Please Help. Do you have a coin with this rim? 0

[Insider]

The marks on the rim of this quarter seem to be scarce.  I've seen them mostly on Washington Quarters and Peace dollars.  They are as made on the coin and NOT PMD.  Do you have a coin with this file-like characteristic on the rim and what do you think causes this effect>

[VKurtB]

Just now, Insider said:

The marks on the rim of this quarter seem to be scarce.  I've seen them mostly on Washington Quarters and Peace dollars.  They are as made on the coin and NOT PMD.  Do you have a coin with this file-like characteristic on the rim and what do you think causes this effect>

I do not, and more importantly, I would not want one.

[Insider]

Just now, VKurtB said:

I do not, and more importantly, I would not want one.

I would.  This coin was a "gem+."   Besides, once in most non-prong inserts they are hardly visible.  

[VKurtB]

Just now, Insider said:

I would.  This coin was a "gem+."   Besides, once in most non-prong inserts they are hardly visible.  

It doesn’t matter. My standards are my standards, and I would reject a coin with a rim like this. I frankly don’t care whether some unknown person graded it gem+, whatever that even means, or not.

[Insider]

Just now, VKurtB said:

It doesn’t matter. My standards are my standards, and I would reject a coin with a rim like this. I frankly don’t care whether some unknown person graded it gem+, whatever that even means, or not.

That's what makes the world go around.  Some folks would not like to own a 1943 copper because it is the wrong color. 

[VKurtB]

7 minutes ago, Insider said:

That's what makes the world go around.  Some folks would not like to own a 1943 copper because it is the wrong color. 

So am I interpreting you correctly that I am now required to care about errors and/or varieties? Is it now mandatory? That hardly seems American. 

[physics-fan3.14]

I can honestly say I've never seen a quarter like this, and can think of no error process by which this may occur. 

Maybe @RWB may have an answer? If not, try posting on CoinTalk and tagging Fred Weinberg? 

[Insider]

58 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

So am I interpreting you correctly that I am now required to care about errors and/or varieties? Is it now mandatory? That hardly seems American. 

 I have no clue where you got that idea. 

NOTE TO ALL MEMBERS:  I personally do not care what you collect, how you collect, the value of your collection, whether you buy TPG'ed coins, etc, Furthermore, I'm not interested in your sex, race, religion, politics or anything else about you.  That's because I really cannot tolerate most people!   

What I do care about is THIS:  Building up this web site so my company does not make me start one; and If I can help you become a more knowledgeable person (especially as a coin collector) and you can help me, I'll die happy.    Love to all!!

[Insider]

29 minutes ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

I can honestly say I've never seen a quarter like this, and can think of no error process by which this may occur. 

Maybe @RWB may have an answer? If not, try posting on CoinTalk and tagging Fred Weinberg? 

Welcome back!  It appears that you have changed your decision about commenting on my micrographs.  I wonder if this could result from a very worn collar?  I just had a Peace dollar like this today.  I didn't bother to image it but I'll find another soon.

[physics-fan3.14]

9 minutes ago, Insider said:

Welcome back!  It appears that you have changed your decision about commenting on my micrographs.  I wonder if this could result from a very worn collar?  I just had a Peace dollar like this today.  I didn't bother to image it but I'll find another soon.

1. I never said I'd never post about your micrographs. Sometimes, the closeup picture is all we need. On your toning threads, the micrographs are insufficient and completely inadequate. On this thread, a picture of the rim is sufficient to say I don't know what's going on. 

2. The collar would affect the reeding on the edge. It would not affect the rim, as shown in your picture. The rim is struck by the die, not the collar. 

3. If you have other pictures of other coins with this same effect, that would be very helpful. As I mentioned above, I've not seen this particular effect, but more pictures may help. 

[RWB]

A good photo of the obverse would be helpful. That places the anomaly in context of the entire die. Is the reverse normal? Is it correct that identical defects have been seen on multiple coins of the same (or different) date/mint?

[Conder101]

3 hours ago, Insider said:

I wonder if this could result from a very worn collar?

Considering that is the top surface of the rim and doesn't come in contact with the collar I would say probably not.  It just looks like PSD to me.

[RWB]

Maybe it's "PTSD" from having been through too many TPG submissions.

[Insider]

12 hours ago, RWB said:

A good photo of the obverse would be helpful. That places the anomaly in context of the entire die. Is the reverse normal? Is it correct that identical defects have been seen on multiple coins of the same (or different) date/mint?

The next time I get one of these I'll photo the entire rim.  As I recall, very often, the entire rim is not affected.  We shall see.

 

What's PSD? I've posted that the coin and its rim is 100% original as struck at the Mint!

Edited October 15, 2020 by Insider

[RWB]

RE: "The next time I get one of these I'll photo the entire rim.  As I recall, very often, the entire rim is not affected."

OK. Can't go further w/o a full image. There are several possible mechanical causes, but they cannot be separated by looking only at the defect. Better resolution and much less compression would also help - note the "granularity" and compression artifacts at lower right.

Edited October 15, 2020 by RWB

[Conder101]

PSD is Post Strike Damage.

If the fields near the rim looked like this I might think severe die wear.   I suppose it could be that and the die was subsequently heavily polished to remove the field flow lines.  The polishing would not affect the "gutter" around the periphery of the die that forms the top surface of the rim.

[kbbpll]

I can't add anything except to observe, but it seems like the effect is also repeated along the bottom edge of the bust. I wonder if it's something about the planchet that got struck out on the rest of the coin, or something related to strike pressure or temperature. The rim stuff has kind of a molten appearance.

[Moxie15]

This confuses me greatly.

I am not a great student of dies or the minting process. I have an unstruck cent planchet and I think the rim is fully formed.

The marks look like metal fatigue to me, like at least one other poster I think if it was in the field I would say it is die erosion or wear. If the die strikes and forms the top of the rim I see no reason that it is not die wear or erosion. If the die does not strike and form the top of the rim than I think the blank was not properly annealed before the rim was formed and the metal stressed during the upsetting process.

[Insider]

2 hours ago, Moxie15 said:

This confuses me greatly.

I am not a great student of dies or the minting process. I have an unstruck cent planchet and I think the rim is fully formed.

The marks look like metal fatigue to me, like at least one other poster I think if it was in the field I would say it is die erosion or wear. If the die strikes and forms the top of the rim I see no reason that it is not die wear or erosion. If the die does not strike and form the top of the rim than I think the blank was not properly annealed before the rim was formed and the metal stressed during the upsetting process.

It is not damage!!!   I thought some kind of die fatigue too.  Due to the responses I now wonder if the planchet was not annealed properly and the upset mill did this. 

[VKurtB]

7 minutes ago, Insider said:

not annealed properly

Very interesting hypothesis.

[physics-fan3.14]

9 hours ago, Insider said:

It is not damage!!!   I thought some kind of die fatigue too.  Due to the responses I now wonder if the planchet was not annealed properly and the upset mill did this. 

Please explain how the upset mill could do this? 

[RWB]

When coin blanks are fed into the upsetting machine, they are squeezed slightly to make them perfectly round with a smooth edge and a raised periphery that will eventually become part of the coin rim. However, as noted by others, the rim is cut into the die and is formed by the die. Upsetting facilitates rim formation and permits lower striking pressure while filling the design.

[Insider]

14 hours ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

Please explain how the upset mill could do this? 

Pressure?

This we know for sure:

1. The edge is totally original.  This is not PMD!

2  The marks were on the planchet because the part of the die that makes a rim does not get worn to this extent or we would see this all the time.  It is an uncommon characteristic.

This we don't know YET:

1. What part of the minting process did this happen?

 

I'm surprised that  no one has posted an image of a similar coin yet.   You probably can't see it in a slab.   Look at Peace dollars and quarters in the 40's.  I've seen this on half dollars and Morgan's.  I don't recall any coin smaller than a quarter with this characteristic.   

Edited October 17, 2020 by Insider

[VKurtB]

How are we so certain it’s not PMD? I’m not saying it is, but I’m not seeing how we can say with certitude that it is not. 

[physics-fan3.14]

5 hours ago, Insider said:

1. The edge is totally original.  This is not PMD!

 

'm surprised that  no one has posted an image of a similar coin yet.   You probably can't see it in a slab.   Look at Peace dollars and quarters in the 40's.  I've seen this on half dollars and Morgan's.  I don't recall any coin smaller than a quarter with this characteristic.   

1. Are we talking about the edge or the rim? You mention the edge, and show a picture of the rim. Is the edge on this coin different in some way? Or are you confusing terminology? 

2. How do we know that the effect you show on the rim is original and not PMD? PMD is much easier to explain on this coin than some mint effect. I've never seen this effect myself, and I've never seen any process described which would reasonably produce this effect. 

3. Maybe nobody's posted an image of a similar coin because nobody's seen a similar coin? 

4. The effect you show would be easily visible in any slab, including the pronged slabs that cover parts of the rim. The portion of rim shown is significant. 

5. You say you've only seen this on larger coins. Can you think of any reason why it would be on larger denominations and not smaller? And, since you assert this is a mint made effect, can you explain how/why there is a difference between these larger denominations and the smaller ones? 

Edited October 17, 2020 by physics-fan3.14

[VKurtB]

23 minutes ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

1. Are we talking about the edge or the rim? You mention the edge, and show a picture of the rim. Is the edge on this coin different in some way? Or are you confusing terminology? 

2. How do we know that the effect you show on the rim is original and not PMD? PMD is much easier to explain on this coin than some mint effect. I've never seen this effect myself, and I've never seen any process described which would reasonably produce this effect. 

3. Maybe nobody's posted an image of a similar coin because nobody's seen a similar coin? 

4. The effect you show would be easily visible in any slab, including the pronged slabs that cover parts of the rim. The portion of rim shown is significant. 

5. You say you've only seen this on larger coins. Can you think of any reason why it would be on larger denominations and not smaller? And, since you assert this is a mint made effect, can you explain how/why there is a difference between these larger denominations and the smaller ones? 

+1, and Jason doesn't even like me.

[Insider]

1 hour ago, VKurtB said:

How are we so certain it’s not PMD? I’m not saying it is, but I’m not seeing how we can say with certitude that it is not. 

About 49+ years of  examining coins at extreme magnification.   Of course this is a complete joke that cannot possibly be true. 

The reason this is not PMD is any time you look at an "as made artifact" on a coin using high magnification. you will be able to see an original, undisturbed surface.  Any form of PMD destroys the originality of a surface.  Except for perhaps .01% of the time, you cannot hide PMD with toning, cleaning or chemicals.  

[VKurtB]

7 minutes ago, Insider said:

About 49+ years of  examining coins at extreme magnification.   Of course this is a complete joke that cannot possibly be true. 

The reason this is not PMD is any time you look at an "as made artifact" on a coin using high magnification. you will be able to see an original, undisturbed surface.  Any form of PMD destroys the originality of a surface.  Except for perhaps .01% of the time, you cannot hide PMD with toning, cleaning or chemicals.  

That leaves me with one question/observation. Is not the rim of any regular coin the highest point of relief? If it were not, stacking would be negatively impacted, as has happened with some issues over the centuries, but not this one. If it truly is the highest feature, why on earth could it NOT be PMD, leaving everything lower unaffected?

I am detecting a strong whiff of an assumption being portrayed as a truth. Not that you're alone in that, particularly on coin discussion boards, where seemingly EVERYONE is portraying themselves as the smartest damned person in the room.

Edited October 17, 2020 by VKurtB

[Insider]

42 minutes ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

1. Are we talking about the edge or the rim? You mention the edge, and show a picture of the rim. Is the edge on this coin different in some way? Or are you confusing terminology? 

2. How do we know that the effect you show on the rim is original and not PMD? PMD is much easier to explain on this coin than some mint effect. I've never seen this effect myself, and I've never seen any process described which would reasonably produce this effect. 

3. Maybe nobody's posted an image of a similar coin because nobody's seen a similar coin? 

4. The effect you show would be easily visible in any slab, including the pronged slabs that cover parts of the rim. The portion of rim shown is significant. 

5. You say you've only seen this on larger coins. Can you think of any reason why it would be on larger denominations and not smaller? And, since you assert this is a mint made effect, can you explain how/why there is a difference between these larger denominations and the smaller ones? 

1. Thanks for the correction Jason.  You are the man.  Since the image does not show the coins edge stupid me should be much more careful to use the correct terminology so I don't lead folks astray.  I'm thankful that I didn't need to correct the title of this thread.

2. Forty-nine years ...    There's that joke again.

3. I've seen many hundreds of them and until now never thought anything about it.  After seeing this coin last week I got interested.

4. Thanks for the correction.  I forgot all about the prong holders.  None of the TPGS that I worked for had them.  NGC started after I left and ICG only uses them for the small modern dollars.

5. Nope.  That's why I'm asking all the coin experts here.  

I'll be looking for other examples to post.  

[Insider]

42 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

That leaves me with one question/observation. Is not the rim of any regular coin the highest point of relief? If it were not, stacking would be negatively impacted, as has happened with some issues over the centuries, but not this one. If it truly is the highest feature, why on earth could it NOT be PMD, leaving everything lower unaffected?

I am detecting a strong whiff of an assumption being portrayed as a truth. Not that you're alone in that, particularly on coin discussion boards, where seemingly EVERYONE is portraying themselves as the smartest damned person in the room.

I have no clue.  Perhaps you should ask the experts.  Until Jason, you, and a few others started to asking great questions and making  suggestions I never gave this a thought.  All I know for sure is this is NOT PMD.