Could this be a new discovery of a Roosevelt dime with a special matte finish ?!?!?!
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444 posts in this topic

19 hours ago, Insider said:

This thread is going nowhere at the moment.  While we are waiting to see what you are going to do next, will you please tell us the story of how you acquired your coin?  Thanks

Please excuse the slow reply ... I've been trying to respond to all the questions as best I can . But the way I acquired the coin was mentioned above in my other comment .

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4 minutes ago, RichieRich2020 said:

But I actually have a ton of other environmental damage dimes and dimes completely missing their clad layers ....

A ton? A TON!  And you farmed out the Frankenstein concession to Ratzie33?  Makes sense. How's business? B t w, If you were new to coin collecting a few years ago why would a 1943 penny look odd enough to notice if it was copper like everything else in the pile? As Alice in Wonderland said, this is getting "curiouser and curiouser!"

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7 minutes ago, RichieRich2020 said:

Please excuse the slow reply ... I've been trying to respond to all the questions as best I can . But the way I acquired the coin was mentioned above in my other comment .

Thanks but I don't have the time to read thru the nonsense looking for it.  

I have a challenge for all members.  Let's see how many days all of us (except the OP) can go with out posting anymore to this discussion.  I bet none of you can even go two days.  Bets?   

The contest starts now (for me)  BUT each of you get one more post today to start your part of the challenge.  Who is going to crack first by responding to the OP's next comments?  I think I know which of you will take the OP's bait?

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22 minutes ago, RichieRich2020 said:

Well it clearly sounds like a very flawed way of grading and authenticating coins if you ask me . Because everyone knows that if you took a PCGS MS 67 coin and a MS 66 coin and removed both their labels to allow all the PCGS graders to say which coin was which ... then it would simply PROVE that all the grades of almost every coin is nothing more then GUESSING . Which is why I personally think that all serious collectors need to collectively come together and appeal to the grading companies for a better and more accurate way of authenticating their coins through some form of BASIC TESTING TECHNIQUES , as opposed to these PREHISTORIC GRADING METHODS that you mentioned . I don't think it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that in my humble opinion . Which is what I explained to the PCGS head I spoke to after they graded one of my coin for almost $200 ... It's apparent to me that if anyone is spending that type of change for a coin grade that they should clearly want a more accurate and precise way of doing so but then again that is just my humble opinion on the matter .... Because I for one prefer accurate conclusions over EXPERT GUESSING any day ....

Good grief, again no equivalence.  One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

The TPG grade is nothing more than an opinion, within current grading standards which aren't even fixed.   Whether your coin is or isn't what you claim is partly a finding of fact, as numerous posters (including me) in more posts than I can even remember have already told you.

Since I have replied to this post, I might as well reply to your last one. You can give up the idea that the market is going to evaluate your coin as you want as it's never going to happen.  It's like waiting for hell to freeze over.

It also has nothing to do with me disagreeing with you (though I do) because I'd never in a million years pay more than a nominal premium for your coin anyway and only if I could sell it to someone else for more.

To do this, you need to start by getting it in an NGC or PCGS holder as something other than a regular business strike.  If you do that, then the market will accept it as "special", at least to a point.

To get it accepted by NGC or PCGS, you're going to need evidence that it was struck by the US Mint as it looks now.  It isn't going to happen as a result of any "testing".

Where are you going to get this evidence?  Most likely only from the US Mint if it exists where there is a 99%++++ probability that it doesn't because you are wrong.  You can ask them for everything the Denver Mint has for 1993 dimes and if they don't give you what you want, you can file a Freedom of Information Act Request.  Never done that but someone else might know.  Of course, I don't believe you will ever get what you want no matter what you ask for because the evidence doesn't exist since the coin was never struck as you claim.

Earlier, you alluded to prior new discoveries.  Since I have never heard of anything remotely equivalent for any modern US circulating coin, again I see little equivalence.  What the required evidence is I don' know but infer it's situation specific.  In the example I gave you of myself, it would have been from the South African Mint, not some "test".  Generically though, I'd expect the standard to be a lot higher on a modern US coin than an older one from somewhere else though I might be wrong about that.

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37 minutes ago, RichieRich2020 said:

This one's so original I must admit .... I almost laughed a little myself . 

Fifteen pages now. Forget legs and wings. This one's got rocket propulsion!

A lot of talk re "real grading" and "basic grading techniques." I am perusing the latest auction catalog from Paris and their upper tier grading scheme gives one pause:  SUP (Superbe) is, according to them, the U.S. equivalent of a range of from AU-55 to MS-62;  SPL (Splendide) is equivalent to MS-63 and MS-64;  and FDC (Fleur De Coin) is equivalent to a range of from MS-65 to MS-70!  I believe the folks over there are amused with our fixation over literally scores of different grades where they make do with six basic grade groupings.  Oh, and there are two more: BE (Belle Epreuve) = Proof and BU (Brillant Universel) = to Brilliant Uncirculated. It is not clear to me why the latter category is superior to Proof though I imagine one of our learned resident experts can provide a clarification.

Edited by Quintus Arrius
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20 minutes ago, Quintus Arrius said:

Fifteen pages now. Forget legs and wings. This one's got rocket propulsion!

A lot of talk re "real grading" and "basic grading techniques." I am perusing the latest auction catalog from Paris and their upper tier grading scheme gives one pause:  SUP (Superbe) is, according to them, the U.S. equivalent of a range of from AU-55 to MS-62;  SPL (Splendide) is equivalent to MS-63 and MS-64;  and FDC (Fleur De Coin) is equivalent to a range of from MS-65 to MS-70!  I believe the folks over there are amused with our fixation over literally scores of different grades where they make do with basic six grade groupings.  Oh, and there are two more: BE (Belle Epreuve) = Proof and BU (Brillant Universel) = to Brilliant Uncirculated. It is not clear to me why the latter category is superior to Proof though I imagine one of our learned resident experts can provide a clarification.

So to put it in more simple terms ... It sounds like what you are trying to say is that Paris grading scale is less extravagant then the grading scale we have at our disposal ... Which to me means to me that they too can certainly probably use a little more vamping with their techniques for grading coins for a little more ACCURACY as well . Infact change is good alot of times if you ask me.  Of course nothings ever perfect but in the big scheme of things things can always be added or tweaked a little bit for more ACCURACY especially for those people who are actually paying for a service which I'm sure JUST ABOUT EVERY COLLECTOR WOULD APPRECIATE IT .  But i wonder if anybody else really cares about important things like that as I do . 

Edited by RichieRich2020
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12 minutes ago, RichieRich2020 said:

So to put it in more simple terms ... It sounds like what you are trying to say is that Paris grading scale is less extravagant then the grading scale we have at our disposal ... Which to me means they can certainly probably use a little more vamping with their techniques for grading coins for a little more ACCURACY as well . Infact change is good alot of times if you ask me.  Of course nothings ever perfect but in the big scheme of things things can always be added or tweaked a little bit for more ACCURACY especially for those people who are actually paying for a service which I'm sure JUST ABOUT EVERY COLLECTOR WOULD APPRECIATE IT .  But i wonder if anybody else really cares about important things like that as I do . 

First you need to learn this - authentication is not grading and grading is not authentication. Grading is often controversial. Authentication doesn’t need to be. It’s more binary, aka yes/no.

 

Since you found your 1993-D dime in a roll of cents, you’re already 9 cents ahead. If I were you, I’d take that profit and run. It’s the best you’ll do with this coin. 

Edited by VKurtB
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25 minutes ago, World Colonial said:

Good grief, again no equivalence.  One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

The TPG grade is nothing more than an opinion, within current grading standards which aren't even fixed.   Whether your coin is or isn't what you claim is partly a finding of fact, as numerous posters (including me) in more posts than I can even remember have already told you.

Since I have replied to this post, I might as well reply to your last one. You can give up the idea that the market is going to evaluate your coin as you want as it's never going to happen.  It's like waiting for hell to freeze over.

It also has nothing to do with me disagreeing with you (though I do) because I'd never in a million years pay more than a nominal premium for your coin anyway and only if I could sell it to someone else for more.

To do this, you need to start by getting it in an NGC or PCGS holder as something other than a regular business strike.  If you do that, then the market will accept it as "special", at least to a point.

To get it accepted by NGC or PCGS, you're going to need evidence that it was struck by the US Mint as it looks now.  It isn't going to happen as a result of any "testing".

Where are you going to get this evidence?  Most likely only from the US Mint if it exists where there is a 99%++++ probability that it doesn't because you are wrong.  You can ask them for everything the Denver Mint has for 1993 dimes and if they don't give you what you want, you can file a Freedom of Information Act Request.  Never done that but someone else might know.  Of course, I don't believe you will ever get what you want no matter what you ask for because the evidence doesn't exist since the coin was never struck as you claim.

Earlier, you alluded to prior new discoveries.  Since I have never heard of anything remotely equivalent for any modern US circulating coin, again I see little equivalence.  What the required evidence is I don' know but infer it's situation specific.  In the example I gave you of myself, it would have been from the South African Mint, not some "test".  Generically though, I'd expect the standard to be a lot higher on a modern US coin than an older one from somewhere else though I might be wrong about that.

Well as i mentioned before I know that there will always be people such as yourself who strongly believe that they know the answer without absolutely any testing of any kind and while at the same time ADMITTING that these are just opinions and guesses and that is just the way it is . And coming from an YOUNG BULL TO AN OLD BULL . Your way of thinking and doing things is just that.  YOUR WAY . NOT MINES . And it's not about being right or wrong for me . It's about the fact that no one seems to truly care about GETTING AN ACCURATE ANSWER TO HOW THE COINS FINISH WAS CREATED AND BY WHOM ... And I for one certainly do not look forward to sending a coin in to be authentic simply to be told that the coin is just altered because we think it is . And because that is just simply the way these things are done because they don't want to do testing or something as basic as comparisons if there is literally no reports of another coin in the world like it ... But hopefully I won't have to go far to breach these mundane methods ... Because I for one love collecting coins and will always desire ACCURACY OVER OPINIONS ... And believe me It's nothing personal . I am who I am and always will be 

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58 minutes ago, Insider said:

Thanks but I don't have the time to read thru the nonsense looking for it.  

I have a challenge for all members.  Let's see how many days all of us (except the OP) can go with out posting anymore to this discussion.  I bet none of you can even go two days.  Bets?   

The contest starts now (for me)  BUT each of you get one more post today to start your part of the challenge.  Who is going to crack first by responding to the OP's next comments?  I think I know which of you will take the OP's bait?

Man it seems like some of you guys are becoming very creative in trying to get everyone to ignore the topic ... And it really makes a grown person wonder What in the political heck is that really all about . Is there some kind of PERSONAL GRUDGE I'm not aware of . Or is someone in a secret rat race on how many comments a particular post is getting ....

Well please allow me to ease your secret frustration and grudge INSIDER ... I do not care and I'm not in any competition . I only care about my coin and everything I can do to get it accurately authentic if you haven't figured that out by now . 

Oh and one last serious question .... Do you have like a quarter or coin somewhere that someone hurt your feelings about ????

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Authentication will (not “might”, “will”) require documentary evidence from the United States Mint of the type that @RWB does with his archive searching. And NOBODY else will do it for you. You have the personal (YOU, as an individual, not somebody else) duty to do that research. Get hopping. No grading firm will do it, and neither will the United States Mint. It’s all you, pal. Nobody else. 

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3 hours ago, RichieRich2020 said:

So to put it in more simple terms ... It sounds like what you are trying to say is that Paris grading scale is less extravagant then the grading scale we have at our disposal ... Which to me means to me that they too can certainly probably use a little more vamping with their techniques for grading coins for a little more ACCURACY as well . Infact change is good alot of times if you ask me.  Of course nothings ever perfect but in the big scheme of things things can always be added or tweaked a little bit for more ACCURACY especially for those people who are actually paying for a service which I'm sure JUST ABOUT EVERY COLLECTOR WOULD APPRECIATE IT .  But i wonder if anybody else really cares about important things like that as I do . 

Another example of your ignorance. 

US grading isn't more "accurate" than European, it is more granular.  The less polite way of saying it is that since US collecting became financialized starting in the 1970's, US grading standards place emphasis on trivial numismatic minutia which only has significance because of money and so that US collectors can pretend there is "rarity" in what they collect when there isn't.  It's a pure contrivance.

The same applies to the "modifiers" mostly used on US circulating coinage such as recognized strike designations.  This "special finish" on your coin (assuming you are correct) fits this description.

These "modifiers" mostly if not entirely became prevalent in US collecting to create a challenge which otherwise doesn't exist.  Without it, the most widely collected series can be completed in one day in any quality, the only exception being if arbitrary or narrow enough criteria is applied.  

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3 hours ago, World Colonial said:

Another example of your ignorance. 

US grading isn't more "accurate" than European, it is more granular.  The less polite way of saying it is that since US collecting became financialized starting in the 1970's, US grading standards place emphasis on trivial numismatic minutia which only has significance because of money and so that US collectors can pretend there is "rarity" in what they collect when there isn't.  It's a pure contrivance.

The same applies to the "modifiers" mostly used on US circulating coinage such as recognized strike designations.  This "special finish" on your coin (assuming you are correct) fits this description.

These "modifiers" mostly if not entirely became prevalent in US collecting to create a challenge which otherwise doesn't exist.  Without it, the most widely collected series can be completed in one day in any quality, the only exception being if arbitrary or narrow enough criteria is applied.  

Well I was actually speaking more in regards on how coins are graded in a technical sense not about who is or isnt more ACCURATE between the both of them . But thank you for your opinion and knowledge on the subject I'm sure I could always learn more as we all can and so there's really no need for any of the name calling ... infact I'm sure that my knowledge is not as vast as yours in light of the fact that I've only been collecting for about 6 years but I honestly don't care about that since I'm not competing on my knowledge of the coin grading process . It's like I said earlier . I simply just want to be certain that any coin I submit for grading and authenticating has the most accurate examination and testing humanly possible that's all . And from the sounds of it in today's coin industry it sounds like that would probably never be possible . Especially if people think the way that you say yourself . No disrespect intended . I think that in-spite of everything I've said the point I've been trying to make has been totally missed or totally overlooked and therefore i probably need to stop waisting my time trying to point that out .  But again thank you for your excellent show of your knowledge in the field . Will try to make sure to make a mental note of it

Edited by RichieRich2020
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10 hours ago, RichieRich2020 said:

Man it seems like some of you guys are becoming very creative in trying to get everyone to ignore the topic ..

Not the topic.  You.  

 

And with that, I accept the challenge by Insider.  

Edited by Morpheus1967
Accepting the Challenge
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 13 hours ago, RichieRich2020 said:

Man it seems like some of you guys are becoming very creative in trying to get everyone to ignore the topic ..

 

You have ignored all of the opinions, so why can't we start ignoring the topic!!! 

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In case the OP would like a hint at what kind of research lies ahead of him, I provide this link:

https://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/104.html

The category he needs is 104.5.5 - Records of the U.S. Mint, Denver, CO

Whip out the old checkbook, sir, this ain't free.

Edited by VKurtB
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5 minutes ago, VKurtB said:

In case the OP would like a hint at what kind of research lies ahead of him, I provide this link:

https://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/104.html

The category he needs is 104.5.5 - Records of the U.S. Mint, Denver, CO

Whip out the old checkbook, sir, this ain't free.

Thanks for the link.

Wait, I thought this research was all included in the US modern tier grading fee, $11 the last time I checked.  You mean it isn't? :)

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1 minute ago, World Colonial said:

Thanks for the link.

Wait, I thought this research was all included in the US modern tier grading fee, $11 the last time I checked.  You mean it isn't? :)

You're a naughty fellow, you are.

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13 minutes ago, Judy B said:

I have a dime that is identical to the one in the pictures.  

Welcome to the forum.
Your dime is worth 10 cents and OK to spend.

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6 hours ago, MarkFeld said:

Welcome to the forum.
Your dime is worth 10 cents and OK to spend.

Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves here.  When Judy in her very first post feels confident enough to say her dime is "identical" to that of the OP's, I have two crucial questions: in what way? And does it include the off-color staining "WonderCoin" referred to as a "diagnostic marker"?  I would not expect Judy to understand any of this -- and I am impressed she went through the entire thread suggesting she feels she is on to something (not to mention the promise of Ratzie33's possible vindication) but I would still like to know the particular distinguishing characteristic she observed which led her to believe her dime is more than just similar to Ratzie33's.

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