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Indian Head Half and Quarter Eagle Coins
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91 posts in this topic

25 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

They, and by extension a considerable portion of U.K. coin collectors, are not fans of slabbed coins, as a rule. At Bloomsbury, there were quite few slabs at the tables, especially by comparison to over here. But it figures. At Chards, I challenge anyone to find an AU coin. It goes directly from XF to Unc.  Traditional British grading standards. Spink's doesn't recognize AU either.

Even CNG, located in London, England and Lancaster, Pennsylvania, only does slabs because their U.S. customers "can't grade and need them".

Speaking of slabs, where could I go to have my Indian Head coins authenticated as contemporary originals without having them slabbed? I’m more interested in having them confirmed as 100% authentic originals than I am in their relative grades. They’re all in lovely condition. Regardless of whether they are VF or MS, they are all very much enjoyable to me. They are all the correct weights, dimensions and all of the details are there, but I would like a professional opinion too. I have bought two from very reputable dealers, but I would like to have them checked out for myself. Any ideas where I could have this done without having to have them entombed in plastic slabs?

Edited by DuncanWylieWilson
Misspelling.
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1 minute ago, DuncanWylieWilson said:

Speaking of slabs, where could I go to have my Indian Head coins authenticated as contemporary originals without having them slabbed? I’m more interested in having them confirmed as 100% authentic originals than I am in their relative grades. They’re all in lovely condition. Regardless of whether they are VF or MS, they are all very much enjoyable to me. They are all the correct weights, dimensions and all of the details are their, but I would like a professional opinion too. I have bought two from very reputable dealers, but I would like to have them checked out for myself. Any ideas where I could have this done without having to have them entombed in plastic slabs?

I do not know, but there is a Canadian firm that does grading and places them in flips. The difficulty is proving the coins examined are the coins present.

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Just now, VKurtB said:

I do not know, but there is a Canadian firm that does grading and places them in flips. The difficulty is proving the coins examined are the coins present.

The only foolproof way is having them slabbed, but I’m still not too keen on that. I like taking my lovely coins out every so often to compare and contrast with other coins and quality reference books. There are just so many really high quality counterfeits out there that it can be a bit unnerving - all part of the game I suppose!

Having them authenticated as originals but not graded would just be for myself. I have no intention of ever selling my beloved Indians!

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4 minutes ago, DuncanWylieWilson said:

The only foolproof way is having them slabbed, but I’m still not too keen on that. I like taking my lovely coins out every so often to compare and contrast with other coins and quality reference books. There are just so many really high quality counterfeits out there that it can be a bit unnerving - all part of the game I suppose!

Having them authenticated as originals but not graded would just be for myself. I have no intention of ever selling my beloved Indians!

True fact: I actually bought some semi-key U.S. coins at the Bloomsbury Coin Fair (Dec. 2019), and they were all "raw", no slabs. I also snagged some velour-lined wooden trays for my Abafil of Milan case there.

Edited by VKurtB
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2 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

True fact: I actually bought some semi-key U.S. coins at the Bloomsbury Coin Fair (Dec. 2019), and they were all "raw", no slabs. I also snagged some velour-lined wooden trays for my Abafil of Milan case there.

I assume you were pretty confident that they were authentic! There’s also a level of trust instilled in the vendor, though some may consider that blissful naivety! 😂

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1 minute ago, DuncanWylieWilson said:

I assume you were pretty confident that they were authentic! There’s also a level of trust instilled in the vendor, though some may consider that blissful naivety! 😂

Before I buy any tougher raw coin that's on my list, I consult my database of diagnostics.

Edited by VKurtB
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3 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

Before I buy any tougher raw coin that's on my list, I consult my database of diagnostics.

Ah, so you go in well armed and well informed! If only our politicians would do the same! I’ve got my eye on a 1911-S Indian Head half eagle online. It’s in the UK. Most of these coins are, unsurprisingly, in the United States. Again, it’s a raw coin, but the photos are good and it’s looking great!

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4 minutes ago, DuncanWylieWilson said:

Ah, so you go in well armed and well informed! If only our politicians would do the same! I’ve got my eye on a 1911-S Indian Head half eagle online. It’s in the UK. Most of these coins are, unsurprisingly, in the United States. Again, it’s a raw coin, but the photos are good and it’s looking great!

I think you'll find that a good many U.S. gold coins not melted in the 1930's spent considerable time "across the pond". Most of what is now here, came back from overseas. Regarding being prepared, sometimes I run into things I never would expect to see and I have to walk away if I don't have access to my notes. On this occasion, I had an iPad full of notes.

Edited by VKurtB
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On 9/17/2020 at 9:10 PM, VKurtB said:

I think you'll find that a good many U.S. gold coins not melted in the 1930's spent considerable time "across the pond". Most of what is now here, came back from overseas. Regarding being prepared, sometimes I run into things I never would expect to see and I have to walk away if I don't have access to my notes. On this occasion, I had an iPad full of notes.

It is always good to be prepared. Just a shame it isn't always possible. Once question I haven't asked is just how much detail can counterfeit strikes replicate? I have a digital magnifier and when comparing the fine details of my 1913 Indian Head half eagle to NGC-photographed examples, the details are absolutely and unequivocal 1:1! Also, I have read that common counterfeits of the 1913 Indian Head half eagle show tool marks around the 3 in the date 1913, but it doesn't always seem possible to distinguish a light tool mark from a mark obtained through circulation and wear and tear.

For those of you who are interested, I have attached two highly magnified pictures of two important part of my 1913 Indian Head half eagle. The 'zigzag' details in the Indian head dress are absolutely identical to well-photographed examples online.

1667421405_1913Half(DM2).png.9995b8a21ebd71040210dfaab318fb4f.png1167209563_1913Half(DM1).png.edfed01aa35afed49420dd77909a7781.png

 

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1 hour ago, Zebo said:

I like the magifier - what are you using?

Believe it or not, but I’m using a generic X1600 Chinese digital magnifier. Come in all shapes and sizes, but all much alike! If you’re in the UK it will cost you £14.99 and if you’re in the US it will cost you close to £20.

UK Digital Magnifier: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333695349188

US Digital Magnifier: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1600X-Digital-Zoom-Microscope-USB-Handheld-Desktop-Magnifier-8-LED-with-Stand-Y/353160835649?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item523a06b241:g:-WIAAOSwnelfV3Lk

This digital magnifier has eight built-in LED lights to illuminate the surface for easy of analysis. Intensity of the light can be easily changed via a wheel on the cable. You download a very simple software following the instructions provided in the box and it enables you to record and take HD pictures of your magnifications. Fantastic tool at a fantastic price.

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2 hours ago, DuncanWylieWilson said:

Believe it or not, but I’m using a generic X1600 Chinese digital magnifier. Come in all shapes and sizes, but all much alike! If you’re in the UK it will cost you £14.99 and if you’re in the US it will cost you close to £20.

UK Digital Magnifier: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/333695349188

US Digital Magnifier: https://www.ebay.com/itm/1600X-Digital-Zoom-Microscope-USB-Handheld-Desktop-Magnifier-8-LED-with-Stand-Y/353160835649?_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item523a06b241:g:-WIAAOSwnelfV3Lk

This digital magnifier has eight built-in LED lights to illuminate the surface for easy of analysis. Intensity of the light can be easily changed via a wheel on the cable. You download a very simple software following the instructions provided in the box and it enables you to record and take HD pictures of your magnifications. Fantastic tool at a fantastic price.

[To think I, a rank amateur with an antique 30-power loupe was castigated and virtually disemboweled by a highly-respected, universally admired, regular contributor and a seasoned veteran to this Forum who glosses over the use of -- get a load of this! -- a generic X-1600 Chinese digital magnifier with eight built-in lights.  

Will wonders never cease?

Edited by Quintus Arrius
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Postscript...  I wonder what those guys who ferociously debated the pros and cons of incandecence vs. fluorescents have to say about this right about now?  One thing you can say about coin collecting, if you have the colossal nerve to hint at something totally unscientific like mere "personal preference" you will be accorded high billing on someone's ignore list.  They won't "block" you, they will simply pretend you never existed citing obscure historical Pharoahs, pylons and obelisks. Never mind Herostratus, a name that lives on in infamy was similarly stricken by official decree, enjoys a position on a Top Ten Set Registry as maintained by no less a recognized authority than NGC.

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20 hours ago, DuncanWylieWilson said:

Possible tool marks around the start of the arrow stack and above the large 2 in the 2 1/2 denomination, or damage sustained through circulation?

221422083_1914Quarter(DM4).png.1e5387500bc93f969024a0ddb13b8550.png212138782_1914Quarter(DM3).png.550bf6ec6ab09dfef3cb13e4a442997d.png

I have to dissent from the opinion expressed above about this magnification. I see lots of things, not all of which are actually there. I see digital sharpening artifacts all over these pictures, and jpeg compression artifacts too. If you like this, have at it, and by all means enjoy it. It is sooooo not my cuppa tea, though. My scope is optical, and my Sony alpha6000 shoots in raw format as well as jpeg. The "diff" is night and day.

Edited by VKurtB
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2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

I have to dissent from the opinion expressed above about this magnification. I see lots of things, not all of which are actually there. I see digital sharpening artifacts all over these pictures, and jpeg compression artifacts too. If you like this, have at it, and by all means enjoy it. It is sooooo not my cuppa tea, though. My scope is optical, and my Sony alpha6000 shoots in raw format as well as jpeg. The "diff" is night and day.

Can't really fault your opinion here. I was just doing my best to highlight what I think to be informative details - even if they are just contact marks. I know for sure that my cheap little Chinese digital magnifier won't compare with something even just a little more advanced, but it has done the trick with a couple of the details I have been looking for. At the end of the day, it was less than $20. Will probably invest in something much more substantial long term.

Thank you for your thoughts.

On the plus side, I have now had a good few opinions from a range of people and the general conclusion is that all three of the coins I have posted here are genuine. Showed the detailed pictures to a specialist whom I buy from and he has no issue with any of them - albeit they're not all in the best of condition.

It has been advised that I should not get the 1914 Indian Head quarter eagle slabbed as it won't get straight grading due to the damage above and interfering with the 2 1/2 denomination. Still a nice coin though.

Received a 1908-D Indian Head half eagle today and expecting delivery of a 1914-D Indian Head quarter eagle over the next week or so. Here are some pictures of my 1908-D Indian Head half eagle for those who are interested...

IMG_9896.thumb.jpeg.2d3d5c4d089db70a4df441a249064d6b.jpegIMG_9888.thumb.jpeg.d60262e50fcc81b76491cf96f0b9a183.jpeg

IMG_9888.jpeg

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51 minutes ago, DuncanWylieWilson said:

Can't really fault your opinion here. I was just doing my best to highlight what I think to be informative details - even if they are just contact marks. I know for sure that my cheap little Chinese digital magnifier won't compare with something even just a little more advanced, but it has done the trick with a couple of the details I have been looking for. At the end of the day, it was less than $20. Will probably invest in something much more substantial long term.

Thank you for your thoughts.

On the plus side, I have now had a good few opinions from a range of people and the general conclusion is that all three of the coins I have posted here are genuine. Showed the detailed pictures to a specialist whom I buy from and he has no issue with any of them - albeit they're not all in the best of condition.

It has been advised that I should not get the 1914 Indian Head quarter eagle slabbed as it won't get straight grading due to the damage above and interfering with the 2 1/2 denomination. Still a nice coin though.

Received a 1908-D Indian Head half eagle today and expecting delivery of a 1914-D Indian Head quarter eagle over the next week or so. Here are some pictures of my 1908-D Indian Head half eagle for those who are interested...

IMG_9896.thumb.jpeg.2d3d5c4d089db70a4df441a249064d6b.jpegIMG_9888.thumb.jpeg.d60262e50fcc81b76491cf96f0b9a183.jpeg

IMG_9888.jpeg

Absolutely! Everyone should use whatever tools work for them. As a 30+ year "film guy", I'm hypersensitive to the "stuff" that digital imaging has brought us. It's the "circle of life". Someday not that far into the future, us "film guys" will all be gone. Until then, we still drag our Leica M3's and Canon F-1's and Nikon F3's out and shoot film when we get nostalgic. Occasionally a 4x5 view camera too.

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On 9/15/2020 at 8:48 PM, RWB said:

Your 1913 half eagle shows why the Mint and Treasury disliked this design so much. With no rim to protect the design and field, bumps and other marks degraded appearance very quickly. The coins also lost metal faster than the older designs. Eventually this led to discontinuance of the quarter eagle.

If a rim is a protective device, why did the Quarter, Half, and Eagle coins not have rims ?  Saints and Liberty's did.

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On 11/21/2022 at 10:56 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If a rim is a protective device, why did the Quarter, Half, and Eagle coins not have rims ?  Saints and Liberty's did.

I am going to guess the incuse design must have played some part in this. And if the edge had reeds, they were considered fit for duty.

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On 9/22/2020 at 4:29 PM, VKurtB said:

....Until then, we still drag our Leica M3's and Canon F-1's and Nikon F3's out and shoot film when we get nostalgic. Occasionally a 4x5 view camera too.

Some late-nite frivolity...

Q.A.:  And don't forget the M-1's, Sherman's, M-16's, .45's, rpg's, surface-to-air----

🐓:  ----He's talking about shooting film, Q! ...

Q.A.:  Film? ... Never mind...   :facepalm:

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On 11/21/2022 at 10:56 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

If a rim is a protective device, why did the Quarter, Half, and Eagle coins not have rims ?  Saints and Liberty's did.

Eagles had rims, except for the small issue with knife rims (i.e., field curving up to the edge.

The uncuse design on QE and HE was the reason there was no rim. President Roosevelt approved this aberration of common sense on assurances from Sturgis Bigelow that it would wear better, so that's what was made.

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On 11/21/2022 at 11:39 PM, RWB said:

Eagles had rims, except for the small issue with knife rims (i.e., field curving up to the edge....

Knife rims?  Try as I might, I cannot envision my made-up term, "High Wires," gaining widespread acceptance in the numismatic community.  :whistle:

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On 11/21/2022 at 10:49 PM, Sandon said:

@GoldFinger1969  @Quintus ArriusThe Pratt Indian head quarter eagle and half eagle designs weren't really "incuse" because the devices and stars were struck up, albeit within a surrounding recessed area.  

Thank you for posting this. I was going to mention a while back on another thread that these designs were not actually "incuse", (although they have been called that for as long as I can remember) but I could not remember what the actual name was. Do you know what this type of relief is called? "Lowered relief," maybe?

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On 11/22/2022 at 10:26 AM, Just Bob said:

Thank you for posting this. I was going to mention a while back on another thread that these designs were not actually "incuse", (although they have been called that for as long as I can remember) but I could not remember what the actual name was. Do you know what this type of relief is called? "Lowered relief," maybe?

The correct art term is "sunk relief." Ancient Egyptian sculptors use it a lot in tomb decoration. They smoothed a wall with plaster-like material, then cut relief into the wall and added colors. Bela Pratt did much the same thing. It is effective for larger areas, but awkward for details such as stars and inscriptions.

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