What defines a "Conservative" or "Liberal" coin grader 1 1

[VKurtB]

These ancient history lessons are fine as far as they go, but they are useless for today’s hobby.

[Insider]

4 hours ago, VKurtB said:

These ancient history lessons are fine as far as they go, but they are useless for today’s hobby.

 History tends to repeat itself.  I'll bet you didn't know  that when the major TPGS's started to "detail" coins they are doing the exact same "technical grading" that we  did about fifteen years before. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Insider

[VKurtB]

I’ve found that those who believe history repeats itself have a twisted view of history. 

[RWB]

The idea is that we fail to learn from history, and thus repeat the same kinds of mistakes. But, then, you folks are just being intentionally obtuse.

There's no consensus among posters on what the terms mean...at least thus far.

Edited October 17, 2020 by RWB

[Insider]

1 hour ago, RWB said:

The idea is that we fail to learn from history, and thus repeat the same kinds of mistakes. But, then, you folks are just being intentionally obtuse.

There's no consensus among posters on what the terms mean...at least thus far.

It is probably impossible to reach a consensus on an ADJECTIVE.  

Example: I get almost daily gripes from collectors and others complaining that So-and-So is small or So-and So is large.   Another variant is that So-and-So is large when buying and small when selling.  So what is small and large when speaking about something on a coin such as a scratch?    I guess it is as subjective as conservative and liberal.  

[Moxie15]

I think most of us, both experts and novices tend to fine it this way...

A Conservative grader is that damn fool at the TPG that graded this obvious MS 66 at MS 63.

A Liberal grader is the blind insufficiently_thoughtful_person who graded that obvious MS 63 as an MS 66.

Most use their opinion as the standard, be it a learned opinion or an ignorant opinion, any thing higher is liberal anything under is conservative.

[MarkFeld]

14 minutes ago, Moxie15 said:

I think most of us, both experts and novices tend to fine it this way...

A Conservative grader is that damn fool at the TPG that graded this obvious MS 66 at MS 63.

A Liberal grader is the blind insufficiently_thoughtful_person who graded that obvious MS 63 as an MS 66.

Most use their opinion as the standard, be it a learned opinion or an ignorant opinion, any thing higher is liberal anything under is conservative.

I have no choice other than to agree, as your last sentence/paragraph jives with what I’d posted. 😉

[Walkerfan]

At the end of the day........I trust MY OWN opinion. 

I feel SOOOOO sorry for those who don't know how to grade and must rely on other entities to edify their buying decisions. 

If I see a coin that is undergraded; I'll jump on it.  If I see a coin that is PROPERLY graded; I'll buy it, if the price is feasible.

Once in a lifetime; I see a coin that I can't live without....Then I'll pay MOON MONEY.  But that RARELY happens....Especially, nowadays.  

[RWB]

It's beginning to sound as if few care one way or another - they take whatever is stuffed down their gullets.

[VKurtB]

23 minutes ago, RWB said:

It's beginning to sound as if few care one way or another - they take whatever is stuffed down their gullets.

Isn’t that the flip side of “I have my own standards and know how to grade to please ME”?

[Cat Bath]

I replaced a 66+/CAC with a 65 non-CAC in my registry set ATS.

I'm happy with my decision.

Grading there has jumped the shark. (I couldn't even get a + on my 65 after two re-cons and it is better than 1/2 of the 67's I see)

It's bizzaro-world there...I give up.

[Insider]

Do folks understand  why "any coin worth sending in once is worth sending in again" is true.   It generates the thrill of sending the same coin in several times by the same or multiple owners until gradeflation or something gets it graded higher.  It generates income for the TPGS.  

[MarkFeld]

7 hours ago, Insider said:

Do folks understand  why "any coin worth sending in once is worth sending in again" is true.   It generates the thrill of sending the same coin in several times by the same or multiple owners until gradeflation or something gets it graded higher.  It generates income for the TPGS.  

But often, while the submitter thought the coin was worth sending in once, he/she was mistaken.

[MarkFeld]

On 10/15/2020 at 10:23 AM, Insider said:

I'm not allowed to give likes at this time. 

Roger is correct and has posted the major solution to the "grading mess."  Until coins are graded CORRECTLY** in an independently funded "ivory tower" by folks who DON'T GIVE A DARN about whinny dealers  who have forced the major TPGS to continue to loosen the standards...and until the VALUE of each coin is set by the coin dealers/collectors who buy and sell them, there will ALWAYS be problems.  

BTW, if this ever were to happen, you can say goodbye to CAC.   

** Technical grading is extremely easy so don't give me the "What's correctly?" BS.   YN's can learn to do it in a short time as THEY HAVE NO CLUE of the coin's VALUE!!!!  They grade what they see.

Why could you say goodbye to CAC? There would still be a range of quality within each grade. CAC could still identify the coins they felt merited stickers and many people would still value CAC’s opinion.

 

[VKurtB]

28 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

But often, while the submitter thought the coin was worth sending in once, he/she was mistaken.

Ding! Ding! Ding!  Now for your 25 point bonus question...

[GoldFinger1969]

7 hours ago, Insider said:

Do folks understand  why "any coin worth sending in once is worth sending in again" is true.   It generates the thrill of sending the same coin in several times by the same or multiple owners until gradeflation or something gets it graded higher.  It generates income for the TPGS.  

Is there a fee paid if a coin is submitted but does NOT get re-slabbed and graded (higher) ?

[VKurtB]

Just now, GoldFinger1969 said:

Is there a fee paid if a coin is submitted but does NOT get re-slabbed and graded (higher) ?

Sí, señor.

[GoldFinger1969]

17 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

I replaced a 66+/CAC with a 65 non-CAC in my registry set ATS.  I'm happy with my decision. Grading there has jumped the shark. (I couldn't even get a + on my 65 after two re-cons and it is better than 1/2 of the 67's I see)

It's bizzaro-world there...I give up.

I have seen the Threads and coins that mysteriously went up 2 grades.  I don't like it, and if I had sold a coin for $600 that a few years later got 2 upgrades and sold for $6,000 I'd be pissed, too.

But BY AND LARGE...in the vast majority of cases....within 1-2 numerical grades....the TPGs and the community get it right.

Look, there's (thankfully !!) a limit to how high "grade inflation" can go.  There's no way that an MS63 Saint can be passed off as an MS67.  Maybe an MS64, maybe with luck it makes it to Gem State MS65.  But that's about it.  Maybe more numbers can be bypassed when you go from AU to MS but most of the time the $$$ there are not as large so there's no incentive to gradeflate.

There are problems with the TPGs and gradeflation, nobody can deny it.  But today's hobby IMO would be much much worse had the TPGs never come into existence.

Edited October 18, 2020 by GoldFinger1969

[VKurtB]

9 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

There's no way that an MS63 Saint can be passed off as an MS67.

Be careful of making statements like that. I believe there’s a famous (infamous?) story of a 63 to 68 journey. Not a Saint though. If memory serves, it was a clad Ike dollar.

Edited October 18, 2020 by VKurtB

[GoldFinger1969]

31 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Be careful of making statements like that. I believe there’s a famous (infamous?) story of a 63 to 68 journey. Not a Saint though. If memory serves, it was a clad Ike dollar.

Wow...if that story is on some thread somewhere, I'd be interested in seeing it.

I think I posted here and on CT the story of the Franklin that went from MS65 to MS67 CAC or something like that.  $500 coin to $12,000 coin.

[VKurtB]

25 minutes ago, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wow...if that story is on some thread somewhere, I'd be interested in seeing it.

I think I posted here and on CT the story of the Franklin that went from MS65 to MS67 CAC or something like that.  $500 coin to $12,000 coin.

If memory serves, both the 63 and the 68 grade had knowledgeable people losing their minds (and their lunch). After grading standards for Ike’s settled down, most observers saw it as a 66 or so. 

[Insider]

3 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

Why could you say goodbye to CAC? There would still be a range of quality within each grade. CAC could still identify the coins they felt merited stickers and many people would still value CAC’s opinion.

 

There can always be a "sticker" company.  However, if coins were graded correctly that range would shrink a lot especially if folks that were knowledgeable were doing the grading.

Here is the thing.  If we were to put five of the best graders of Liberty $20 in the country in a room with the strictest ("take it or take it) grading standards and let them decide on a coin's permanent, forever grade (condition of preservation) taking as much time to come to an agreement like MS-63.7.  That would be its grade and only a fool would argue with them.  The market will value the coin.  

Now, we have some top professionals grading that $20 Liberty's in less than 30 seconds each.  A finalizer holds the company line.   They claim they are putting a commercial value on the coin by assigning a grade.  You can get different grades for that exact coin from the same service and you know what, each grade assigned MS-63 or MS-64 can be defended.  

[MarkFeld]

13 minutes ago, Insider said:

There can always be a "sticker" company.  However, if coins were graded correctly that range would shrink a lot especially if folks that were knowledgeable were doing the grading.

Here is the thing.  If we were to put five of the best graders of Liberty $20 in the country in a room with the strictest ("take it or take it) grading standards and let them decide on a coin's permanent, forever grade (condition of preservation) taking as much time to come to an agreement like MS-63.7.  That would be its grade and only a fool would argue with them.  The market will value the coin.  

Now, we have some top professionals grading that $20 Liberty's in less than 30 seconds each.  A finalizer holds the company line.   They claim they are putting a commercial value on the coin by assigning a grade.  You can get different grades for that exact coin from the same service and you know what, each grade assigned MS-63 or MS-64 can be defended.  

Unless each coin were identical, and even if grading were always “perfect”, there would still be low, mid-range and high-end examples within each grade. And CAC would still be relevant, even if not as busy as they are now.

[RWB]

Well, there were faint hopes that by asking a tough question, some might give it some meaningful thought. With a couple of exceptions, that has not happened. So I will toss in the ole sweat soaked boxing towel and head back to the locker room with my robots.

[Insider]

16 hours ago, RWB said:

Well, there were faint hopes that by asking a tough question, some might give it some meaningful thought. With a couple of exceptions, that has not happened. So I will toss in the ole sweat soaked boxing towel and head back to the locker room with my robots.

Before you leave the thread you started, I'd like to read your opinion on your question.  

[Insider]

On 10/14/2020 at 2:12 PM, VKurtB said:

Yes, this. But I'd add that there is far less disagreement about coins in the lower circulated grades, in which wear is pretty much the whole story. It's mostly in the upper grades where the subjective mixing of grading criteria gets serious. But, if you actually read the 7th edition of the "Official ANA yadda yadda", all the modern TPGS criteria are in there, in black and white, even though the photos are now in color. You can't stop reading it after the section of technical grading. There's more, MUCH more. And then there are the live courses, like the one being offered at F.U.N. It's unambiguous what he'll be teaching there. He will NOT be teaching how grading SHOULD BE DONE, unlike many advocates here and other places. He is going to attempt to teach you how to grade like the TPGS firms do, so that when you send coins in, you'll be MUCH better at predicting the grades your coins will get.

This statement caused me to buy the 7th Edition:  "if you actually read the 7th edition of the "Official ANA yadda yadda", all the modern TPGS criteria are in there, in black and white,"

Will you please elaborate exactly where the the NGC or PCGS criteria appears.   I'm unable to find it  , very disappointed , and out some money.    I'm thinking of posting my problem online at GFM to recover the $19.95 + Shipping.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Insider

[zadok]

...thank goodness...

[RWB]

On 10/17/2020 at 10:41 PM, VKurtB said:

Isn’t that the flip side of “I have my own standards and know how to grade to please ME”?

No. It's the flip side of recognized empirical standards, and clear separation of opinion from fact.

[MarkFeld]

Roger, based on the reality and shortcomings of the current grading system - note, I didn’t say “grading standards” - I don’t see how anyone could possibly answer your question in a way that would be satisfactory to you. I get the sense that you weren’t really asking a question, as much as you were making a statement.

Edited October 20, 2020 by MarkFeld

[GoldFinger1969]

2 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

Roger, based on the reality and shortcomings of the current grading system - note, I didn’t say “grading standards” - I don’t see how anyone could possibly answer your question in a way that would be satisfactory to you. I get the sense that you weren’t really asking a question, as much as you were making a statement.

I think we can all agree that the current grading system has its flaws and the TPG's aren't perfect....that said.....we are definitely better off than we were before the TPGs came into being in the 1980's.

Who knows what might have been created or what frauds perpetraded since the Internet came into being the last 20 years without the TPGs ?  You see all the fraud with them....without them ?

Ugghhh..........................