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What's Happening at the ANA?
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162 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Zebo,

Because you seem to be an advanced world collector, this next bit may not apply to you, but the NYINC can pretty quickly become intimidating to many collectors. The majority of the dealers are from other countries, and the world and ancient material on offer there will “shiver your timbers”. I’ve now been to 5 NYINC’s and I still am not used to the highbrow nature of it. It is a humbling experience. I watched guys counting out $100’s like they were singles buying medieval gold pieces. The seminars are beyond compare. You need to go. The current site is IMO the best to date. I’ve been to the World Trade Center one, and the Waldorf Astoria one, but this is the best. Do not expect to see everything in slabs. Many world dealers don’t roll that way. Lots of big number coins lying in velour Abafil trays. 

Seems like you are saying that the NYINC dealers are like mini-Stacks, Heritages, and other high-end sellers, right ?

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Looking forward to attending and meeting some of the people I've only dealt with on-line or telephone. The seminars would be a must.

 

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58 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Seems like you are saying that the NYINC dealers are like mini-Stacks, Heritages, and other high-end sellers, right ?

More like dozens of CNG’s - Classical Numismatic Group.

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Spiders are happening at ANA. But -- will they make enough nice webs by Halloween? If so, it could be a real Haunted Museum and raise $$$ for that sadly misplaced organization.

Edited by RWB
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5 minutes ago, RWB said:

Spiders are happening at ANA. But -- will they make enough nice webs by Halloween? If so, it could be a real Haunted Museum and raise $$$ for that sadly misplaced organization.

The staff is pretty much all homebound now. Colorado Springs is a tough kinda place, lockdown-wise. 

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15 hours ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Seems like you are saying that the NYINC dealers are like mini-Stacks, Heritages, and other high-end sellers, right ?

While there are many high end dealers there, there are also a lot of dealers that have lower priced material. I've gone to the show maybe 5 times (all when held at the Waldorf) and it was held in 3 different rooms. Rooms 2 & 3 were filled with lower end dealers. Several dealers brought binders or boxes with coins in 2x2s and most were priced fairly cheaply. I've bought lots of nice stuff for under $20. Also bought lots of nice stuff for thousands of dollars there. There is something for everyone. 

You will find very few slabs there. This is a nice thing if you are good at grading. You can pick up some gem stuff cheap. 

 

 

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NYINC is another show I would like to go to, along with the replacement for the CICF

I used to go to NY a lot for work, but never early January.  Not worth the trip at my expense given my annual collecting budget, in the vicinity of $5,000 depending upon what I can find.  I can use hotel points but still don't want to spend what it costs to go given what I will likely find for my core collection.

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1 hour ago, gmarguli said:

You will find very few slabs there. This is a nice thing if you are good at grading. You can pick up some gem stuff cheap. 

Interesting....have you seen the % of slabbed stuff increase over time ?  We know Europeans aren't into TPGs as much as we are.

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1 hour ago, World Colonial said:

NYINC is another show I would like to go to, along with the replacement for the CICF

I used to go to NY a lot for work, but never early January.  Not worth the trip at my expense given my annual collecting budget, in the vicinity of $5,000 depending upon what I can find.  I can use hotel points but still don't want to spend what it costs to go given what I will likely find for my core collection.

If you are staying multiple days, can always stay in the outer boroughs or suburbs and save $$$.xD

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47 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

If you are staying multiple days, can always stay in the outer boroughs or suburbs and save $$$.xD

True, but I have over 1MM Marriott points, so hotel is not an issue and would definitely choose to stay near venue.  I'm not interested in commuting any further with coins on me.  If I ever go, it would almost certainly be for one day or at most two nights.  I may be totally wrong but I don't believe even this show has much for my core collection. 

The most likely reason I would extend a trip to a second day is for a visit to the ANS.  For an administrative fee ($50 I believe), the collection is available for inspection.  I have exchanged messages with one of the ANS staff members ATS on this option.  I intended to do this last December but could never get away from work.  I also intended to go earlier this year but my work trip was canceled due to COVID.

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1 hour ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Interesting....have you seen the % of slabbed stuff increase over time ?  We know Europeans aren't into TPGs as much as we are.

It's been a few years since I've been there (the cost of the trip was becoming out of line), but the entire time there were very few slabs. There were a couple dealers with lots of slabs in their cases, but those were expensive coins. Nothing like you'd see at a US show where there were $30 coins in slabs. 

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4 hours ago, gmarguli said:

It's been a few years since I've been there (the cost of the trip was becoming out of line), but the entire time there were very few slabs. There were a couple dealers with lots of slabs in their cases, but those were expensive coins. Nothing like you'd see at a US show where there were $30 coins in slabs. 

There's a certain kind of pragmatism in most European countries. It's the kind that says: "If you are a beginning skier and go on a double-diamond course and get hurt, it's you fault. Don't try to sue the course owner."

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15 hours ago, RWB said:

There's a certain kind of pragmatism in most European countries. It's the kind that says: "If you are a beginning skier and go on a double-diamond course and get hurt, it's you fault. Don't try to sue the course owner."

I apologize.  When I read something written by someone with a genius IQ, I have no clue what they wrote. (shrug) 

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55 minutes ago, Insider said:

I apologize.  When I read something written by someone with a genius IQ, I have no clue what they wrote. (shrug) 

? None at this address. I'll check the stable. One of the talking mules said he was a "stable genius" so I'll ask the horse and goats

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On 10/19/2020 at 12:50 PM, World Colonial said:

NYINC is another show I would like to go to, along with the replacement for the CICF

I used to go to NY a lot for work, but never early January.  Not worth the trip at my expense given my annual collecting budget, in the vicinity of $5,000 depending upon what I can find.  I can use hotel points but still don't want to spend what it costs to go given what I will likely find for my core collection.

Early January is typically the cheapest time for New York hotels. Check out the aggregators like Priceline and others.

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Broken News!

Just checked the live 24/7 ANA Cam direct from Colorado Springs. Shows a baby giant panda emerging from an egg....Wow! ANA museum is really something. No people visible.

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5 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Early January is typically the cheapest time for New York hotels. Check out the aggregators like Priceline and others.

I have plenty of hotel points.  It's the other expenses and using my vacation days which is why I have never gone.

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9 minutes ago, World Colonial said:

I have plenty of hotel points.  It's the other expenses and using my vacation days which is why I have never gone.

Ahh yes, feeding oneself, and depending where you're coming from, getting there. Because of being in Harrisburg or Lancaster, Amtrak was always the obvious answer there. And food is "an attitude". My attitude was cheaper.

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1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

Ahh yes, feeding oneself, and depending where you're coming from, getting there. Because of being in Harrisburg or Lancaster, Amtrak was always the obvious answer there. And food is "an attitude". My attitude was cheaper.

I'm definitely an economizer, with most things.  But I am even stingier with my vacation time.  During my working career, I have almost exclusively used it to visit family because if I had not, I wouldn't see them much.  Until 2011, it was mostly to visit family and friends in Atlanta before I moved back.  After 2011 until COVID, it was to visit my family outside the US.  Taking the day off to go to opening day at the February ANA is as much as I will likely ever do.

 

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On 10/19/2020 at 12:50 PM, World Colonial said:

NYINC is another show I would like to go to, along with the replacement for the CICF

I was under the impression the replacement for CICF lasted about two years and died.  Am I wrong?  Is it still going on?

 

On 10/17/2020 at 6:27 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What talk ?  I've seen or read nothing.  Distributed (given away) or SOLD ?

Back before the government actually won the case there was talk that if they did they might loan them to various museums around the country.  If they did the ANA museum would be an obvious possibility for one.

 

The reason Steve has been harping so much about income and raising revenue is probably because the ANA  has frequently been on financially shaky footing.  Yes education is great, but in order to provide it long term the organization needs to be fiscally secure.  Dipping into the endowment for day to day operations is NOT something to be encouraged because there will always be people with plans to add on new things/programs etc and their answer on how to fund them will often become "well we'll just use the endowment".  Yes in extreme circumstances using the endowment for day to day operations may have to happen, but it should be STRONGLY discouraged lest it become a habit.

On 10/19/2020 at 8:26 PM, RWB said:

There's a certain kind of pragmatism in most European countries. It's the kind that says: "If you are a beginning skier and go on a double-diamond course and get hurt, it's you fault. Don't try to sue the course owner."

You didn't understand that Kurt?  Made perfect sense to me.

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51 minutes ago, Conder101 said:

I was under the impression the replacement for CICF lasted about two years and died.  Am I wrong?  Is it still going on?

You may be correct.  If the show is gone, I did not know it.

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37 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Anybody know what the annual budget for the ANA is and what the endowment provides ?  That would clear up some things.

Copied from another thread (edited slightly for readability, not content - I cannot confirm or dispute the OP's findings:

As of the end of 2018. The ANA endowment appears to consist mainly of their collection and stocks/bonds/other investments. They value the collection at $37,865,973. The other investments are $22,811,800.

Total Revenue is $5,058,000. The main parts are Revenue from Conventions is $1,800,000, Annual Seminars $315,000, Membership $954,000, Contribution $590,000

Total Expenses are $5,800,000

 

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3 hours ago, Conder101 said:

I was under the impression the replacement for CICF lasted about two years and died.  Am I wrong?  Is it still going on?

 

Back before the government actually won the case there was talk that if they did they might loan them to various museums around the country.  If they did the ANA museum would be an obvious possibility for one.

 

The reason Steve has been harping so much about income and raising revenue is probably because the ANA  has frequently been on financially shaky footing.  Yes education is great, but in order to provide it long term the organization needs to be fiscally secure.  Dipping into the endowment for day to day operations is NOT something to be encouraged because there will always be people with plans to add on new things/programs etc and their answer on how to fund them will often become "well we'll just use the endowment".  Yes in extreme circumstances using the endowment for day to day operations may have to happen, but it should be STRONGLY discouraged lest it become a habit.

You didn't understand that Kurt?  Made perfect sense to me.

Yep, me too. Europeans, in particular the Swiss [skier reference] , "put their money where their mouths are", when it comes to litigious people. They don't like them, and many businesses do not have lawyers on retainer. People who sue are greatly looked down upon. "Pragmatic"is a good choice of word. If a Swiss person caught you getting a $30 coin slabbed, he'd probably subtly mock you for an hour. If you have a lawyer on retainer, three to four hours.

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19 minutes ago, Zebo said:

As of the end of 2018. The ANA endowment appears to consist mainly of their collection and stocks/bonds/other investments. They value the collection at $37,865,973. The other investments are $22,811,800.

Total Revenue is $5,058,000. The main parts are Revenue from Conventions is $1,800,000, Annual Seminars $315,000, Membership $954,000, Contribution $590,000

Total Expenses are $5,800,000

OK, great job....so it seems they are short $800,000, at least in 2018.

If the collection could be sold, that would really be helpful -- for all we know, the coins or other property is not reflected at true market value.  Regardless, $37 MM would provide about $1.6 MM in annual endowment income which would certainly help.  As coins, this part of their assets can't generate any annual income as best I can tell.

If the Other Investments is the financial assets -- stocks, bonds, other investments -- that should be providing about $1 MM right now.

It's possible that non-financial assets (coins) can NOT be sold if they were bequeathed, I don't know.  You would also think that the ANA should be in a position to get a nice donation either while living or upon death from a member or wealthy coin collector who would like to bequeath a legacy.  But you have to ASK as the ANA and/or coins are not at the top of most people's donation list, even wealthy people with plenty of $$$.

Maybe someone at the ANA should spend a few hours working on this.  xD

 

Edited by GoldFinger1969
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13 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Copied from another thread (edited slightly for readability, not content - I cannot confirm or dispute the OP's findings:

As of the end of 2018. The ANA endowment appears to consist mainly of their collection and stocks/bonds/other investments. They value the collection at $37,865,973. The other investments are $22,811,800.

Total Revenue is $5,058,000. The main parts are Revenue from Conventions is $1,800,000, Annual Seminars $315,000, Membership $954,000, Contribution $590,000

Total Expenses are $5,800,000

 

Thats exactly right from the paper I have from that budget meeting. 2020 has slashed all categories of revenue (old guys die from COVID), seminars are rare as hen's teeth except in targeted states, the convention didn't happen, and all the fixed costs carry on, just like when sales of numismatic products at the US Mint drop.

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7 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

OK, great job....so it seems they are short $800,000, at least in 2018.

If the collection could be sold, that would really be helpful -- for all we know, the coins or other property is not reflected at true market value.  Regardless, $37 MM would provide about $1.6 MM in annual endowment income which would certainly help.  

If the Other Investments is the financial assets -- stocks, bonds, other investments -- that should be providing about $1 MM right now.

It's possible that non-financial assets (coins) can NOT be sold if they were bequeathed, I don't know.  You would also think that the ANA should be in a position to get a nice donation either while living or upon death from a member or wealthy coin collector who would like to bequeath a legacy.  But you have to ASK as the ANA and/or coins are not at the top of most people's donation list, even wealthy people with plenty of $$$.

Maybe someone at the ANA should spend a few hours working on this.

 

Are you a member? If so, you probably got the same "think of us in your will" letter that I got. I first started getting them when my health issues got serious. I felt like my computer was spying on me. "What do they know that I don't?" :insane:

There will be some deaccessions from the collection, though. There have already been some. There is redundant material in there, and not just a little bit.

Philosophical question: If the ANA owns 2 of the 5 1913 Liberty nickels, do you sell one when you are allowed to by the bequeath?

Edited by VKurtB
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45 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

OK, great job....so it seems they are short $800,000, at least in 2018.

If the collection could be sold, that would really be helpful -- for all we know, the coins or other property is not reflected at true market value.  Regardless, $37 MM would provide about $1.6 MM in annual endowment income which would certainly help.  As coins, this part of their assets can't generate any annual income as best I can tell.

If the Other Investments is the financial assets -- stocks, bonds, other investments -- that should be providing about $1 MM right now.

It's possible that non-financial assets (coins) can NOT be sold if they were bequeathed, I don't know.  You would also think that the ANA should be in a position to get a nice donation either while living or upon death from a member or wealthy coin collector who would like to bequeath a legacy.  But you have to ASK as the ANA and/or coins are not at the top of most people's donation list, even wealthy people with plenty of $$$.

Maybe someone at the ANA should spend a few hours working on this.  xD

 

My understanding is that some art might (key word) be loaned to generate revenue but I cannot give you any specific examples.  The MET in NY used to regularly have temporary travelling exhibits with an additional admission but I don't know if they had to pay to "rent" it.  The fee might have been to cover costs, such as insurance.  Regardless, I see no possibility that the ANA's (or any other coin) collection is a candidate to replicate this, even if I am correct.

I have thought about donating my core collection to the ANS if no one in my family wants it and I don't need the money later.  I doubt this will happen though, as I am more interested in buying their duplicates if offered for sale.  ATS I read that this may selectively occur at some point and I suspect it may be due to a cash crunch.

I'd never in a million years leave a cent of other assets to any non-profit, coin related or not.  It would get wasted on administrative overhead or payroll.  I know those who work there need to make a living and plan for the future like we do, I'm just never going to contribute to it.  All my assets are going to immediate family and a handful of others important to me.

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50 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

There will be some deaccessions from the collection, though. There have already been some. There is redundant material in there, and not just a little bit.

Philosophical question: If the ANA owns 2 of the 5 1913 Liberty nickels, do you sell one when you are allowed to by the bequeath?

I see no need for any institutional collection to own duplicates, especially of expensive coins.  I believe it's better for coins to be owned by collectors.  In the past, I consider it virtually certain that many coins existing today that are otherwise seldom available would not be available if it had not been donated.  (I believe this to be true of my primary interest at the ANS.)  I don't see this as much of a consideration now.

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1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

Are you a member? If so, you probably got the same "think of us in your will" letter that I got. I first started getting them when my health issues got serious. I felt like my computer was spying on me. "What do they know that I don't?" :insane:

There will be some deaccessions from the collection, though. There have already been some. There is redundant material in there, and not just a little bit.

Philosophical question: If the ANA owns 2 of the 5 1913 Liberty nickels, do you sell one when you are allowed to by the bequeath?

No, I'm not a member at this time.  Probably will join later on.  A bit TO'd at the ANA for not being more forceful for the Langbord's in the 1933 Saints dispute.  They valued their $$$ relationship with the U.S. Mint more, IMO.

Yes, I would sell one of the 1913 Liberty Nickels.  In fact, I would sell both of them -- and maybe have a stipulation that any future sales MUST take place through the ANA's annual convention.  This way, you have a definite attraction and a show-stopper.  Not sure how you would write such a policy into the sales agreement, but I think it could be done.

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