WARNING: eBay States that NGC Sells Fake "Hand Signed" Labels, Claims NGC Actually Using Autopen
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Ok I lost $583.54 but NGC stands to lose a lot more, here are the details:

 

1) Sold via eBay a 2019 1oz Apollo 11 Robbins Restrke Silver with Charlie Duke Label.  

NGC Cert # 4872424-302 https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4872424-302/70/

eBay Listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/184260158828

Buyer contacted eBay, said the signature was fake/autopen, eBay reviewed his photos of the sealed NGC coin and confirmed that the NGC encapsulated coin was done using autopen and not "hand signed" as the NGC label states. 

After multiple emails to the buyer and ebay, it actually ended up with eBay giving the buyer all their money back and letting them keep the coin.  They said since I don't accept returns that this is their policy, so I no coin, no money and a big ? as to why eBay trusts a user over a NGC label...

 

2) Further to this, the buyer left public negative feedback on the purchase stating again "Charles Duke signature is known autopen - NOT HAND SIGNED" 

Feedback: https://www.ebay.com/fdbk/feedback_profile/lnvestments?filter=feedback_page:RECEIVED_AS_SELLER

I contacted eBay again on this specific feedback and again, eBay agreed with the buyer that the NGC coin was autopen and they refused to remove the feedback.

 

3) I hope someone at NGC reads this and can reach out to someone at eBay, as for me this isn't the end of the world, but wow if eBay just stops accepting NGC labels/grading/certifications over users personal opinions it could get really messy for the coin world. If someone at NGC reads this and wants to follow up with eBay, the details of this are:

Case ID : 5248759075
Buyer ID : pasteiner
Item ID : 184260158828

 

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Sounds like that "Buyer" knew what they were doing, the Feedback they left is a red flag to me "known autopen". 

If this is accurate I wouldn't be putting any of those up for sale on eBay until this is resolved. 

Interesting to see if NGC replies.

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Considering ebay lists NGC as a trusted source of graded coins numerous times on their website, and has a pricing relationship with them, this really surprises me that they sided with the buyer.

I would also block that buyer.  

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9 hours ago, CTEVN said:

Ok I lost $583.54 but NGC stands to lose a lot more, here are the details:

 

1) Sold via eBay a 2019 1oz Apollo 11 Robbins Restrke Silver with Charlie Duke Label.  

NGC Cert # 4872424-302 https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/4872424-302/70/

eBay Listing: https://www.ebay.com/itm/184260158828

Buyer contacted eBay, said the signature was fake/autopen, eBay reviewed his photos of the sealed NGC coin and confirmed that the NGC encapsulated coin was done using autopen and not "hand signed" as the NGC label states. 

After multiple emails to the buyer and ebay, it actually ended up with eBay giving the buyer all their money back and letting them keep the coin.  They said since I don't accept returns that this is their policy, so I no coin, no money and a big ? as to why eBay trusts a user over a NGC label...

 

2) Further to this, the buyer left public negative feedback on the purchase stating again "Charles Duke signature is known autopen - NOT HAND SIGNED" 

Feedback: https://www.ebay.com/fdbk/feedback_profile/lnvestments?filter=feedback_page:RECEIVED_AS_SELLER

I contacted eBay again on this specific feedback and again, eBay agreed with the buyer that the NGC coin was autopen and they refused to remove the feedback.

 

3) I hope someone at NGC reads this and can reach out to someone at eBay, as for me this isn't the end of the world, but wow if eBay just stops accepting NGC labels/grading/certifications over users personal opinions it could get really messy for the coin world. If someone at NGC reads this and wants to follow up with eBay, the details of this are:

Case ID : 5248759075
Buyer ID : pasteiner
Item ID : 184260158828

 

It seems a slim chance that NGC will take action based on a post here.

If I were you I would send an email to NGC explaining the situation as you did here, and ask them for clarification about the signature(s).

When you get the reply, forward it to everyone at ebay who you've had email contact with so far. Include a polite note telling them that if you don't receive a full credit/payment for the coin, (or the sender be required to return the coin to you,) that you will have "no choice but to seek counsel in order to recover the value of the item and the costs associated with that recovery". (If you want to, you can also point out that there are many other ebay users, current AND former, who have no doubt suffered losses from this most unfair practice.) The fact you don't accept returns should not have been used as a reason for the buyers being allowed to keep the item and the money.

You might also send them all a link to this thread.

That last recommendation worked quite well for a fellow forumite 'across the street', (who was dealing with APMEX.)  Someone from the company actually signed up to the PCGS chat board just to reply to the thread, explaining why the problem had occurred.

Welcome to the boards, CTEVN!

 

Edited by ProfHaroldHill
Clarify

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34 minutes ago, Max Spiegel said:

Thank you for sharing this information.

All of Charlie Duke's NGC labels are individually hand-signed. The NGC label even says "Authentic Hand-Signed" below each signature. Every signature on an NGC Authentic Hand-Signed label is guaranteed to be genuine, backed by our comprehensive NGC Guarantee.  

I talked to a couple of people on the eBay Trust team today and let them know about this situation. They have advised that they will look into it further. 

In the future, if you encounter a situation like this, please contact NGC Customer Service as soon as possible since we may be able to help fix the issue.  

Max

Hi Max,

What your saying about the labels is what I understood and expected, but it sure hard as a seller to have eBay supersede NGC verification.  As not much a guarantee will do if nobody will honor it, reminds me of the scene in Tommy Boy...

 

 

 

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Ebay is not concerned with protecting the seller or the buyer, only themselves. This has been very obvious in my dealings with them for 20+ years.  I lost several hundred dollars to a fraudulent seller and then lost again to a crooked buyer, and ebay was unwilling to even listen to my side of either case. I decided the risk was too high and quit selling through them several years ago.

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This "Coin Marketplace" forum is for people who want to sell or buy coins.  You could have put this in the "Ask NGC" section and they would have been sure to see it.  It  was fortunate that they did see it here.  You could also put your issue in the main coin forum.  Which will get more views.

The first thing you should have done is called NGC.

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2 hours ago, Lancek said:

This "Coin Marketplace" forum is for people who want to sell or buy coins.  You could have put this in the "Ask NGC" section and they would have been sure to see it.  It  was fortunate that they did see it here.  You could also put your issue in the main coin forum.  Which will get more views.

The first thing you should have done is called NGC.

Well, NGC did see it, and they didn't move it, so I think the OP is fine.  

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On 10/16/2020 at 8:42 AM, Lancek said:

This "Coin Marketplace" forum is for people who want to sell or buy coins.  You could have put this in the "Ask NGC" section and they would have been sure to see it.  It  was fortunate that they did see it here.  You could also put your issue in the main coin forum.  Which will get more views.

The first thing you should have done is called NGC.

NGC itself can't do much, if anything on this.  eBay is the company that has decided that they will accept a persons opinion and don't honor the NGC information/rating.  So this post I thought was very much suited to the marketplace section, as us sellers are really the ones being directly effected by this.  

It sucks to think that someone could buy your coin graded MS 70 by NGC and the buyer says nah, its really a MS 67 and they want their money back and to keep the coin.  Basically this is exactly what happened to me, I lost my money on the sale and the coin, all because eBay trusted a users opinion over what the NGC label stated.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Ron Valentine said:

Any update OP?

Nothing, NGC didn't make any effort to contact me outside of their post above and eBay hasn't reversed their decision. 

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On 10/16/2020 at 8:42 AM, Lancek said:

 It  was fortunate that they did see it here.

Agreed!

Don't know how customer svc. works when it comes to the boards, but I've got a question I posted at the 'Ask NGC' board and it's been there, unanswered, for several weeks now.

Based on my experience, I had thought maybe I should advise the OP to send up a flare! xD

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13 hours ago, CTEVN said:

NGC itself can't do much, if anything on this.  eBay is the company that has decided that they will accept a persons opinion and don't honor the NGC information/rating.  So this post I thought was very much suited to the marketplace section, as us sellers are really the ones being directly effected by this.  

It sucks to think that someone could buy your coin graded MS 70 by NGC and the buyer says nah, its really a MS 67 and they want their money back and to keep the coin.  Basically this is exactly what happened to me, I lost my money on the sale and the coin, all because eBay trusted a users opinion over what the NGC label stated.

 

 

If you had placed a phone call to NGC immediately, they could have possible provided input to ebay that might have affected ebay's decision.  Maybe you would still have your $538.  Now that ebay has made a decision, it seems unlikely NGC will be able to do much for you.  But they probably will work with ebay to make sure they understand the sig is real, and this won't happen to other sellers.

It also sound like if you accepted returns, you could have at least gotten the coin back.  I offer returns on all my listings.  And generally won't buy from a seller who doesn't offer them.  Especially at the price point you are talking about.

BTW, did you read the Marketplace guidelines post.  Are you offering a coin to sell to us?  Wanting to buy a coin?  Trade for a coin?  Did you list the price, shipping methods, acceptable form of payment?  Link to a coin that you currently have for sale?

I do list some of my ebay sales on the Marketplace forum.  I know how seldom it gets used, or viewed.  I was simply being nice and trying to point out that the main forum would have been likely to get more eyeballs on your post.

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On 10/18/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lancek said:

 I was simply being nice and trying to point out that the main forum would have been likely to get more eyeballs on your post.

I don't know man.  Almost half of the topics in this forum are nothing but Ebay links.  So I think this is a great spot for an ebay related selling issue.  Also, at first glance, this topic has more views that at least half of the threads on the main page.  

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On 10/16/2020 at 11:42 AM, Lancek said:

This "Coin Marketplace" forum is for people who want to sell or buy coins.  You could have put this in the "Ask NGC" section and they would have been sure to see it.  It  was fortunate that they did see it here.  You could also put your issue in the main coin forum.  Which will get more views.

The first thing you should have done is called NGC.

Yep!

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8 hours ago, Morpheus1967 said:

I don't know man.  Almost half of the topics in this forum are nothing but Ebay links.  So I think this is a great spot for an ebay related selling issue.  Also, at first glance, this topic has more views that at least half of the threads on the main page.  

“Almost half” are nothing but ebay links?  More like 90%. This forum used to be collectors offering to sell coins to other collectors.  If I want to buy a coin on ebay, I search ebay for it.  Maybe 1 out of 25 posts on this board now are collector to collector sales and not auction links.  

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On 10/14/2020 at 7:49 PM, e1cnr said:

unbelievable they get to keep the coin and money back

This is actually their standard operating procedure. Many years ago I sold a raw coin and the buyer said it was fake. I knew it wasn't, but no big deal, just return it. Buyer refuses to return the coin "because he is concerned I'll just resell the fake" and he still demands money back and says he will destroy the fake. I even offered to have it graded by PCGS/NGC (his choice) to prove it was real and he refused. I refuse to refund and he gets eBay involved. eBay sided with him and let him keep the coin and processed a refund for him automatically. 

It was only after I make it clear to eBay what my next course of action would be (and pointing out my eBay fees neared 100K that year) that they decided to be magnanimous and compensate the buyer out of their pocket rather than stealing money from me. 

And the coin came from a dealer who is an internationally recognized expert and is an outside authenticator for a TPG. 

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On 10/19/2020 at 10:37 AM, Morpheus1967 said:

Also, at first glance, this topic has more views that at least half of the threads on the main page.  

Probably due in large part to how incendiary his thread title is.  Same title, same post in the main forum might have gotten more views.

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32 minutes ago, Lancek said:

Probably due in large part to how incendiary his thread title is.  Same title, same post in the main forum might have gotten more views.

True.  

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