Another new book - Saudi Gold - Draft cover design
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58 posts in this topic

16 minutes ago, Insider said:

Thanks, so far I've come up empty on the Newman Portal.  :(  I'll wait for the footnote in your book.  :)

Sorry. the correct source is: John M. Kleeberg, How the West was Faked: False Western Gold Bars and other Forgeries. 47. The copy I used was in the Newman papers.

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47 minutes ago, Insider said:

Page #47?

Yes. Sorry. I forget that footnote abbreviation style can be confusing.

Edited by RWB
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X. The Saudi Arabian 4 dinar gold discs.

Genuine Saudi Arabian gold discs exist in 1 dinar and 4 dinar denominations They were struck by the Philadelphia Mint to pay petroleum royalties in gold at the time when the usual currency, British sovereigns, was scarce. The 4 dinar discs are rare. In 1958 they suddenly became abundant.  Careful study of the new 4 dinar discs, however, showed that they were forgeries: unlike genuine pieces that had a provenance back into the early 1950s, they did not have stippling within the opening of the P and D of “PHILADELPHIA “ (Boosel 1959). These pieces are mentioned here because they come from the same source as the western gold bars, the Mexican gold bars, the Tubac ingot, the “Franklin Hoard” USAOG pieces, and the false counterstamps. 

Kleeberg p. 47

 

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20 hours ago, Nouzillet said:

X. The Saudi Arabian 4 dinar gold discs.

Genuine Saudi Arabian gold discs exist in 1 dinar and 4 dinar denominations They were struck by the Philadelphia Mint to pay petroleum royalties in gold at the time when the usual currency, British sovereigns, was scarce. The 4 dinar discs are rare. In 1958 they suddenly became abundant.  Careful study of the new 4 dinar discs, however, showed that they were forgeries: unlike genuine pieces that had a provenance back into the early 1950s, they did not have stippling within the opening of the P and D of “PHILADELPHIA “ (Boosel 1959). These pieces are mentioned here because they come from the same source as the western gold bars, the Mexican gold bars, the Tubac ingot, the “Franklin Hoard” USAOG pieces, and the false counterstamps. 

Kleeberg p. 47

 

Interesting.   At this time, I'm under the impression that this anomaly is due to over polishing the dies in that area.  You see, in the 1950's, 1960's, and early 1970's, many of the noted professional numismatists were not worth much as coin authenticators!  I have one of these (fake?) pieces and three more from two other dies.  I sold this piece to a dealer in 1970 and it was returned as a counterfeit.  Now, I know what the dealer based his opinion on!  This piece appears to be struck with the 1P die so I'm glad it was returned.  

I believe my Saudi piece is genuine because (I own it :roflmao:) it is "mint quality."  Unlike the extremely deceptive USAOG coins Ford was involved with that (Kleeberg/Boosel?) were made at the same time period.     

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As noted earlier, we don't seem to have any clearly original pieces for either 1 sovereign or 4 sovereign discs. We know that some of the lettering was cut with a small commercial pantograph, and there might be remnants in the sides of letters. But, plastic holders prevent clear viewing and examination of this detail.

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Further, if we put aside the false background story from Boosel and all the others, it is evident that maximum advantage to the Saudi government was obtained by immediately selling the discs at a market premium.

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This will be included in the book:

Chapter 4 –Missing 1928 Double Eagles

A bag of gold was missing from the Philadelphia Mint. Secret Service agents looked high, low, and beneath the dust but $5,000 in double eagles had escaped.

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4 hours ago, RWB said:

This will be included in the book:

Chapter 4 –Missing 1928 Double Eagles

 

A bag of gold was missing from the Philadelphia Mint. Secret Service agents looked high, low, and beneath the dust but $5,000 in double eagles had escaped.

 

Hummm...I'm going to guess that these coins provided the gold used to strike the Saudi coins.  :)

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1 hour ago, Insider said:

Hummm...I'm going to guess that these coins provided the gold used to strike the Saudi coins.  :)

Nope. It's a separate chapter.

The book has 10 chapters, each on a different numismatic subject.

RE: "At this time, I'm under the impression that this anomaly is due to over polishing the dies in that area."

There were only about 91,272 four sovereign pieces struck in two batches. Not a lot of die maintenance would be expected. Further, the dies have little intermediate (coin style) relief - there are basically two surfaces: incuse and field (or 'table'). Almost all of the stippling is between these two surfaces in relief and would not be touched by polishing.

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Interesting.  On my examples, the letters are raised (sunken into die).  The marks inside the letters are inside the letters (lower) so they would also be into the die but not as deep.  They would be first to be affected by any polishing. 

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2 hours ago, Insider said:

Interesting.  On my examples, the letters are raised (sunken into die).  The marks inside the letters are inside the letters (lower) so they would also be into the die but not as deep.  They would be first to be affected by any polishing. 

Agreed. But there is almost no relief connecting the highest and lowest parts....it's more of a set of steps rather than a smooth incline as on a typical coin. Polishing could reduce the die field but still be far from affecting the stippling.

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1 hour ago, RWB said:

Agreed. But there is almost no relief connecting the highest and lowest parts....it's more of a set of steps rather than a smooth incline as on a typical coin. Polishing could reduce the die field but still be far from affecting the stippling.

Looks like I need to visit the bank again.  :(

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49 minutes ago, Insider said:

Looks like I need to visit the bank again.  :(

If you look at the upper surface of letters and the eagle, you'll see that they are flat, with incuse lines to delineate feathers, arrows, etc.;  there is no rounding or sculpting to anything. It is much like a 2-dimensional stamp, especially in the reverse cartouche. The obverse stippling breaks up the central field.

Edited by RWB
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12 hours ago, RWB said:

If you look at the upper surface of letters and the eagle, you'll see that they are flat, with incuse lines to delineate feathers, arrows, etc.;  there is no rounding or sculpting to anything. It is much like a 2-dimensional stamp, especially in the reverse cartouche. The obverse stippling breaks up the central field.

That's not the part of the coin that is polished out.

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1 hour ago, Insider said:

That's not the part of the coin that is polished out.

That's right. All of the relief except stippling is flat on top - they are simply raised characters. The stippling, as viewed on a disc, is too low for die polishing to have much effect. Think of taking a wooden cutout letter and gluing it to a flat board. That is the disc.

The Ford/Franklin fakes copy the original stippling but it is less pronounced and missing in places. Also, fine lines are ill defined and the entire thing is "soft."

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On 9/1/2020 at 12:07 PM, RWB said:

That's right. All of the relief except stippling is flat on top - they are simply raised characters. The stippling, as viewed on a disc, is too low for die polishing to have much effect. Think of taking a wooden cutout letter and gluing it to a flat board. That is the disc.

The Ford/Franklin fakes copy the original stippling but it is less pronounced and missing in places. Also, fine lines are ill defined and the entire thing is "soft."

If the stippling is low on the finished disk, where is it on the die

A. On the low part of the die where polishing is last to reach.

B. On the high part of the die that is polished out first?

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Largely intermediate but closer to the high portion of the die. But why would anyone selectively polish only the bounded central portions of letters, and next the eagle's legs. How would polishing weaken fine lines on the arrows and leaves? In any event I'm hoping to get additional information and photos from multiple sources that will illustrate the most common fakes.

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18 hours ago, zadok said:

fyi........if any non-ana members interested, in the recent oct "numismatist"....full page article on the Saudi 4-pound gold and counterfeit issues with close up photos....

This is the counterfeit referred to by Kleeberg et al. However, these were not related to oil rights - those coins were the silver pieces used to pay local employees. Also the comment "it is also possible that, like many counterfeit gold coins originating from the Middle East, this specimen was struck to mask the true source of someone’s wealth or to lend credence to a gold deposit at a bank or sale to a coin dealer" is misleading. Local middle-east counterfeits like the one shown were made to take advantage of the higher dollar value of gold in this form rather than in normal sovereigns. Four sovereign discs were delivered before the 1 sovereign version, and there was plenty of time for fakes to be made and traded of good or adulterated gold before the market reverted and Saudi Arabia made their own sovereign-weight pieces.

Edited by RWB
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On 8/31/2020 at 7:40 AM, RWB said:

This will be included in the book:  Chapter 4 –Missing 1928 Double Eagles A bag of gold was missing from the Philadelphia Mint. Secret Service agents looked high, low, and beneath the dust but $5,000 in double eagles had escaped.

Anything new beyond your Heritage write-up ?

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On 8/23/2020 at 5:41 PM, World Colonial said:

I'd be interested in a book on territorial gold.  I was just reading a Doug Winter article on Coin Week where he claims the last one was written in the 1980's.  Don't know how good it is, how expensive or how hard to buy.

Private gold coins and patterns of the United States by Donald H. Kagin. Published in 1981. There are three used copies on abebooks right now for around $25.

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Much has changed in 40 years....borrow a copy of the 1981 book, then await an updated/expanded version that should be out "soon."

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On 7/29/2021 at 8:30 PM, RWB said:

Much has changed in 40 years....borrow a copy of the 1981 book, then await an updated/expanded version that should be out "soon."

Aside from your book, not many new books on U.S. gold coins in recent years, including updates.  Less so Double Eagle books.

Akers/Ambio last updated in 2008 and Bowers Whitman Red Double Eagle book in 2004.

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On 8/23/2020 at 3:53 PM, RWB said:

Coin dealers are a problems because most lied to suit their purposes, destroyed information, manipulated events, engaged in shady deals, and otherwise were untrustworthy.

Yes, this, on steroids. And it still is that way for far more contemporary dealers than we’d like to believe.

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On 7/30/2021 at 12:25 AM, VKurtB said:

Yes, this, on steroids. And it still is that way for far more contemporary dealers than we’d like to believe.

Not all dealers.  And it's pretty easy to verify things nowadays compared to 20 or 40 years ago. 

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On 7/29/2021 at 1:15 AM, JoseDores said:

4-Seamless-Pattern-Spiral.thumb.png.46b838444db8fd8aa4e9c4f76347e832.png

@JoseDores  Oh, I get it. Sorry for the delay in properly crediting you with being the first member in NGC history -- pending official recognition by the Guinness Book of World Records -- of joining the premier TPGS in the world in the wee hours of the morning and posting a comment only two minutes later, with a margin of error of mere seconds.  

Welcome to the Forum!

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