left DC and then INSAB that Hoskins and a group of dealers started as the Authentication Service (later the first TPGS) for the International Numismatic Association.  We were a big thorn in the ANA's butt.  ANA leaders even tried to ruin my reputation.  They believed I broke into the authentication services' offices right before they left town.  It ended OK.  After a decade or so, I was allowed to come back and teach at the Summer Seminar for a few years.         

[RWB]

5 hours ago, Insider said:

 

If I were to write the entire story, I should need to stay off the interned for over a month - O' Darn.   Anyway, I've been publishing/posting little snips over the decades.  I can only speak for ANA from '72 - when they left DC and then INSAB that Hoskins and a group of dealers started as the Authentication Service (later the first TPGS) for the International Numismatic Association.  We were a big thorn in the ANA's butt.  ANA leaders even tried to ruin my reputation.  They believed I broke into the authentication services' offices right before they left town.  It ended OK.  After a decade or so, I was allowed to come back and teach at the Summer Seminar for a few years.         

Hoskins bought a Russian "Kiev" 6x6cm camera (imitation of a Hasselblad) to take photos with. I did a couple of training seminars for him. The film was processed and contact printed onto the certificates by District Photo in Beltsville, Md.

[Insider]

4 minutes ago, RWB said:

Hoskins bought a Russian "Kiev" 6x6cm camera (imitation of a Hasselblad) to take photos with. I did a couple of training seminars for him. The film was processed and contact printed onto the certificates by District Photo in Beltsville, Md.

When I joined the company we used a 6X6 Rolliflex mounted on a box. 

[RWB]

17 minutes ago, Insider said:

When I joined the company we used a 6X6 Rolliflex mounted on a box. 

I think he bought the Russain camera because it was an SLR. The Rolliflex is a TLR and thus very difficult to correctly align and focus on very close objects.

[MarkFeld]

On 10/26/2020 at 10:50 AM, VKurtB said:

I gave a Money Talk at the ANA show in 2015 (? - the last of the three consecutive Rosemont ones) in which my topic was "Nurturing the Intermediate Collector". That's where I believe our best use of resources lies, turning State Quarter collectors into "full blown" collectors.

I certainly don’t think of “State Quarter collectors” as “Intermediate Collectors”. 

[GoldFinger1969]

9 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

I certainly don’t think of “State Quarter collectors” as “Intermediate Collectors”. 

I think his theme was that you want to get the collectors as kids or 1-time collectors to take a greater interest and get into Morgans, Saints, or other coins that entails bigger time or dollar commitments.

Think of the folks whose only NFL football interest is watching the Super Bowl.  How do you get those people to watch football more regularly....play fantasy football....go to a football game...watch every Sunday ? 

Same thing with coin collectors....just deepen and increase their involvement.

Edited October 30, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[MarkFeld]

20 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

I think his theme was that you want to get the collectors as kids or 1-time collectors to take a greater interest and get into Morgans, Saints, or other coins that entails bigger time or dollar commitments.

Think of the folks whose only NFL football interest is watching the Super Bowl.  How do you get those people to watch football more regularly....play fantasy football....go to a football game...watch every Sunday ? 

Same thing with coin collectors....just deepen and increase their involvement.

I understand that. “Intermediate Collectors” and “State Quarter Collectors” in the same sentence doesn’t compute for me, however.

[GoldFinger1969]

1 hour ago, MarkFeld said:

I understand that. “Intermediate Collectors” and “State Quarter Collectors” in the same sentence doesn’t compute for me, however.

Intermediate Grade School Collectors ?  

[Conder101]

10 hours ago, RWB said:

Hoskins bought a Russian "Kiev" 6x6cm camera (imitation of a Hasselblad) to take photos with. I did a couple of training seminars for him. The film was processed and contact printed onto the certificates by District Photo in Beltsville, Md.

Are you talking about when he was with ANACS or INSAB?  I would assume ANACS as the first INSAB certificates just used what appear to be Polaroid SX70 prints.

I would also be interested in what the very early ANACS certificates looked like.  The earliest ones I have ever seen dated from 1975 and I am curious to know if the earlier ones were any different.  With three years worth of production you would think there should be some very early certificates still in existance.

[RWB]

26 minutes ago, Conder101 said:

Are you talking about when he was with ANACS or INSAB?  I would assume ANACS as the first INSAB certificates just used what appear to be Polaroid SX70 prints.

I would also be interested in what the very early ANACS certificates looked like.  The earliest ones I have ever seen dated from 1975 and I am curious to know if the earlier ones were any different.  With three years worth of production you would think there should be some very early certificates still in existence.

INSAB in Washington, DC

[VKurtB]

13 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

I understand that. “Intermediate Collectors” and “State Quarter Collectors” in the same sentence doesn’t compute for me, however.

Every collector needs a “gateway drug”. For my generation, it was cents in blue Whitman’s. For the newer ones, it’s State Quarters.

[Zebo]

10 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Every collector needs a “gateway drug”. For my generation, it was cents in blue Whitman’s. For the newer ones, it’s State Quarters.

Inflation 

[gmarguli]

15 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

I understand that. “Intermediate Collectors” and “State Quarter Collectors” in the same sentence doesn’t compute for me, however.

Even if they collect all three varieties (business strike, proof, & satin finish)?