Lighting techniques for coin photography - updated 1 1

[RWB]

6 hours ago, Insider said:

Thanks, I'll bet this is true for digital cameras also.   

It is not a function of the detector. Only the two things mentioned. (The tilt and skew capabilities of a standard view camera simply exploit these, they are not changed. The old 35mm tilt lenses offered only a small perspective correction. Rarely used and certainly not for the highest quality work.

Edited October 19, 2020 by RWB

[Insider]

At the moment, I tend to believe all of you.  Nevertheless, I'll see for myself this week. 

[brg5658]

1 hour ago, Insider said:

 

Are you from Texas?  I see a "Hook-em Horns" emoji.

What you could do for us that would save time (I trust you) until I do it would be to image a full coin with a digital camera that is tilted to the light. 

My camera is on a copy stand and calibrated to point the sensor perfectly parallel to my shooting surface.  I'm not going to muck that up for your tangential (and frankly unimportant to me) experiment.

I don't understand why you're beating this dead horse.  You have half a dozen very competent and well versed people who take full coin photographs telling you that you're wrong - and Mark Goodman (who literally wrote the book on numismatic photography) also agrees with us.  If you want to photograph a full coin your camera and coin should be in alignment so that the sensor and the coin are perfectly parallel.  Period.

[Insider]

20 minutes ago, brg5658 said:

My camera is on a copy stand and calibrated to point the sensor perfectly parallel to my shooting surface.  I'm not going to muck that up for your tangential (and frankly unimportant to me) experiment.

I don't understand why you're beating this dead horse.  You have half a dozen very competent and well versed people who take full coin photographs telling you that you're wrong - and Mark Goodman (who literally wrote the book on numismatic photography) also agrees with us.  If you want to photograph a full coin your camera and coin should be in alignment so that the sensor and the coin are perfectly parallel.  Period.

I understand fully.  I'll do the experiment because TILTING A COIN under a camera on a fixed stand is "child's play."  I'm going to use my fingers.

This is why I like to tip a coin... It helps me take horrible micrographs of characteristics I wish to show to others.

[Insider]

PS  If things go my way (depth of field on a full coin),I'm going to post a great quiz using a digital camera that I'll call TIPPED OR NOT . 

Otherwise, I'll thank all of you for  teaching me about digital photography and apologize for being so stubborn.  .  

[RWB]

Sorry, but tilting a coin is and excuse for not being in control of lighting.

As for the two tilted photos above, they are badly compromised by digital artifacts that IF anything is actually in focus, it can't be determined. (To see the artifacts, all one has to do is click the photos, then click the " + " magnifier. If you want more , save the image and enlarge it to see all the happy JPG compression stuff stacked like legos on a sunny day.)

There are a lot of excellent photography books - especially older ones based on film, where mere competence results in professional failure.

Edited October 20, 2020 by RWB

[Insider]

15 hours ago, RWB said:

Sorry, but tilting a coin is and excuse for not being in control of lighting.

As for the two tilted photos above, they are badly compromised by digital artifacts that IF anything is actually in focus, it can't be determined. (To see the artifacts, all one has to do is click the photos, then click the " + " magnifier. If you want more , save the image and enlarge it to see all the happy JPG compression stuff stacked like legos on a sunny day.)

There are a lot of excellent photography books - especially older ones based on film, where mere competence results in professional failure.

LOL.  I can move the light/lights or move the coin.  Furthermore, I posted the images in gray so no one could complain BUT I should have known better.  

[RWB]

Gray scale is fine. The artifacts prevent the image from showing the full resolution of the CCD and lens - that was my complaint. In other words, by using poor digital compression, you've lost much of the detail. (Note that this did not happen with film.)

[VKurtB]

"Tilting" is important for examining a coin, critical even, but the needs of examination and photography are different, until and unless we get a standard moving picture format, something several people are working on. As long as we are getting a look at the entire coin in a photo, tilting is a fool's errand.

[brg5658]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

Gray scale is fine. The artifacts prevent the image from showing the full resolution of the CCD and lens - that was my complaint. In other words, by using poor digital compression, you've lost much of the detail. (Note that this did not happen with film.)

@Insider images (or micrographs as he calls them) look like cell phone images to me.  I don't know what he's using for these, but they are certainly not comparable to a full coin image taken by someone who has all of the settings properly adjusted. 

My images are shot in Canon Raw format with all "auto" processing turned off.  That's a whole other kettle of fish if we start talking about camera settings.  For coins, if you fill the sensor with the coin image - digital compression is a non-issue.  A full sensor image would need to be scaled down by 5 or 6 fold to post on a website, and that downsizing tends to smooth over digital relics (if you're using a proper resize algorithm).  Even if cropped at the size it comes out of the camera, magnification is more than would ever be needed to see whatever it is you're interested in.

Film indeed did not "suffer" from compression issues, but no matter how you photograph a coin, to post it on a digital venue like a website you will have to get the image into a digital format one way or another - either taking the photo in digital format initially, or scanning in a print or negative.  Digital cameras are not a hindrance to coin photography if you know what you're doing.

 

[RWB]

My little images do not come from the Nikon "raw." Mine are already dressed up. Naked pixels are not a pretty sight.

[VKurtB]

3 hours ago, RWB said:

My little images do not come from the Nikon "raw." Mine are already dressed up. Naked pixels are not a pretty sight.

So you’re ignoring that the emperor has no clothes?

[Insider]

As of now, I'm still in the "dog house for the ignorant" as it is already Wed. and I have not been able to fool with the companies cameras.  I'm afraid I will remain in this position until I produce some full coin images.  Don't give up on me, I wish to be proven correct or not.  I will post something as soon as I can  but for now my mouth is full of crow (CHOKE, CHOKE, GURGLE) until I produce some images,  

[Insider]

I get the camera Friday after work.  Just now, I've taken 3 minutes to have them do a test for me.  I'm grinning from ear to ear as I'm going to post a quiz next week for the digital photography experts here.  I'm calling it "Tipped or Not Tipped" 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Insider

[RWB]

Emphasizing some detail by altering the lighting or tilting a coin is a legitimate approach. But it also distorts geometry. Depth of field is as described previously.

 

[VKurtB]

1 hour ago, Insider said:

I'm calling it "Tipped or Not Tipped" 

Shaken, not stirred. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by VKurtB

[Insider]

4 hours ago, RWB said:

Emphasizing some detail by altering the lighting or tilting a coin is a legitimate approach. But it also distorts geometry. Depth of field is as described previously.

 

I hope you decide to take my depth of field test!  I really hope one other member does too.  Additionally, I'd appreciate any critical comments on my (actually the digital camera's) full coin images from the experts.      

[Insider]

Images from the camera are now in our photo room computer!   They will be emailed to me next week - promised by Wednesday at the latest.   Then, I will post my first experiment - an ugly toned Morgan imaged flat and tilted 1/4 inch.  You will be able to tell which is which because you'll see the piece of metal I used to tip the coin. Both images are in focus so depth of field was no problem.  When I tipped the coin 1/2 inch, it was still in complete focus; however the reflection of light into the camera brightened the coin too much and it did not look as good.  Incidentally, when I asked  the woman who takes our images to teach me how to use our setup, she knew all about tipping a coin in the light because she often does it!      Therefore, I have proved to my 100% satisfaction that a coin does not need to be FLAT to take a sharply focused image.  [Self Edit ]   Anyway,  I hope some of you might agree.

I'll take absolutely NO CREDIT AT ALL for the images. Our imaging equipment did it all.  I put the coin in the light box, centered it with the mouse, and punched a few keys.  Once I was shown how the computer worked, It took less than fifteen minutes to take 14 images.  No images were modified in any way from the single shot I took of each coin.  

After I post the Morgan, I'd like to know what the experts think and which image is better, tipped or flat.  Then my quiz ("TIPPED  OR FLAT") will follow.  I did not play with the lighting at all.  All coins were taken in the same orientation.  Four slabbed $10 Liberties graded MS-63 by one of the top two services are imaged.  Dates are 1893, 1894, 1900, 1901.  You will be shown the four coins and asked to tell if the slab was flat under the lens or tipped 1/4 inch.  There will be 12 images in all, four at a time to eliminate any LUCKY GUESSES!    

 

[brg5658]

1 hour ago, Insider said:

Images from the camera are now in our photo room computer!   They will be emailed to me next week - promised by Wednesday at the latest.   Then, I will post my first experiment - an ugly toned Morgan imaged flat and tilted 1/4 inch.  You will be able to tell which is which because you'll see the piece of metal I used to tip the coin. Both images are in focus so depth of field was no problem.  When I tipped the coin 1/2 inch, it was still in complete focus; however the reflection of light into the camera brightened the coin too much and it did not look as good.  Incidentally, when I asked  the woman who takes our images to teach me how to use our setup, she knew all about tipping a coin in the light because she often does it!      Therefore, I have proved to my 100% satisfaction that a coin does not need to be FLAT to take a sharply focused image.  [Self Edit ]   Anyway,  I hope some of you might agree.

I'll take absolutely NO CREDIT AT ALL for the images. Our imaging equipment did it all.  I put the coin in the light box, centered it with the mouse, and punched a few keys.  Once I was shown how the computer worked, It took less than fifteen minutes to take 14 images.  No images were modified in any way from the single shot I took of each coin.  

After I post the Morgan, I'd like to know what the experts think and which image is better, tipped or flat.  Then my quiz ("TIPPED  OR FLAT") will follow.  I did not play with the lighting at all.  All coins were taken in the same orientation.  Four slabbed $10 Liberties graded MS-63 by one of the top two services are imaged.  Dates are 1893, 1894, 1900, 1901.  You will be shown the four coins and asked to tell if the slab was flat under the lens or tipped 1/4 inch.  There will be 12 images in all, four at a time to eliminate any LUCKY GUESSES!    

 

[RWB]

The depth of field will remain the same if aperture and magnification remain the same. Please check some good photography books, or maybe study this web site for help. The explanations are simple and there are good illustrations. Everything there applies equally to coins, although magnification plays a greater role than in normal snapshot conditions.

https://digital-photography-school.com/understanding-depth-field-beginners/

 

[Insider]

32 minutes ago, brg5658 said:

I'll bet when you wake up and flunk my quiz MISERABLY you don't have the "class" to admit that ANYONE with the "right" setup can tip a coin under a digital camera (at least 1/2 inch where I stopped) and keep the entire coin in focus!   

You see, I don't believe anything completely  (you photography "Ex-Perts"  started to convince me) until I find out for myself by experiment or researching the subject. 

[Insider]

21 minutes ago, RWB said:

The depth of field will remain the same if aperture and magnification remain the same. Please check some good photography books, or maybe study this web site for help. The explanations are simple and there are good illustrations. Everything there applies equally to coins, although magnification plays a greater role than in normal snapshot conditions.

https://digital-photography-school.com/understanding-depth-field-beginners/

 

Roger,

I was told by a self-proclaimed "expert" that coins were only to be photographed FLAT!   I was referred to published sources to prove it.  His photos looked great - something about digital cameras and a lack of depth of field was mentioned.  This sounded NUTS but what do I know?  I was asked to image a coin. 

I imaged five coins both flat and tipped.  The images came out great and in sharp focus.  That proved to me that our Cannon digital camera + lens has plenty of depth of field.  It is mounted in an Ortery light box and all I can see is the ET73 lens hood.   

I hope you and others either take my quiz or just admit that coins can be imaged beautifully -  even when tipped by a digitally ignorant old fart after a ten minute lesson.  The camera does everything. 

    

Edited October 24, 2020 by Insider

[brg5658]

4 minutes ago, Insider said:

I'll bet when you wake up and flunk my quiz MISERABLY you don't have the "class" to admit that ANYONE with the "right" setup can tip a coin under a digital camera (at least 1/2 inch where I stopped) and keep the entire coin in focus!   

You see, I don't believe anything completely  (you photography "Ex-Perts"  started to convince me) until I find out for myself by experiment or researching the subject. 

There is no way you are filling the entire digital sensor with a Morgan dollar tilted a half inch and keeping the whole coin in focus.  You’re either messing with the aperture and massively degrading the quality of the image, or you are shooting the Morgan Dollar from far away and most of the picture frame is not the coin (but dead space).  If you’re far away, you may be able to keep the full coin in focus, but your magnification is incredibly small (and you are not taking macro photos) and the quality of your images will be awful. 

“Gosh, I can take a picture of a Morgan dollar tilted an inch and fully in focus if I’m 15 feet away.”  

We want to see the full unedited views when you post your supposed “proof” against what every professional coin photographer knows. 

As others and I have all stated here, your DOF is dictated by magnification and aperture.  You’re either tweaking one or both of those factors to cheat yourself into believing you’re smart/right.  Whatever makes you happy Skip. 

An example:  the APS-C (a pretty common size) sensor is 14.8mm high.  To fill the sensor with an 38.1mm diameter Morgan Dollar, requires magnification of 0.39.  At that magnification, with a 100mm macro lens, your camera sensor would be approximately 20 inches above the coin.  For a clear photo, you want an effective aperture no more than f/11 or so, which means your actual aperture should be stopped down no more than to f/8.  I usually shoot at an effective aperture closer to f/8, so would use an actual lens aperture of f/5.6 in this case.  Regardless of which setting you use, the depth of field is significantly less than 0.25 inches.  For effective f/11 the DOF is 0.12 inches and for f/8 is 0.095 inches.  Thus, tipping a Morgan dollar so that it is 1/4 inch high on one end will be very out of focus on at least half of the coin.  Now, if you stopped down your aperture to f/18 (effective f/24.6) then you could get a DOF of 0.27 inches, but the quality of your photo sharpness would be severely degraded. 

 

[brg5658]

29 minutes ago, Insider said:

Roger,

I was told by a self-proclaimed "expert" that coins were only to be photographed FLAT!   I was referred to published sources to prove it.  His photos looked great - something about digital cameras and a lack of depth of field was mentioned.  This sounded NUTS but what do I know?  I was asked to image a coin. 

I imaged five coins both flat and tipped.  The images came out great and in sharp focus.  That proved to me that our Cannon digital camera + lens has plenty of depth of field.  It is mounted in an Ortery light box and all I can see is the ET73 lens hood.   

I hope you and others either take my quiz or just admit that coins can be imaged beautifully -  even when tipped by a digitally ignorant old fart after a ten minute lesson.  The camera does everything. 

    

And all of this to prove that you can do something poorly.  This thread was about lighting and improving photos. You chime in with your supposed knowledge about tipping coins into light 

The point of this thread was to offer advice about how best to do something. But in his non-stop know-it-all stubborn style, here comes Skip to chime in about something he knows nothing about.  He doesn’t understand magnification nor aperture, and has figured out how to cheat his way to being “right” - eureka, alert the press.  I guarantee you I can take better pictures of whatever coins you have imaged by using proper methods - and at higher final resolution. 

@Insider, I hope all of your future tangential and self-serving posts will be in your own thread so as to stop derailing this thread from its original intent. 

[RWB]

The thread is, as noted by the OP, about improving photos. Could others (including me) please stick to that?

[Zebo]

The ANA just held a elearning seminar (2 hour vs 30 hour class). It goes over some of the issues being discussed in this thread and has some good recommendations. It should be posted on their web-site in a week or so. 

[Insider]

13 hours ago, brg5658 said:

There is no way you are filling the entire digital sensor with a Morgan dollar tilted a half inch and keeping the whole coin in focus.  You’re either messing with the aperture and massively degrading the quality of the image, or you are shooting the Morgan Dollar from far away and most of the picture frame is not the coin (but dead space).  If you’re far away, you may be able to keep the full coin in focus, but your magnification is incredibly small (and you are not taking macro photos) and the quality of your images will be awful. 

“Gosh, I can take a picture of a Morgan dollar tilted an inch and fully in focus if I’m 15 feet away.”  

We want to see the full unedited views when you post your supposed “proof” against what every professional coin photographer knows. 

As others and I have all stated here, your DOF is dictated by magnification and aperture.  You’re either tweaking one or both of those factors to cheat yourself into believing you’re smart/right.  Whatever makes you happy Skip. 

An example:  the APS-C (a pretty common size) sensor is 14.8mm high.  To fill the sensor with an 38.1mm diameter Morgan Dollar, requires magnification of 0.39.  At that magnification, with a 100mm macro lens, your camera sensor would be approximately 20 inches above the coin.  For a clear photo, you want an effective aperture no more than f/11 or so, which means your actual aperture should be stopped down no more than to f/8.  I usually shoot at an effective aperture closer to f/8, so would use an actual lens aperture of f/5.6 in this case.  Regardless of which setting you use, the depth of field is significantly less than 0.25 inches.  For effective f/11 the DOF is 0.12 inches and for f/8 is 0.095 inches.  Thus, tipping a Morgan dollar so that it is 1/4 inch high on one end will be very out of focus on at least half of the coin.  Now, if you stopped down your aperture to f/18 (effective f/24.6) then you could get a DOF of 0.27 inches, but the quality of your photo sharpness would be severely degraded. 

 

 

Don't try to blow smoke/weasel out with this:  “Gosh, I can take a picture of a Morgan dollar tilted an inch and fully in focus if I’m 15 feet away.”  

INITALLY, you re-posted a helpful description of how to photo a coin.  In your method, the coin was to be kept flat. I'm totally IGNORANT of digital Photography.  I read your post and SUGGESTED in a very nice way that you might wish to try tipping the coin to take an image.  Apparently, you felt your method challenged (??) in some way and THIS NONSENSE began.  You asked me to provide an image of a full coin.  While doing this I decide to PROVE that good images can be made when a coin is either flat or tipped (MY SIMPLE, HELPFUL SUGGESTION).  I'm going to post images so members can judge the results of MY INITIAL SUGGESTION to you - the photography "Ex-Pert."

Unfortunately, all the "fluff & smoke" you posted has proved to me AGAIN, and AGAIN that your comprehension of simple English is lacking. 

I'll explain what I did AGAIN (I cannot make it simpler) because EVERYTHING you have posted above IS OF ABSOLUTLY NO USE to me BECAUSE I'm no longer interested in photography.  Perhaps that's why I don't understand ANYTHING you wrote but it probably entertained all the Photography experts on the forum. 

YOU posted a challenge for me.  You also posted that you would not test what I SUGGESTED   you  try because it might mess up the settings of your equipment. 

Here is all I did:  I put the coin in the light box, centered it with the mouse, and punched a few keys.  Then I tipped the coin, centered it with the mouse. and punched a few keys.  As I already posted, I changed NOTHING - no settings, camera adjustments, or the CAMERA'S image after THE CAMERA made it.  The camera did EVERYTHING and they came out beautifully - child's play!       

Edited October 24, 2020 by Insider

[Insider]

12 hours ago, RWB said:

The thread is, as noted by the OP, about improving photos. Could others (including me) please stick to that?

OMG!  Do you wish to improve your photos?   Try tipping the coin.  In the meantime, I'll look forward to discussing the images OUR CAMERA EQUIPMENT made with the coins both flat and tipped.  Lets see which RAW and unimproved images folks like as a start before digitally changing them.  I hope you and the photography experts take the quiz.  IT IS NOT a "gotcha" but my guess is that three of the posters in this thread will not contribute.   

 

 

[brg5658]

5 hours ago, Insider said:

 

Don't try to blow smoke/weasel out with this:  “Gosh, I can take a picture of a Morgan dollar tilted an inch and fully in focus if I’m 15 feet away.”  

INITALLY, you re-posted a helpful description of how to photo a coin.  In your method, the coin was to be kept flat. I'm totally IGNORANT of digital Photography.  I read your post and SUGGESTED in a very nice way that you might wish to try tipping the coin to take an image.  Apparently, you felt your method challenged (??) in some way and THIS NONSENSE began.  You asked me to provide an image of a full coin.  While doing this I decide to PROVE that good images can be made when a coin is either flat or tipped (MY SIMPLE, HELPFUL SUGGESTION).  I'm going to post images so members can judge the results of MY INITIAL SUGGESTION to you - the photography "Ex-Pert."

Unfortunately, all the "fluff & smoke" you posted has proved to me AGAIN, and AGAIN that your comprehension of simple English is lacking. 

I'll explain what I did AGAIN (I cannot make it simpler) because EVERYTHING you have posted above IS OF ABSOLUTLY NO USE to me BECAUSE I'm no longer interested in photography.  Perhaps that's why I don't understand ANYTHING you wrote but it probably entertained all the Photography experts on the forum. 

YOU posted a challenge for me.  You also posted that you would not test what I SUGGESTED   you  try because it might mess up the settings of your equipment. 

Here is all I did:  I put the coin in the light box, centered it with the mouse, and punched a few keys.  Then I tipped the coin, centered it with the mouse. and punched a few keys.  As I already posted, I changed NOTHING - no settings, camera adjustments, or the CAMERA'S image after THE CAMERA made it.  The camera did EVERYTHING and they came out beautifully - child's play!       

Skip, in your usual style, you have offered NOTHING of any help to others.

This is not how the world is set up for others here.  We don’t just mosey down the hallway to our preset coin photography department and click on a mouse a few times to take coin photos.  You may have convinced yourself of something, but you have offered ZERO help to anyone here about taking better photos.  You did not even try to understand why we were saying what we were, but instead charged forward with your nonsensical “proof” exercise. If anyone seems to not comprehend simple English it is you. 

Now, thank you kindly for keeping your nonsense out of this thread.  Goodbye. 

[Insider]

5 hours ago, brg5658 said:

Skip, in your usual style, you have offered NOTHING of any help to others.

This is not how the world is set up for others here.  We don’t just mosey down the hallway to our preset coin photography department and click on a mouse a few times to take coin photos.  You may have convinced yourself of something, but you have offered ZERO help to anyone here about taking better photos.  You did not even try to understand why we were saying what we were, but instead charged forward with your nonsensical “proof” exercise. If anyone seems to not comprehend simple English it is you. 

Now, thank you kindly for keeping your nonsense out of this thread.  Goodbye. 

Nothing? = TRY TIPING YOU COIN for a great image.  

Sorry everyone, this photography "expert" does not wish for me to play anymore.