How is it possible to get different MM over another MM? 1 1

[bsshog40]

This was a thread started ATS and the first thing the OP did was put politics in his opening question and the thread is going nowhere and will soon be poofed. Lol But I thought it was a good question. How could a coin get, say a D/S or anything of the like that isn't the same MM. Aren't the MM's done at the separate mints?

[kbbpll]

Roger or somebody will have to correct me, but I'm not aware that during the period when mint marks were punched into working dies, that it was ever done at a branch mint. Philadelphia tightly controlled the making and shipping of dies, including punching the MMs. So scenarios such as D/S I've always believed were that the mint worker just grabs the wrong punch and then corrects it, or possibly the die is returned and reused from a different branch mint. There are a lot of "reserved for future use" in the die destruction records, but I haven't read anything about how exactly these may have been used later.

[RWB]

Yep, kbbpll pretty much said it.

All US coins had their mintmarks applied at the Philadelphia Mint. That is where all dies were made and all mintmarks were punched into working dies. (About 25 years ago the Denver Mint was allowed to open its own die shop, so they now make all their "D" dies, and Philadelphia makes the P, S and W dies.)

There is no documentation about details of overstriking mintmarks, but the general process is well known. The Engraving Department prepared a batch of dies and took all of them through manufacture up to final hardening and tempering. At this point, some were completed for use a Philadelphia - no mintmark - and others were reserved unhardened until an order came for dies for one of the other mints. At that point, a diesinker or assistant selected a letter punch for the specified mint, punched in the mintmark and the die was hardened.

In some instances, the assistant evidently make a single light punch to visually check location and alignment, and then made a second blow to finish the work. Occasionally, he discovered the wrong letter punch was used, or maybe he had selected the wrong letter size. Rather than waste the die (each die cost about $25), he simply used a stronger blow to set the correct letter.

The OP can quote this ATS if desired, although a tiny credit line would be appreciated.

Edited September 27, 2020 by RWB
Fixed typos

[MarkFeld]

8 minutes ago, RWB said:

Yep, kbbpll pretty much said it.

All US coins had their mintmarks applied at the Philadelphia Mint. That is where all dies were made and all mintmarks were punched into working dies. (About 25 years ago the Denver Mint was allowed to open its own die shop, so they now make all their "D" dies, and Philadelphia makes the P, S and W dies.)

There is no documentation about details of overstriking mintmarks, but the process is well known. The Engraving Department prepared a batch of dies and took all of them through manufacture up to final hardening and tempering. At this point, some were completed for use a Philadelphia - no mintmark - and others were reserved unhardened until an order came for die for one of the other mints. At that point, a diesinker or assistant selected a letter punch for the specified mint, punched in the mintmark and the the dies was hardened.

In some instances, the assistant evidently make a single light punch to visually check location and alignment, and then made a second blow to finish the work. Occasionally, he discovered the wrong letter punch was used, or maybe he had selected the wrong letter size. Rather than waste the die (each die cost about $25), he simply used a stronger blow to set the correct letter.

The OP can quote this ATS if desired, although a tiny credit line would be appreciated.

I’m not the OP, but I just posted your remarks on the PCGS forum.

[bsshog40]

Thanks for the info Roger and kbbpll. Thanks for posting that ats Mark. With the way the op ats started that thread, will be lucky if many people see it. Lol 

[RWB]

Thank you, Mark!

PS: I fixed typos in the original, above.

[Henri Charriere]

[To my many detractors who regard me as an ignorant, itinerant troll, one to be dismissed rather  than reckoned with, I present the following transient thought on what I deem to be highly over-rated over-strikes (with one notable exception) sure to leave my unexceptional reputation intact.]

It seems coin collecting, as a hobby, has moved its base of operations to the surgical suites and intensive care units from the brick-and-mortars of yesteryear.

If you crash your car, you can expect a hefty repair bill regardless who is at fault.  If a surgeon leaves a foreign object inside your body, you can sue him for malpractice. When I accompanied my wife to a dentist, we both had to sign legal instruments presumably backed by the force of law leaving his practice entirely blameless should either of us inadvertently contract COVID-19.

Not so numismatics. If a penny, nickel, dime or quarter is damaged or altered in the most insignificant of ways, there is zero likelihood of a lawsuit for malpractice. Instead, we congratulate (criticize or even mock) the owner, depending on the coroner's report.

FINAL COMMENT:  ONLY AN OVERSTRIKE ON A WARTIME NICKEL SHOULD BE VALUED FOR THE STRIKING IMAGE IT PRESENTS.

Everything else is just white noise, IMNSHO.

Postscript:  Instead of making defamatory, and clearly discriminatory admonitions like "don't feed the trolls," how about we all resolve this day going forward to stop patronizing purposeful mistake manufacturers masquerading under the quasi-legal catch-all term "errors?"

[RWB]

?

Quintus -- is there too much hot-Arrius around?

[bsshog40]

27 minutes ago, RWB said:

?

Quintus -- is there too much hot-Arrius around?

Glad I have him blocked!

[Henri Charriere]

Here, sheer folly is exposed in all its wondrous splendor. 

RWB, a real live human being deserving of our utmost respect as a man of letters, sullies his good name by addressing an arbitrary alter-ego much like a chrysalis that has undergone a metamorphosis only to emerge as an unidentifiable papillon.  Common courtesy requires I respond and do so politely with deference.  No problem, that is, until an uninvited interloper shows up on my cyberdoorstep, unannounced, and having no inkling what prompted the exchange with RWB to begin with, blindly lobs a shot over a dead-heading, Liberian-flagged freighter (for all he knows) solely on the strength of another entity's universally accepted integrity.

The very act of ignoring in the absence of knowledge is the epitome of "ignorance" (which I have taken the liberty of substituting for the "barnyard epithet" I would have preferred using which proper breeding suggests would be in poor taste in RWB's august presence).

Postscript:  if a recent exchange of missives between bsshog40 and a few titans of the industry is any indication, his gleeful proclamation that he has blocked QA served only to enhance -- not diminish -- the latter's reputation, immeasurably.

My heartfelt thanks to all parties -- including the Moderators, for a rollicking good time!

[kbbpll]

I fail to understand the need to inject your poison into every forum thread. This thread is about mint marks. Got anything useful to contribute? Paragraph after paragraph of flowery language and it's all drivel. Go find a forum for "people who need attention".

[RWB]

I just checked my latter in the garage. It says it has been a good step latter and has a good reputation - in fact, it said it was recently up for "Ladder-Date Sainthood" for supporting the removal of Leaves of Grass from the house gutters.

Just a bit of humor at Quintus "Hot Arrius'" extended literary style. No offense.

Edited September 28, 2020 by RWB

[Henri Charriere]

4 hours ago, kbbpll said:

I fail to understand the need to inject your poison into every forum thread. This thread is about mint marks. Got anything useful to contribute? Paragraph after paragraph of flowery language and it's all drivel. Go find a forum for "people who need attention".

Well, well, well. If it ain't the "nefarious 'leave me out of this' cabal" crybaby conspiracist!  I applaud you for confirming you continue to follow me however embarrassing that must be to admit in front of the entire NGC numismatic community. What part of the pi-guy's admonition, "Do Not Feed the Trolls!" don't you understand?  [My position on mint mark over-strikes in a nutshell: only the ones on Wartime silver nickels, 1942-1945, count. Period.]

[Morpheus1967]

7 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I applaud you for confirming you continue to follow me however embarrassing that must be to admit in front of the entire NGC numismatic community. 

How is he "following you"?  He is simply reading a thread where he made a very useful contribution.  Whereas you, on the otherhand, continue to abuse your thesaurus.

[Henri Charriere]

3 hours ago, Morpheus1967 said:

How is he "following you"?  He is simply reading a thread where he made a very useful contribution.  Whereas you, on the otherhand, continue to abuse your thesaurus.

His stand-alone comment, and I quote him directly, was:  "Glad I have him blocked!"  Now if you''ve chosen to participate in a childish game of hide-and-seek and cannot refrain from peeking, you're automatically disqualified.  Riding the coattails of another member and rudely interjecting with a baseless comment regarding a conversation you are not privy to is not even eavesdropping.  It's bad manners bordering on moral turpitude of the type that would jettison any hope you may have ever had of passing a Senate confirmation hearing. I don't know what's worse, engaging in pseudo-fraud (claiming under oath you have blocked someone you haven't) or having another equally clueless member cite a footnote made without attribution constitutes a "very useful contribution," -- an argument likely made by counsel to Lori Loughlin to get her daughters into college.

As to the charge of abusing my thesaurus, you are confusing me with Joe Exotic.  I have treated every animal whose care, custody and control I have ever been entrusted with, with the unconditional  love and attention it deserves. This includes a stegosaurus, tyrannasaurus -- and Dino, our colleague VKurtB's prized brontosaurus, when he was obliged to attend to matters requiring his attention at the Royal Mint.

Case dismissed on the merits.  SO ORDERED.  /S/ Q.A.  09.29.2020

[kbbpll]

7 hours ago, Morpheus1967 said:

How is he "following you"?  He is simply reading a thread where he made a very useful contribution.  Whereas you, on the otherhand, continue to abuse your thesaurus.

Yes, I did try to contribute something useful after a couple weeks of not logging in. As I mentioned in another thread, "ignore" doesn't do anything if you don't log in, and I make the mistake of reading. This person follows you around because they got all butt-hurt over something, and can't wait to pounce with more paragraphs of useless blather. If we want to make this forum anything other than Sleepy Hollow, the moderators need to step up and step in. I for one have had enough of this garbage, and will not be returning any time soon.

[Henri Charriere]

48 minutes ago, kbbpll said:

Yes,.... I made the mistake of reading.

 

I for one have had enough of this garbage, and will not be returning any time soon.

"The mistake of reading."  A priceless gem if ever there was one right on up there with a former president's "I am not a crook."

And I am well aware you haven't been around because you missed the donnybrook that quickly descended into fisticuffs with slurs being slung around prompting our colleague, Alex from PA., to literally beg the moderators to extinguish the distinguished venerable VKurtB's explosive thread which began so evenly with an ode to a federal judge, so touching it inspired him to declare he had never been prouder of being a Pennsylvanian.

A thread is not unlike a newspaper, cellphone or television set. You can turn the page, scroll on, or switch channels.  For the "mistake of reading" jewel I am going to grant you a lifetime exemption from review.  Now, go and check out VKurtB's thread on Pennsylvania and the pandemic before the higher-ups expunge it. No hard feelings, buddy!

[GoldFinger1969]

Back to Mint Marks and dates.....Roger's Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle book gives lots of examples of overstrikes and what led to their creation for each year and mint mark for which they occurred.