Isle of Man
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169 posts in this topic

5 minutes ago, Zebo said:

The 1984 was sold. Hopefully I will know for what price soon. Those marks were distracting on it - to bad for a rare coin that should,have been treated better.

To bad, at least the site was legit and you got some information from them.

I'm going to save the photos of this one, should be easy to keep track of with those markings, if it ever pops up again. 

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4 minutes ago, 7.jaguars said:

Did he specifically state no shipping out of UK on the 1984? I have gotten many coins that said that in the listing - I am in DC area.

 

Yes - he has it on his web-site. Only ships to the UK.

good find by Mike, however.

Edited by Zebo
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12 minutes ago, 7.jaguars said:

Did he specifically state no shipping out of UK on the 1984? I have gotten many coins that said that in the listing - I am in DC area.

I've had trouble a couple of times getting sellers to ship internationally (to the U.S.) from the U.K., not sure why.

Shipping from the U.K. to the U.S. seems very expensive when compared to other countries. The Southall book cost me almost $40 to ship it to the U.S., ouch!

Edited by Fenntucky Mike
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I quickly skimmed through the first edition of Pobjoy's encyclopedia to their third edition, I don't believe I'll be gaining any new insight into those coins or processes. A waste of money, but it is a hard cover compared to the paperback second and third editions. Oh well....  

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I always liked the half penny from 71-75, it's my favorite circulating decimal coinage from IOM. I always thought that the Rev design compliment the Obv very well. Just a good looking coin on both sides. Once they stuck a fish on it, meh. I'm only missing the proof platinum 75 to complete a short set from 71 -75 across all types.

Obv).jpg.cb887733c01b0382a1d5ffaa62b84ce3.jpgRev.jpg.52c1f9377e4aa79aa5ec7118a33e7f7e.jpg

 

I've been going through the references I have that include the IOM but nothing new in regards to mintage figures  or previously unmentioned issues. I have come across a few nuggets in regards to mint packaging and just some random blurbs about the IOM and Pobjoy that were new to me. There does seem to be one common thread through these books and that is Pobjoy is a pain in everyone's rear and issued to many coin designs, kind of cracks me up. I agree with that statement in general but that is one of the things that makes this fun, the fact that Pobjoy wasn't consistent (leading to many varieties and issues), made mistakes and kept awful records. I looked through my books and I did not have a Spinks catalog, so I ordered the latest edition due out in mid October. Here's the current group I'm working off of, with IOM references in them. You can cross these off your list of references to get for new info on IOM sovereigns. 

IMG_0001.JPG.c7300caf748e34ba636b07615e266ea0.JPG

 

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2 hours ago, 7.jaguars said:

Yea, well good try in any case.   Hey, I just noticed that NGC have apparently graded a single 1978 2 sovs. coin in uncirculated (1978A)....

I wonder if they are confused or there really are 1978 BUs out there. 

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2 hours ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

I always liked the half penny from 71-75, it's my favorite circulating decimal coinage from IOM. I always thought that the Rev design compliment the Obv very well. Just a good looking coin on both sides. Once they stuck a fish on it, meh. I'm only missing the proof platinum 75 to complete a short set from 71 -75 across all types.

Obv).jpg.cb887733c01b0382a1d5ffaa62b84ce3.jpgRev.jpg.52c1f9377e4aa79aa5ec7118a33e7f7e.jpg

 

I've been going through the references I have that include the IOM but nothing new in regards to mintage figures  or previously unmentioned issues. I have come across a few nuggets in regards to mint packaging and just some random blurbs about the IOM and Pobjoy that were new to me. There does seem to be one common thread through these books and that is Pobjoy is a pain in everyone's rear and issued to many coin designs, kind of cracks me up. I agree with that statement in general but that is one of the things that makes this fun, the fact that Pobjoy wasn't consistent (leading to many varieties and issues), made mistakes and kept awful records. I looked through my books and I did not have a Spinks catalog, so I ordered the latest edition due out in mid October. Here's the current group I'm working off of, with IOM references in them. You can cross these off your list of references to get for new info on IOM sovereigns. 

IMG_0001.JPG.c7300caf748e34ba636b07615e266ea0.JPG

 

I have the half penny as well, but not as nice as yours. 

It seems as if they tried to keep good records when they started publishing the encyclopedias, but even those were lacking. Much better than nothing - sure wished they kept on with it and improved it a little along the way.

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On 9/25/2020 at 6:02 PM, Zebo said:

The 1984 was sold. Hopefully I will know for what price soon. Those marks were distracting on it - to bad for a rare coin that should,have been treated better.

The coin was sold for GBP 550 earlier in 2020. Just as background, thought you might like to know how such a rare coin came into my possession. It was not actually bought as a coin, it was bought as a "buy it now or best offer" off eBay as part of a 9 carat gold gate bracelet in 2010, listed solely as a "half sovereign gold bracelet". The seller's image was not the best but it was clear to me that it was not a standard "Viking" coin but it was hard for me to believe it might be one of the rare 1984 coins, so I asked the seller for an image but she could only tell me what it looked like and confirmed the date. That confirmed my thoughts so I made an offer of just over GBP 100 (!) on the bracelet which was accepted. As you can imagine, when it arrived, I was more than happy to see that the coin was as I had thought and I could scarcely believe my luck. That coin was quickly replaced with a standard half sovereign to sell the bracelet on at a profit whilst keeping the 1984 for my collection. Unfortunately, the damage on the coin was there when I received it and obviously as a consequence of being worn around someone's wrist, which is why I advertised it as in "circulated" condition.

I know that it may sound sacrilegious  to mention here but as I have gotten older, my mind has moved to more existential matters, including shifting all the special gold coins into bullion, but that is what I have felt the need to do because in the end, I need to live and that's why I started in the first place. For the IoM coin, the offer price was too good for me to refuse as it allowed me to buy almost 4 times the amount of gold that it contained.

IoM gold coins have designs that are quite popular. Two in particular seem to sell well - the Cats and the Angels - so I snap them up if I see them at a decent price. Because they range in size from 1/25th upwards (and I believe that Pobjoy may have started producing 1/40th coins, but I have not bothered to investigate), they are accessible to all levels of buyer, even as the gold price has taken off again and allow a profit to be made to fund the purchase of bullion.

I've attached a few of the images that I take to reference my stock, so not perfect but they do the job for general administration. In the coin shot with the circulated coin, that reference for size is a British £1 coin of the type that was recently withdrawn from circulation, just to show how small and intricate the coins can be. (The ones that I have put here are mostly all sold.)

Just want to add a few reasons why a lot of UK buyers don't sell to US. For me personally as a private seller it's because:

1) Royal Mail tracking stops as the package goes out of EU, so cannot guarantee a signature when delivered - leaves seller open to abuse as cannot prove it ever got there;

2) Scare stories about USPS (and other courier) delivery people just leaving the packages on doorsteps if addressee was not at home (seems more so now that Covid is with us);

3) It actually says in (all?) courier contracts that gold is not covered for loss and may not be sent (check the small print);

4) Wary about filling in a customs or courier declaration that says "here's a package of gold, please put a small slit in it with a knife and help yourself" (There are no customs declarations to be filled in between EU member states);

5) Payment: difficult to arrange payment from US customers. They often want to use PayPal, but PayPal explicitly excludes gold from its seller protection programme (but keeps very quiet about doing so). EU countries have free transfer rules, so cheap and easy to use the bank for a next day transfer);

6) Distance selling can be disappointing because a buyer will often have an expectation that doesn't actually match reality, but if the item is in US and needs to be repatriated, then there is simply too much work to be done and too many risks able to present themselves.

I do not totally exclude sending to US, but would only do so when I receive a signed waiver stating that the buyer will arrange collection and accept full responsibility for the package, no matter what the issue, once I have been paid by bank transfer (only) and given it to the courier and got a signed slip.

Larger companies may not see these things as a big deal, but as a private, ageing individual, I just want peace, simplicity, reassurance and security when I sell my modest savings.

Thank you for letting me interject into the thread.

 

IoM Fifth Crown Cats 2003 0.2 oz Au Reverse.JPG

IoM Fifth Crown Cats 2004 0.2 oz Au Reverse.JPG

IoM Fifth Crown Cats 2006 0.2 oz Au Reverse.JPG

IoM KM 138 Slabbed Tenth Angel 1984 PF 70 Ultra Cameo 0.1 oz Au (Detail).JPG

100_2329.JPG

Edited by misterbrillo
Add images and correct spelling.
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1 hour ago, misterbrillo said:

The coin was sold for GBP 550 earlier in 2020. Just as background, thought you might like to know how such a rare coin came into my possession. It was not actually bought as a coin, it was bought as a "buy it now or best offer" off eBay as part of a 9 carat gold gate bracelet in 2010, listed solely as a "half sovereign gold bracelet". The seller's image was not the best but it was clear to me that it was not a standard "Viking" coin but it was hard for me to believe it might be one of the rare 1984 coins, so I asked the seller for an image but she could only tell me what it looked like and confirmed the date. That confirmed my thoughts so I made an offer of just over GBP 100 (!) on the bracelet which was accepted. As you can imagine, when it arrived, I was more than happy to see that the coin was as I had thought and I could scarcely believe my luck. That coin was quickly replaced with a standard half sovereign to sell the bracelet on at a profit whilst keeping the 1984 for my collection. Unfortunately, the damage on the coin was there when I received it and obviously as a consequence of being worn around someone's wrist, which is why I advertised it as in "circulated" condition.

I know that it may sound sacrilegious  to mention here but as I have gotten older, my mind has moved to more existential matters, including shifting all the special gold coins into bullion, but that is what I have felt the need to do because in the end, I need to live and that's why I started in the first place. For the IoM coin, the offer price was too good for me to refuse as it allowed me to buy almost 4 times the amount of gold that it contained.

IoM gold coins have designs that are quite popular. Two in particular seem to sell well - the Cats and the Angels - so I snap them up if I see them at a decent price. Because they range in size from 1/25th upwards (and I believe that Pobjoy may have started producing 1/40th coins, but I have not bothered to investigate), they are accessible to all levels of buyer, even as the gold price has taken off again and allow a profit to be made to fund the purchase of bullion.

I've attached a few of the images that I take to reference my stock, so not perfect but they do the job for general administration. In the coin shot with the circulated coin, that reference for size is a British £1 coin of the type that was recently withdrawn from circulation, just to show how small and intricate the coins can be. (The ones that I have put here are mostly all sold.)

Just want to add a few reasons why a lot of UK buyers don't sell to US. For me personally as a private seller it's because:

1) Royal Mail tracking stops as the package goes out of EU, so cannot guarantee a signature when delivered - leaves seller open to abuse as cannot prove it ever got there;

2) Scare stories about USPS (and other courier) delivery people just leaving the packages on doorsteps if addressee was not at home (seems more so now that Covid is with us);

3) It actually says in (all?) courier contracts that gold is not covered for loss and may not be sent (check the small print);

4) Wary about filling in a customs or courier declaration that says "here's a package of gold, please put a small slit in it with a knife and help yourself" (There are no customs declarations to be filled in between EU member states);

5) Payment: difficult to arrange payment from US customers. They often want to use PayPal, but PayPal explicitly excludes gold from its seller protection programme (but keeps very quiet about doing so). EU countries have free transfer rules, so cheap and easy to use the bank for a next day transfer);

6) Distance selling can be disappointing because a buyer will often have an expectation that doesn't actually match reality, but if the item is in US and needs to be repatriated, then there is simply too much work to be done and too many risks able to present themselves.

I do not totally exclude sending to US, but would only do so when I receive a signed waiver stating that the buyer will arrange collection and accept full responsibility for the package, no matter what the issue, once I have been paid by bank transfer (only) and given it to the courier and got a signed slip.

Larger companies may not see these things as a big deal, but as a private, ageing individual, I just want peace, simplicity, reassurance and security when I sell my modest savings.

Thank you for letting me interject into the thread.

No, Thank You.

This just went from a very good thread to a great thread. Being able to contact or at least present questions to this wide open space called the internet and getting responses, first hand accounts and information. Amazing! Thanks again for sharing.

@misterbrillo Hope you stick around. If you ever come across some early 90's 1/10 IoM gold angels (proof) keep me in mind, we're going to have to work on that shipping to the U.S. thing. ;) By the way you wouldn't happen to have any mintage figures from Pobjoy, would you? Or a reference we haven't checked? (shot in the dark)

@Zebo Like I said great thread! I imagine you had something to do with coaxing MrB out of the woodwork as well.

 

Edited by Fenntucky Mike
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I have bought and sold several gold coins over the years from and to the UK, and without problems. How do DNW, Baldwin, Spink do such on a regular with no problems that I have heard of or experienced. 

I got tired of looking at UK predecimal listings on Ebay.uk but before I did, had an experience with buying an unlisted and undiscovered 1838 milled edge pattern proof sovereign for about 1/8 value - now worth multiples of that. But no problems with that and quite a few other Brit gold pieces without any problems. So perhaps somewhere there is a solution to sales????

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2 hours ago, misterbrillo said:

 

iom1984half.JPG

Thank you Misterbrillo for the story about the 1984. It adds a lot to the conversation here. I hope you stick around as we need more UK members joining in with your thoughts and opinions. Your awareness of this coin did you well. I was thrilled when I obtained mine. Also thank you for telling me the selling price when I contacted you. I don't think too many people would have done that. 

If I may ask - how did you determine the rarity of this coin? Was it from Southall's or some other book? Also - are you in or have you visited the Isle of Man? Just curious.

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On 9/20/2020 at 4:08 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Great coins!

Only problem with collecting the proofs is that I would need the 1981 to complete the set. 

674363734_1981IOMHalfSovereign.thumb.jpg.d902679c68d8b079cd918dbc5781cbdc.jpg

I may have to leave that slot blank.

Are you looking to acquire a full or half version of this coin?

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21 hours ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

No, Thank You.

This just went from a very good thread to a great thread. Being able to contact or at least present questions to this wide open space called the internet and getting responses, first hand accounts and information. Amazing! Thanks again for sharing.

@misterbrillo Hope you stick around. If you ever come across some early 90's 1/10 IoM gold angels (proof) keep me in mind, we're going to have to work on that shipping to the U.S. thing. ;) By the way you wouldn't happen to have any mintage figures from Pobjoy, would you? Or a reference we haven't checked? (shot in the dark)

@Zebo Like I said great thread! I imagine you had something to do with coaxing MrB out of the woodwork as well.

 

Thank you for your kind words, gentlemen. I am kept quite busy in my professional work, but will dip in as and when.

I think you know full well how difficult it is to get any sensible answers out of Pobjoy Mint so yes, that's a shot in the dark, I'm afraid, LOL! 

I have very few IoM coins now and most other coins that I have are bullion grade, put away for retirement. I did have a graded 1984 1/10th proof angel, but sold it a while ago and used the money to buy about three times as much gold as contained in that coin.

IoM KM 138 Slabbed Tenth Angel 1984 PF 70 Ultra Cameo 0.1 oz Au.JPG

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20 hours ago, Zebo said:

Thank you Misterbrillo for the story about the 1984. It adds a lot to the conversation here. I hope you stick around as we need more UK members joining in with your thoughts and opinions. Your awareness of this coin did you well. I was thrilled when I obtained mine. Also thank you for telling me the selling price when I contacted you. I don't think too many people would have done that. 

If I may ask - how did you determine the rarity of this coin? Was it from Southall's or some other book? Also - are you in or have you visited the Isle of Man? Just curious.

I determined rarity from Krause, Zebo - low mintage quoted so I knew that I had done well.

 

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This has been a welcomed and entertaining distraction from my primary collection. There are many different themes that you can collect with IOM coinage. We've discussed a couple of different sets in this thread - mainly collected by year. Do you have any other collections that you put together grouped by theme or some other criteria?

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1 hour ago, misterbrillo said:

Are you looking to acquire a full or half version of this coin?

Hah, I posted that in jest, meaning if I was to try and acquire proof half sovereigns I would feel compelled get that coin. That coin, in my opinion, being the most unattractive coin of the series. Thanks for asking though.

I'm looking to acquire a proof half sovereign, as of right now I have none. I would be looking to start with sovereigns having the Viking design on the reverse. I'm not in any rush, in fact I was kind of waiting to see if gold would drop back down a little bit but if a proof half sovereign was available at the right price I would jump at the chance.

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On 9/25/2020 at 9:58 AM, Zebo said:

The encyclopedia has a couple of gems in it. It's incomplete as usual, but adds some that is not in Southall's book.

Got the 79' edition yesterday and read through it last night, I liked it a lot. A nice addition to the library. I had been looking at this book for awhile and was just looking for a reason to get it, thanks.

LOL, I feel like I see this guy and his stamping press in every IoM reference book I see. I'm surprised Southall used them as well, I guess if it ain't broke don't fix it.

604246721_Untitled.png.24042d609c86479506ef6cde110b876b.png

Pssst. They say he is still at Pobjoy living in the basement and burning all documentation on the mintage figures in the furnace. The entire building runs on the heat generated by destroyed documents. 

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10 minutes ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

Got the 79' edition yesterday and read through it last night, I liked it a lot. A nice addition to the library. I had been looking at this book for awhile and was just looking for a reason to get it, thanks.

LOL, I feel like I see this guy and his stamping press in every IoM reference book I see. I'm surprised Southall used them as well, I guess if it ain't broke don't fix it.

604246721_Untitled.png.24042d609c86479506ef6cde110b876b.png

Pssst. They say he is still at Pobjoy living in the basement and burning all documentation on the mintage figures in the furnace. The entire building runs on the heat generated by destroyed documents. 

The enclylopedia adds some good information - although you have to search for it at times, that isn't covered in the Southhall book. I found it a good resource. Glad you picked one up.

I think we need to track this guy (photo) down and interrogate him. :roflmao:maybe he will tell of the shenanigans that occurred at Pobjoy over the years. I have been in correspondence with the Royal Miny regarding heir IOM offerings - they were a bit sketchy with their comments, but at least they had records. I've also correspond with the Tower mint that took over minting IOM circulated and NCLT coins. Even the Royal Mint in Canada minted a special issue for the IOM. That coin has an interesting story.

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5 hours ago, Fenntucky Mike said:

Hah, I posted that in jest, meaning if I was to try and acquire proof half sovereigns I would feel compelled get that coin. That coin, in my opinion, being the most unattractive coin of the series. Thanks for asking though.

I'm looking to acquire a proof half sovereign, as of right now I have none. I would be looking to start with sovereigns having the Viking design on the reverse. I'm not in any rush, in fact I was kind of waiting to see if gold would drop back down a little bit but if a proof half sovereign was available at the right price I would jump at the chance.

Ha, thought you were serious - was getting ready to offer you a half version that I have kicking around. There are many good proof halves available - as you say, it's down to the price of gold in the end. Good luck with that, it will come good in the end. 

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11 hours ago, 7.jaguars said:

I know this is getting off track a bit. Would you have the 1978 1/2 and 1 sov. viking in proof, and do you have any of the 1983 viking sovs from 1/2 to 5?

Sorry old chap, I'm afraid not. The irony is that due to favourable tax advantages related to British Sovereigns which don't apply to Manx versions, anytime that I got a standard IoM Viking Sovereign in my hand in the past, I always endeavoured to change it into a British Sovereign as quickly as possible, so apart from a couple of special issues, I don't have Manx gold to hand.

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30 minutes ago, misterbrillo said:

Sorry old chap, I'm afraid not. The irony is that due to favourable tax advantages related to British Sovereigns which don't apply to Manx versions, anytime that I got a standard IoM Viking Sovereign in my hand in the past, I always endeavoured to change it into a British Sovereign as quickly as possible, so apart from a couple of special issues, I don't have Manx gold to hand.

I'll have to start a thread on British Sovereigns - including those minted in Australia, Canada, India and South Africa. Fascinating history with so many ways to collect. Three good articles in the August edition of Coin News (a couple are continuing series). 

Back to the IoM sovereigns - a couple of years are hard to find. I've been waiting many years for a couple of them to appear. 

 

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13 minutes ago, 7.jaguars said:

I was sad retrospectively to not have gotten a couple of the 5 sovs....They are crazy expensive, even ones like the 1974.

Which sovs do you need?

For half sovs - 1982

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