Dueling TPG Experts - What Would You Do? 1 1

[VKurtB]

6 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

Based on that limited information, no, it does not. I give him the benefit of the doubt that he was providing an honest assessment.

So ICG had graded it 63 (I don’t know when), and NGC had just graded it 63 the day before, but it’s okay for an ICG employee or part-timer, knowing all that, to declare it 64 or 64+ if I give it back to ICG? Are we grading coins or having a grade auction? I submit to you that the marketplace has “punished” recent ICG slabs for a reason.

Edited August 10, 2020 by VKurtB

[MarkFeld]

2 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

So ICG had graded it 63 (I don’t know when), and NGC had just graded it 63 the day before, but it’s okay for an ICG employee or part-timer, knowing all that, to declare it 64 or 64+ if I give it back to ICG? Are we grading coins or having a grade auction? I submit to you that the marketplace has “punished” recent ICG slabs for a reason.

None of that tells me he was being other than honest.

 

Did you trust him when you asked for his opinion? And would you trust him if the coin had graded 64 or better, but think he was lying, just because it didn't grade that high?

[VKurtB]

4 minutes ago, MarkFeld said:

None of that tells me he was being other than honest.

 

Did you trust him when you asked for his opinion? And would you trust him if the coin had graded 64 or better, but think he was lying, just because it didn't grade that high?

I brought it to him because I wanted to show him older ICG grades and 2017 vintage NGC grades matched (again - this was my fifth time doing this).

 

What I learned is grade inflation is alive and well, at least at ICG.

Edited August 10, 2020 by VKurtB

[MarkFeld]

39 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

This is the baseless pejorative on-line term that has been leveled against me by those who I suspect do not appreciate, or perhaps do not understand, my brand of humor and take exception to my thoughts -- and support of underdogs who simply wish to get a second- third- or fourth opinion without being bullied and run out of town.  You know you are onto something when the numismatic experts among us, shoot down a proposal to simply present a thorn in our collective sides (some eight pages long) to another coin expert as a waste of time only to find out, after referral and consultation, that the expert was delighted to investigate the matter.  Troll?  I've been called worse.  And, Alex, thanks for making the Forum a place where we can all express our thoughts and feelings freely and without fear of unwarranted criticism.

P.S.  Regarding the matter of merger of TPGS...  though I don't deign to know the inside story, I suspect some of the same naysayers now said the same thing re Bowers joining with Stack's, i.e., "Never happen! You don't know what you're talking about! The government won't allow it!"   Really! They are businesses and businesses are run subject to bottom lines. Whether by hostile takeover or a simple determination that merger would be in their best interests, it can happen. You cannot rule it out. Law firms routinely reorganize, merge and dissolve because that's the way businesses survive. And with the Covid-19, we are entering uncharted territory. Anything can happen.

So there's no confusion on the part of anyone else reading this, I have not called you any names.

And no matter how expertly it may have been presented, please tell me what difference the reply from Wondercoin will make to the OP? Again, I don't think anything will sway him from his dreams. Please let me know if or when you learn otherwise.

I don't recall anyone saying Stack's and Bowers wouldn't merge and I know of no reason why PCGS and NGC would want or need to, even in times like these. Additionally, PCGS is publicly owned, while NGC isn't.

This will be my last post to this or any other thread in which I see mention made of that dime.

 

Edited August 10, 2020 by MarkFeld

[Just Bob]

16 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

 -- and support of underdogs who simply wish to get a second- third- or fourth opinion without being bullied and run out of town. 

I find it hard to believe that anyone who read through all of Richie's responses, with their argumentative, shouting, (yes, on the internet, that is what ALL CAPS means) smart-aleck, and sarcastic tones, ( I can cite examples if you don't want to go back and look for yourself) could honestly believe that he only wanted opinions. He received opinions from many knowledgeable people, and refused to believe any of them, continuing to argue in hopes of convincing everyone that he was right, and they were wrong. He stated he only wanted facts, but never offered any facts to support his own theory that the coin was sandblasted at the mint, which was his explanation for its appearance.  He also refused to resolve the situation by sending the coin in for authentication, blaming his inactivity on members of another forum having discouraged him.

I personally do not blame him for wanting to be certain that his coin was or was not something special. But, with the remedy to the situation so easily accessible, one wonders if he really wants to learn the truth.

[Zebo]

4 hours ago, Alex in PA. said:

Quintus, I do not believe you are a Troll.  I think you are very knowledgeable about this business and that you have been around it a long time.  Your writing reminds me of someone from the past.  

Or maybe from another planet! just kidding quintus.  Keep it up - it is refreshing.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Zebo

[Alex in PA.]

1 hour ago, Quintus Arrius said:

This is the baseless pejorative on-line term that has been leveled against me by those who I suspect do not appreciate, or perhaps do not understand, my brand of humor and take exception to my thoughts -- and support of underdogs who simply wish to get a second- third- or fourth opinion without being bullied and run out of town.  You know you are onto something when the numismatic experts among us, shoot down a proposal to simply present a thorn in our collective sides (some eight pages long) to another coin expert as a waste of time only to find out, after referral and consultation, that the expert was delighted to investigate the matter.  Troll?  I've been called worse.  And, Alex, thanks for making the Forum a place where we can all express our thoughts and feelings freely and without fear of unwarranted criticism.

P.S.  Regarding the matter of merger of TPGS...  though I don't deign to know the inside story, I suspect some of the same naysayers now said the same thing re Bowers joining with Stack's, i.e., "Never happen! You don't know what you're talking about! The government won't allow it!"   Really! They are businesses and businesses are run subject to bottom lines. Whether by hostile takeover or a simple determination that merger would be in their best interests, it can happen. You cannot rule it out. Law firms routinely reorganize, merge and dissolve because that's the way businesses survive. And with the Covid-19, we are entering uncharted territory. Anything can happen.

First:  Pay no attention to the ultra critics and the few who are suffering from a superiority complex.  It's only a few and you can just ignore them.  Every coin post here and ATS I always read and keep an open mind,  So please stick around.  I know I am not the only one on this forum who enjoys reading your comments.

Second:  I can't speculate on a No. 1 TPG and a No. 2 TPG merger but I, like you, wouldn't be shocked  In fact I wouldn't be shocked if we wound up with just one TPG period.  No seconds, thirds or left overs.  Not possible they say?  A one word answer to that.  CAC.  While there are a few other outfits that will put a sticker on your slab CAC truly has cornered the market.  The other sticker outfits just don't have the reputation CAC has and eventually the will fizzle out.  That is unless we all send our slabs in a get some man stickers you can't see the coin.   I'll just leave it:  Maybe they will and maybe they won't .  If it comes to it I can always got back to the Whitman or Dansco albums.    

PS:  I always try to be polite until someone comes along with a bad attitude.

Edited August 10, 2020 by Alex in PA.

[Insider]

3 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Does it have anything to do with ethics when I told him that it had just come out of an ICG MS63 slab, as I did on that occasion?

Who cares!  Ever hear of GRADFLATION?  Thousands of coins previously graded AU are now MS.   Thousands of MS coins also got an MS bump.  Coins once graded and cracked out ARE RAW.  Anything goes and they must stand on their own.  In case you did not know, anyone can find examples of over-graded, under-graded, and correctly graded coins by EVERY TPGS.  Most under-graded coins eventually get fixed.  The market makes sure most grades are OK; however, over-graded coins are still out there.   It should not surprise anyone that many coins get different grades BEFORE being finalized, slabbed,  and checked.  I'm a tough "technical grader."   I'm going to guess that my grade on a coin gets changed 8% to 12% of the time. 

Commenting on your "gem" is rather useless except to reveal some of the things involved with grading a coin.  One more thing, no grading service wants to put another service's junk into their holder.  If the ICG grader told you the coin was a 64, chances are he was correct.  I GRADE COINS.  I DON'T GRADE STORIES OR LABELS from ANY SERVICE including the one I presently work at!

[Insider]

3 hours ago, VKurtB said:

So ICG had graded it 63 (I don’t know when), and NGC had just graded it 63 the day before, but it’s okay for an ICG employee or part-timer, knowing all that, to declare it 64 or 64+ if I give it back to ICG? Are we grading coins or having a grade auction? I submit to you that the marketplace has “punished” recent ICG slabs for a reason.

I don't have any idea who you are but you are not showing much knowledge about what has been going on for decades!  Grade auction?  Grade auction?  Grade auction?  Why don't you research the history (what grade, what TPGS holder, and when slabbed) for many of our "famous rarities!"  

PS  AFAIK  neither NGC or ICG uses part timers to grade coins at shows for the public.  

[VKurtB]

6 minutes ago, Insider said:

Who cares!  Ever hear of GRADFLATION?  Thousands of coins previously graded AU are now MS.   Thousands of MS coins also got an MS bump.  Coins once graded and cracked out ARE RAW.  Anything goes and they must stand on their own.  In case you did not know, anyone can find examples of over-graded, under-graded, and correctly graded coins by EVERY TPGS.  Most under-graded coins eventually get fixed.  The market makes sure most grades are OK; however, over-graded coins are still out there.   It should not surprise anyone that many coins get different grades BEFORE being finalized, slabbed,  and checked.  I'm a tough "technical grader."   I'm going to guess that my grade on a coin gets changed 8% to 12% of the time. 

Commenting on your "gem" is rather useless except to reveal some of the things involved with grading a coin.  One more thing, no grading service wants to put another service's junk into their holder.  If the ICG grader told you the coin was a 64, chances are he was correct.  I GRADE COINS.  I DON'T GRADE STORIES OR LABELS from ANY SERVICE including the one I presently work at!

Two things: 1) Of course I’ve heard of gradeflation. I thought it was obvious that was what I was complaining about. No, it’s not okay with me, Skip. 2) I am aware you are a tough technical grader, as I am. That’s one reason I personally like your style. I have not been unpleasantly surprised by any coin’s grade in over three years now, anywhere. I am a tough bugger and I get frequent pleasant surprises.

[VKurtB]

7 minutes ago, Insider said:

NGC or ICG uses part timers to grade coins at shows for the public.

That may be true. I know ANACS does, because I have been recruited to do it. I turned them down.

Edited August 10, 2020 by VKurtB

[Insider]

3 hours ago, VKurtB said:

I brought it to him because I wanted to show him older ICG grades and 2017 vintage NGC grades matched (again - this was my fifth time doing this).

 

What I learned is grade inflation is alive and well, at least at ICG.

I'll try to make this clear.  NO MAJOR TPGS gives a second thought about how the others grade a coin.  However, for a collector, it matters a lot. 

BTW, grade inflation is alive and well in the ENTIRE coin market.  News Flash, one reason the first grading service in the US at INSAB went out of business was because they were too strict and did not evolve with the "changing market grading standards" after PCGS and then NGC were established.  

  

[VKurtB]

23 minutes ago, Insider said:

Who cares!  Ever hear of GRADFLATION?  Thousands of coins previously graded AU are now MS.   Thousands of MS coins also got an MS bump.  Coins once graded and cracked out ARE RAW.  Anything goes and they must stand on their own.  In case you did not know, anyone can find examples of over-graded, under-graded, and correctly graded coins by EVERY TPGS.  Most under-graded coins eventually get fixed.  The market makes sure most grades are OK; however, over-graded coins are still out there.   It should not surprise anyone that many coins get different grades BEFORE being finalized, slabbed,  and checked.  I'm a tough "technical grader."   I'm going to guess that my grade on a coin gets changed 8% to 12% of the time. 

Commenting on your "gem" is rather useless except to reveal some of the things involved with grading a coin.  One more thing, no grading service wants to put another service's junk into their holder.  If the ICG grader told you the coin was a 64, chances are he was correct.  I GRADE COINS.  I DON'T GRADE STORIES OR LABELS from ANY SERVICE including the one I presently work at!

What you should know is this: I looked at that very same 1916-D (obverse) Walker and in my opinion it was MS 63 on its BEST day. MS 64 would have needed a finalizer who had just fallen in love, and 64+ would have required someone who was giddy from winning the lottery. Fairly clean of contact marks but luster impaired. 

Edited August 10, 2020 by VKurtB

[VKurtB]

2 minutes ago, Insider said:

I'll try to make this clear.  NO MAJOR TPGS gives a second thought about how the others grade a coin.  However, for a collector, it matters a lot. 

BTW, grade inflation is alive and well in the ENTIRE coin market.  News Flash, one reason the first grading service in the US at INSAB went out of business was because they were too strict and did not evolve with the "changing market grading standards" after PCGS and then NGC were established.  

  

Does the Greysheet still publish the “discount fudge factor” they used to publish for the various TPGS?

[VKurtB]

19 minutes ago, Insider said:

I don't have any idea who you are but you are not showing much knowledge about what has been going on for decades!  Grade auction?  Grade auction?  Grade auction?  Why don't you research the history (what grade, what TPGS holder, and when slabbed) for many of our "famous rarities!"  

PS  AFAIK  neither NGC or ICG uses part timers to grade coins at shows for the public.  

Sure you do, Skip. I’m the guy at the next table over from you at Dallas at the ANA Legacy Series Interview. The guy shooting stills of the event.

[Alex in PA.]

3 hours ago, Zebo said:

Or maybe from another planet! just kidding quintus.  Keep it up - it is refreshing.

You get a LIKE for being nice.  Thanks.

[Insider]

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

What you should know is this: I looked at that very same 1916-D (obverse) Walker and in my opinion it was MS 63 on its BEST day. MS 64 would have needed a finalizer who had just fallen in love, and 64+ would have required someone who was giddy from winning the lottery. Fairly clean of contact marks but luster impaired. 

I would bet that the person who graded that Walker has seen just a few dozen more early walkers than you.  Nevertheless, since both of us are admittedly strict graders, I may have graded it 63 also - the first time it was sent in and if I were at the table when it was in the NGC slab as a 63.  Wink, wink.  

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Does the Greysheet still publish the “discount fudge factor” they used to publish for the various TPGS?

Not any more.  Only an ignorant collector or one who needed money would let a dealer steal a correctly graded coin in ANY SLAB including the fly-by-night services that occasionally get it "right."  Savvy collectors and dealers know there are bargains in non-top two TPGS slabs.  As you point out, the coins usually sell for less money!   Additionally, when I worked for PCI in the early 1990's, dealers would come to our table at every show to brag about all our red label (problem) coins they cracked and got straight graded. Buy the coin and not the label makes good sense.

2 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Sure you do, Skip. I’m the guy at the next table over from you at Dallas at the ANA Legacy Series Interview. The guy shooting stills of the event.

As best I can remember, the last time I was in Dallas was in the mid-1980's.   I was teaching a coin seminar at SMU.   

[VKurtB]

I’ve never owned a PCI coin. They’ve always felt “wrong” or “cheap” to me.

[Conder101]

13 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Does it have anything to do with ethics when I told him that it had just come out of an ICG MS63 slab, as I did on that occasion?

Did you tell him before or after he called it a 64?  And it still has nothing to do with ethics.  Have you never changed your mind on something upon re examination or reconsideration?

Edited August 11, 2020 by Conder101

[Henri Charriere]

5 hours ago, Conder101 said:

Did you tell him before or after he called it a 64?  And it still has nothing to do with ethics.  Have you never changed your mind on something upon re examination or reconsideration?

(Same questions I was asking myself...)

[VKurtB]

4 hours ago, Quintus Arrius said:

(Same questions I was asking myself...)

Both before AND after. We discussed it at length. I saw as a "whew" 63, and he was seeing 64 and up. I think he must have been high. When I brought it to Ft. Lauderdale, I was worried NGC would 62 it.

Edited August 11, 2020 by VKurtB

[Insider]

3 hours ago, VKurtB said:

Both before AND after. We discussed it at length. I saw as a "whew" 63, and he was seeing 64 and up. I think he must have been high. When I brought it to Ft. Lauderdale, I was worried NGC would 62 it.

Makes no difference.  NEWS FLASH:  When you send a coin to a TPGS in a slab for cross or upgrade, THEY KNOW WHAT THE OTHER SERVICE GRADED IT!    

Show me any TPGS slab.  I'll either agree with the grade (much of the time); point out what they missed or chose to ignore; or explain the coin's actual condition of preservation (technical grade) and then tell you why the coin's "market grade" was assigned. 

[Henri Charriere]

I don't know if I am reading this right or not but the hand-delivered submission of a "raw" coin in an open casket, sorry, gasket, suggests a purposeful attempt to skew or influence the grading proces.  I wonder if I would have been big enough to recuse myself from this blatant display of impropiety. 

[gmarguli]

13 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

I don't know if I am reading this right or not but the hand-delivered submission of a "raw" coin in an open casket, sorry, gasket, suggests a purposeful attempt to skew or influence the grading proces.  I wonder if I would have been big enough to recuse myself from this blatant display of impropiety. 

The person processing the submission likely takes the coin out of the gasket. The graders probably never know that it arrived in a gasket. Even assuming it survives into the grading room, the first grader is going to remove it from the gasket to examine the edge and the second grader will have no idea about the gasket. 

[VKurtB]

2 hours ago, Insider said:

Makes no difference.  NEWS FLASH:  When you send a coin to a TPGS in a slab for cross or upgrade, THEY KNOW WHAT THE OTHER SERVICE GRADED IT!    

Show me any TPGS slab.  I'll either agree with the grade (much of the time); point out what they missed or chose to ignore; or explain the coin's actual condition of preservation (technical grade) and then tell you why the coin's "market grade" was assigned. 

I'll make a mental note to show you my 1970-S small date in NGC MS66RD. I showed it to Angel Dee's, and he said it wouldn't cross at 66RD at PCGS. and 65 was only a maybe. I'll look forward to getting your opinion.

Edited August 11, 2020 by VKurtB

[Henri Charriere]

43 minutes ago, gmarguli said:

The person processing the submission likely takes the coin out of the gasket. The graders probably never know that it arrived in a gasket. Even assuming it survives into the grading room, the first grader is going to remove it from the gasket to examine the edge and the second grader will have no idea about the gasket. 

There is absolutely no reason to present a coin in other than a neutral generic flip that does not signal a prior determination had been made as to authentication and/or certification.

[VKurtB]

3 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

There is absolutely no reason to present a coin in other than a neutral generic flip that does not signal a prior determination had been made as to authentication and/or certification.

And if NGC offered a crossover on ICG coins, I'd have done it that way, but they don't. I've done this now 7 times total, and on all 7 occasions, the older ICG grade and the newer NGC grade matched exactly. My latest was a 1893-S Morgan that both had at VG8. It had been purchased RAW and sent to ICG originally. I trust older ICG grades just fine. Too much gradeflation recently.

Edited August 11, 2020 by VKurtB

[Crawtomatic]

On 8/10/2020 at 3:11 PM, Insider said:

NO MAJOR TPGS gives a second thought about how the others grade a coin.

I thought you stated earlier that any submitter for crossover of a lower tier TPG would be sorely disappointed if they didn't submit it raw?  I feel like that statement implies a level of caring that this statement discredits.

[VKurtB]

1 minute ago, CRAWTOMATIC said:

I thought you stated earlier that any submitter for crossover of a lower tier TPG would be sorely disappointed if they didn't submit it raw?  I feel like that statement implies a level of caring that this statement discredits.

+1, but I do make allowances for personal bias and degrees of reputation of various firms. I keep an NNC (a real basement firm) slabbed 1960 Franklin half that I swear is UNDERGRADED, just to remind myself that it CAN happen. Not often, but...

Edited August 11, 2020 by VKurtB

[Alex in PA.]

41 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

+1, but I do make allowances for personal bias and degrees of reputation of various firms. I keep an NNC (a real basement firm) slabbed 1960 Franklin half that I swear is UNDERGRADED, just to remind myself that it CAN happen. Not often, but...

I keep a1897 Morgan that was Photo Graded MS64/64 by IGA in 1986.  I believe it would get an NGC MS 65 today.  IGA I think only lasted 86 an 87.  I got rid of all my Photo Grades but kept 5 ANACS and IGA.  IGA didn't make an impression on many people.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Alex in PA.