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Is this NT or AT.
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38 posts in this topic

The entire coin looks like this.  It is kind of pretty but I wonder if it is natural. 

If you think this is AT or NT:

1. How do you think it happened?    

2, What is the reason for your opinion?  

IMG_3345.JPG

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I can understand your need for micro photos on many posts. 

This one absolutely requires a full coin shot. There very well may be characteristics on one part of the coin which help an argument for or against natural toning, but which are not visible in your (I'm sure, intentionally) cropped shot. 

This one also requires a correctly white balanced shot - the picture you posted appears to be *significantly* yellow shifted. 

I will not opine on this until the full coin, obverse and reverse, are posted.

Edited by physics-fan3.14
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28 minutes ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

I can understand your need for micro photos on many posts. 

This one absolutely requires a full coin shot. There very well may be characteristics on one part of the coin which help an argument for or against natural toning, but which are not visible in your (I'm sure, intentionally) cropped shot. 

This one also requires a correctly white balanced shot - the picture you posted appears to be *significantly* yellow shifted. 

I will not opine on this until the full coin, obverse and reverse, are posted.

I'm very deeply sorry to learn that you will no longer be responding to ANY MORE of my posts with micrographs.  I know your comments will be missed by all of us.   :hi:

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59 minutes ago, Insider said:

I'm very deeply sorry to learn that you will no longer be responding to ANY MORE of my posts with micrographs.  I know your comments will be missed by all of us.   :hi:

Skip, some of your threads with micrographs are quite useful with their mini photos. You're focusing on a specific detail, and a view of the full coin is not required for understanding the micro-effect in question. I get it. I've defended you. 

This thread is different, however, as you're asking about toning. Toning is not a micro-effect. Toning occurs across the entire coin. If I were to take a micrograph of a specific area of an AT'd coin, there might be enough markers to think its natural. However, when viewed across the entire coin, it's obvious its AT. Showing a very, very poorly color balanced microphoto and asking us to guess if it is naturally or artificially toned is absolutely counterproductive, deceptive, and honestly, useless. 

As you know, I've often been a big defender of your posts, despite the critics and trolls. I've offered numerous suggestions to help make them better. 

It strongly disappoints me that you've chosen to irrationally fly off the handle at me for calling you out on this thread. 

I never said I wouldn't respond to any more of your threads. What I said was, this *particular* thread is absolutely useless without full pictures of obverse and reverse. Even if you post ridiculously yellow-shifted pictures (as in your OP), we can correct for that. Just show us the whole coin. If you're going to ask about toning, I need to see the whole coin. If you can't show me the whole coin.... I can't give you an opinion. 

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1 hour ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

Skip, some of your threads with micrographs are quite useful with their mini photos. You're focusing on a specific detail, and a view of the full coin is not required for understanding the micro-effect in question. I get it. I've defended you. 

This thread is different, however, as you're asking about toning. Toning is not a micro-effect. Toning occurs across the entire coin. If I were to take a micrograph of a specific area of an AT'd coin, there might be enough markers to think its natural. However, when viewed across the entire coin, it's obvious its AT. Showing a very, very poorly color balanced microphoto and asking us to guess if it is naturally or artificially toned is absolutely counterproductive, deceptive, and honestly, useless. 

As you know, I've often been a big defender of your posts, despite the critics and trolls. I've offered numerous suggestions to help make them better. 

It strongly disappoints me that you've chosen to irrationally fly off the handle at me for calling you out on this thread. 

I never said I wouldn't respond to any more of your threads. What I said was, this *particular* thread is absolutely useless without full pictures of obverse and reverse. Even if you post ridiculously yellow-shifted pictures (as in your OP), we can correct for that. Just show us the whole coin. If you're going to ask about toning, I need to see the whole coin. If you can't show me the whole coin.... I can't give you an opinion. 

Chill, I didn't fly off anything. I gave you a sarcastic reply that was the truth.  I think all of us would miss your comments but you are not going to get a full image.  This is exactly the color of this coin.  IMHO, there is enough in the image to take a guess - AT or NT.  No one is getting graded here.   

PS  As you have stated, I could post one part of a coin with AT and show another part of the same coin with NT.  Unfortunately, I will not be able to do that now because folks will be wise to my tricks to help learn.

    

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If you're not going to post full pics, then the colors are AT to me and so is the other coin. That's my guess and it stands until I see the whole coin. Lol 

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7 minutes ago, Insider said:

but you are not going to get a full image

Sometimes, a full image is helpful. I've posted about this before. 

Sometimes, a full image is necessary. This is one example. 

Please either post a full image, or tell us what you're trying to get at in this case. Because we aren't going to get it from tiny images. I consider myself very good at identifying AT vs NT - but I'd consider it madness to even attempt from a tiny fraction of one side photograph that's absolutely color imbalanced as badly as your picture. 

 

And dude, for the love of Venus, please post color corrected photos. I'm ok if you post black and whites if they are properly adjusted, but it seems that many of your micrographs have a STRONG shift to the yellow or green. It's highly distracting. 

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This is what I think, nothing more or less,

All toning is a natural reaction of the coin to its environment.

All toning is caused by someone putting the coin in a less than ideal environment.

This coin has lived in a very rough environment, it looks to have been a bit weakly struck, circulated a while and damaged and countermarked with an 8 punch before it was placed in a high sulfur holder (I think a coin envelope) causing the yellow, orange, and golds. After a time the coin was placed in another environment causing the blues, greens, and blacks. 

This coin was purposely placed in the above mentioned environments in misguided attempts to better the coin.

By the accepted definition the toning is Natural and market acceptable. 

Again, this is all just what I think from the information provided

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I think the color progression is legit, but I think the pictures have been juiced to fool us and/or teach something. I vote NT.

And, yeah, in order for someone to properly asses a coin, full, clear pictures are necessary. But, this is a mostly anonymous coin forum, not a matter of life or death. If you want to have some fun posting cryptic threads, let 'er rip. I will play along, show how little I know, and maybe learn something along the way.

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12 hours ago, bsshog40 said:

If you're not going to post full pics, then the colors are AT to me and so is the other coin. That's my guess and it stands until I see the whole coin. Lol 

SELF EDIT:  No comment for now.  You have left off the most important part of your post.  What made you arrive at your opinion?

12 hours ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

So, you're telling me the holder is banana yellow? 

I doubt it. 

Or at least, I hope not. 

Good eye!  It is not in a holder.  It's on a tan piece of cardboard.

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12 hours ago, physics-fan3.14 said:

Sometimes, a full image is helpful. I've posted about this before. 

Sometimes, a full image is necessary. This is one example. 

Please either post a full image, or tell us what you're trying to get at in this case. Because we aren't going to get it from tiny images. I consider myself very good at identifying AT vs NT - but I'd consider it madness to even attempt from a tiny fraction of one side photograph that's absolutely color imbalanced as badly as your picture. 

 

And dude, for the love of Venus, please post color corrected photos. I'm ok if you post black and whites if they are properly adjusted, but it seems that many of your micrographs have a STRONG shift to the yellow or green. It's highly distracting. 

Dude, when you publish the next edition of your book, you may wish to improve your images.    

Now, as you and others have posted, a photo of the entire coin would be helpful.  Unfortunately, it is not going to happen.  That's because the images I post have all the clues necessary for a numismatist of your level to make an informed guess.  My work is done at the "micro" level and the purpose of my posts is to introduce many people to highly magnified views of characteristics they have possibly never seen on a coin.   

Please quit your whining and go "police" :busy: the forums for some thread to report!    

BTW, we are all making progress.  When I opened up the forum today there were FIFTEEN ALERTS.  :golfclap:

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1 hour ago, Just Bob said:

I think the color progression is legit, but I think the pictures have been juiced to fool us and/or teach something. I vote NT.

And, yeah, in order for someone to properly asses a coin, full, clear pictures are necessary. But, this is a mostly anonymous coin forum, not a matter of life or death. If you want to have some fun posting cryptic threads, let 'er rip. I will play along, show how little I know, and maybe learn something along the way.

Good Guess.  Bad Color Progression.  Yes!

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7 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

It looks like there is more toning around the edge than the middle.

There is a halo/backlighting effect around the 'H' that I don't think would be there if AT.

My guess is NT.

Good guess,  The halo effect is a good indication of NT.  From what I have seen, the "halo" usually goes in one direction.  Bob Paul called it "Draft" because it looks like an air current flowed over the coin's surface and did not tone the lee side.  See my crappy, off-color, image for an example:  

If anyone has a TPGS slab with a toning halo completely around a letter, please post it.

 

IMG_5432.JPG

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2 hours ago, Moxie15 said:

This is what I think, nothing more or less,

All toning is a natural reaction of the coin to its environment.

All toning is caused by someone putting the coin in a less than ideal environment.

This coin has lived in a very rough environment, it looks to have been a bit weakly struck, circulated a while and damaged and countermarked with an 8 punch before it was placed in a high sulfur holder (I think a coin envelope) causing the yellow, orange, and golds. After a time the coin was placed in another environment causing the blues, greens, and blacks. 

This coin was purposely placed in the above mentioned environments in misguided attempts to better the coin.

By the accepted definition the toning is Natural and market acceptable. 

Again, this is all just what I think from the information provided

(thumbsu:golfclap:I wish everyone posted as this member!  The answer is completely contained in this post.  (worship)

I'll comment later after a few mor replies. 

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Unless you have followed the coin for its entire existence, the declarations of "naturally toned" (NT) and "artificially toned" (AT) are nothing more than wild guesses by supposed "experts".

The more relevant question is whether the toning is market acceptable or not.

Sadly, on all fronts, it's hard to tell anything because the photos are so awful.

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24 minutes ago, brg5658 said:

Unless you have followed the coin for its entire existence, the declarations of "naturally toned" (NT) and "artificially toned" (AT) are nothing more than wild guesses by supposed "experts".

The more relevant question is whether the toning is market acceptable or not.

Sadly, on all fronts, it's hard to tell anything because the photos are so awful.

I disagree because I was there. :whistle:

Perhaps one day, after you have been collecting for at least two more decades, and have seen tens of thousands more coins,  you MAY have a chance to approach the knowledge of those supposed "experts" making wild guesses who just may be laughing at the moment.  

Let's try and salvage your comments.  Consider this: In many cases, we don't get to pick out the circumstances surrounding the environment when we get to examine a coin.  In this case, the entire coin is not imaged and several members have indicated it is a terrible micrograph.  Those members have swung and missed or just let the ball go by for a STRIKE OUT!.  NEVERTHE LESS, other members have stepped up to the plate and hit a home run in the rain with the wind blowing in their face. 

I encourage to step up to the plate again.  Do you think the toning on the 8 Rls.is "market acceptable?"      

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18 minutes ago, Insider said:

I disagree because I was there. :whistle:

Perhaps one day, after you have been collecting for at least two more decades, and have seen tens of thousands more coins,  you MAY have a chance to approach the knowledge of those supposed "experts" making wild guesses who just may be laughing at the moment.  

Let's try and salvage your comments.  Consider this: In many cases, we don't get to pick out the circumstances surrounding the environment when we get to examine a coin.  In this case, the entire coin is not imaged and several members have indicated it is a terrible micrograph.  Those members have swung and missed or just let the ball go by for a STRIKE OUT!.  NEVERTHE LESS, other members have stepped up to the plate and hit a home run in the rain with the wind blowing in their face. 

I encourage to step up to the plate again.  Do you think the toning on the 8 Rls.is "market acceptable?"      

Impossible to tell because your pictures suck. 
 

And, no amount of viewing coins will ever give you magical skills to know a coins complete existence.  Stop making believe otherwise. 

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1 hour ago, brg5658 said:

Impossible to tell because your pictures suck. 
 

And, no amount of viewing coins will ever give you magical skills to know a coins complete existence.  Stop making believe otherwise. 

Well, this thread has been dragged into the toilet by the uninformed.  As posted by others, the coin is 100% AT.   The clues include the wrong color progression, vivid colors, and halos completely around the letters.  I PERSONALLY toned it as most students would be attracted to its color.  The coin was left in a warm solution of a common chemical for several hours.  Since the experiment, the coin has been returned to its normal color.   

Edited by Insider
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7 minutes ago, Insider said:

Well, this thread has been dragged into the toilet by the uninformed.  As posted by others, the coin is 100% AT.   The clues include the wrong color progression, vivid colors, and halos completely around the letters.  I PERSONALLY toned it as most students would be attracted to its color.  The coin was left in a warm solution of a common chemical for several hours.  Since the experiment, the coin has been returned to its normal color.   

So you're a coin doctor.  Cool... :whatev:

How would one determine "vivid colors" and wrong color progression from such awfully lit and out of color-balance images you posted?  Seriously... If we are supposed to use the colors of a coin to answer your loaded questions, then take photos that display the colors accurately.

For your education, the thing you're calling a "halo" is usually called "pull away toning" by people who collect toned coins. 

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SELF EDIT  :angel:

30 minutes ago, brg5658 said:

So you're a coin doctor.  Cool... :whatev:

How would one determine "vivid colors" and wrong color progression from such awfully lit and out of color-balance images you posted?  Seriously... If we are supposed to use the colors of a coin to answer your loaded questions, then take photos that display the colors accurately.

For your education, the thing you're calling a "halo" is usually called "pull away toning" by people who collect toned coins. 

Yes. Some would call me a coin doctor. I've been cleaning coins professionally since 1972 when I worked for the ANA and at the four TPGS I've been with since then.  I helped start NCS at NGC.  What I do is actually called coin conservation because when I do it, your ??? ilk cannot tell and the coins are preserved for future generations.  

It is not very funny when a English comprehension challenged individual makes an ignorant statement so I'll try again.  

IMG_5432.JPG   

This is an example showing one of the characteristics attributed to NT.  It has been given many names over the last fifty years.  One prominent numismatist called it "Draft Toning."  The commonly used term at this time is "pull-away." 

The term "halo" is used when a relief device on a coin has a different color or surface around it producing a "Halo Effect."  This is an especially common characteristic when coins are mechanically cleaned.  One member noticed the "halo" of yellow color around the "H" on the 8 Rls.

This is a chemical "Halo."

 

 

IMG_4608.JPG

Edited by Insider
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I'll post again (as have others here) since you like to just ignore whole very valid swaths of people's posts:

 

How would one determine "vivid colors" and wrong color progression from such awfully lit and out of color-balance images you posted?  Seriously... If we are supposed to use the colors of a coin to answer your loaded questions, then take photos that display the colors accurately.

 

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1 minute ago, brg5658 said:

I'll post again (as have others here) since you like to just ignore whole very valid swaths of people's posts:

 

How would one determine "vivid colors" and wrong color progression from such awfully lit and out of color-balance images you posted?  Seriously... If we are supposed to use the colors of a coin to answer your loaded questions, then take photos that display the colors accurately.

 

Gee, Wally, I'll guess you'll need to ask "someone" who knows.  :roflmao:

Only kidding, You have asked a great question.  There is a great explanation of color progression on the Internet.  As for my images, sorry.  I do the best I can.

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3 minutes ago, Insider said:

Gee, Wally, I'll guess you'll need to ask "someone" who knows.  :roflmao:

Only kidding, You have asked a great question.  There is a great explanation of color progression on the Internet.  As for my images, sorry.  I do the best I can.

I already know the color progression charts of Doug Kurz and others (thin film optics is dictated by physics, so this is also well known outside of numismatics).  My point was that someone cannot feasibly apply those color progressions to coin photographs unless the photographer has taken photos that show mostly accurate color progressions.  Thus, as others have stated - the photos need to be accurate - in color and otherwise.

I am not trying to detract from this thread.  I'm trying to help you understand that these are not catty or ill-intentioned deflections by other posters here - they are completely valid points. 

The quality of answers given in a thread is proportional to the quality of the post (and photos) asking the question.

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Gale Spring, Adjunct Associate Professor of Scientific Photography at RMIT University in Melbourne, Australia demonstrates a method used to provide even lighting for a highly reflective object.

Hummm...

BTW, most suggestions from members are valid: Proper color, whole coin, sharp focus, etc.  I have not disagreed with any of them (except :nyah: tipping a coin in some cases).  Unfortunately, folks will just have to use the images I choose to give them.  End of discussion.

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2 minutes ago, Insider said:

Gale Spring, Adjunct Associate Professor of Scientific Photography at RMIT University in Melbourne, Australia demonstrates a method used to provide even lighting for a highly reflective object.

Hummm...

BTW, most suggestions from members are valid: Proper color, whole coin, sharp focus, etc.  I have not disagreed with any of them (except :nyah: tipping a coin in some cases).  Unfortunately, folks will just have to use the images I choose to give them.  End of discussion.

So basically, you're too lazy to take good photos.  You have time to spend preaching on these boards to everyone about your infinite numismatic knowledge, but you can't set the white balance on a camera.  Makes sense. :facepalm:

As usual - I will wash my hands of this thread.  :hi:

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